The Liberal Gun Club Forum

This is going to be a long and possibly preachy post. I'm not trying to be preachy, but I want to share some thoughts with you. You can agree with me, or disagree with me, but let's keep it civil please. Or you can hit the [Next Post] button now.

And yes, I'm afraid I'm going to name names. It's unavoidable. Sorry.

The other day Neotrotsky posted a video of himself shooting a J-22 pistol with some friends at the range. The quality was not good and there were a lot of shadows. I thought I saw that he "flagged" the camera man at least once, maybe twice, during the video.

This is the thread http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... f=7&t=7907

But I don't really want to talk about the video. I want to talk about Internet Forums, Tone and Egos. And gun safety.

I made what I thought was an innocuous comment on the thread - to wit:

Hey neo, not to be a jerk or anything, but it looks like you were kind of waving that thing around a bit. Maybe even pointing it at your friends (by accident...)

Looking at my comment again I admit that it could be read a little passive-agressively. It wasn't meant that way (really) but I am from Minnesota, and we invented passive-agressive here, so it's kind of ingrained.

What I expected as an answer was one of two things:

1. An admission that perhaps his muzzle safety was a little lax. (I didn't really expect this one.)
2. A suggestion that I was mistaken in what I saw because the video quality was poor.

What I got was some sideways hostility (yes, I am the child of an adult alcoholic. I know the lingo.) It sort of acknowledged that I might have seen something and then he called me a prick.

Well, all rounds were exausted and, yes, I didn't remove the magazine so I do aknowledge error there. Otherwise, I don't see the glaring problem that prompts criticism. I'll make sure to consult the resident safety officer on here (which you seem to have taken upon yourself to be) before placing any more vids.

But, you do come off sounding like a prick. Just sayin'... (see, by adding that it makes me sound like I'm trying to be nice as well)

I followed up with an attempt at some dialog about gun safety. I'm not going to quote the whole thing here, you can go read it if you like.

What I got back was overt hostility. I was accused of being self-rightious, and he accused me of painting him as a "crazed drunk hillbilly". He closed by telling me to keep my opinions to myself. He also called me a condescending prick in a later post. At no point did I call him any names.

I responded with a flip answer "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

Neotrotsky thought I was calling him a bitch. That was not my intent in the slightest as anyone who as read Shakespear might realize. What I was saying was that he was making an awful lot of noise trying to deflect my slight suggestion that he should perhaps watch his muzzle direction.

People who react with anger and hostility to critism generally do so because there is a grain of truth in it that they don't want to acknowledge.

But enough about hostility and ego - I've been on enough internet forums that I know it's par for the course - and on to the preachy part.

Gun Safety.

We all understand that guns are dangerous. At least I hope we all do. But, some of us, myself included, tend to talk about our "new toy" when we get a new gun. And I think this is a bad way to think about guns.

Guns are fun. Guns are interesting. Guns are exciting. What guns are not are toys. When we think of our guns as our "toys" I think that tends to fool our brains into a sense of security. What toy could possibly be dangerous?

I am sort of new to shooting. I used to shoot when I was a teenager - I had a .22 rifle and a .22 pistol at our cabin in Montana. Then I stopped for a long time. Now I am shooting again - mainly because some friends of mine have guns - and I'm relearning a lot.

One of the things that I am working hard on is ingraining the four rules into my gun handling. We all know what they are, but I'm going to list them here anyway:

1. The gun is always loaded.
2. Never point your gun at anything you don't want to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

In my criticism of Neotrotsky's video I pointed out that I thought I saw him point the gun at his friends.

This is a violation of rule number 2.

Part of his response was, and I quote here to make my point "Well, all rounds were exausted and, yes, I didn't remove the magazine so I do aknowledge error there."

This is a violation of rule number 1.

Neotrotsky accused me of wanting to be the "resident safety officer" and he made it sound like that was a bad thing. I certainly don't want to be the resident safety officer, but on the other hand, I would like us all to be safe. And how could it possibly be a bad thing to have a safety officer?

Perhaps some people think gun safety is overrated and that the four rules are for other people. All I know is that I don't want to be on the same range as them.

If I posted a video of myself shooting and it had something in it that looked unsafe I would certainly hope one of you would point it out. I might get annoyed, sure. But I would also think about what I was doing a little more carefully.

Thus endith the lesson.

Ultravox wrote:This is going to be a long and possibly preachy post. I'm not trying to be preachy, but I want to share some thoughts with you. You can agree with me, or disagree with me, but let's keep it civil please. Or you can hit the [Next Post] button now.

And yes, I'm afraid I'm going to name names. It's unavoidable. Sorry.

The other day Neotrotsky posted a video of himself shooting a J-22 pistol with some friends at the range. The quality was not good and there were a lot of shadows. I thought I saw that he "flagged" the camera man at least once, maybe twice, during the video.

This is the thread http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... f=7&t=7907

But I don't really want to talk about the video. I want to talk about Internet Forums, Tone and Egos. And gun safety.

I made what I thought was an innocuous comment on the thread - to wit:

Hey neo, not to be a jerk or anything, but it looks like you were kind of waving that thing around a bit. Maybe even pointing it at your friends (by accident...)

Looking at my comment again I admit that it could be read a little passive-agressively. It wasn't meant that way (really) but I am from Minnesota, and we invented passive-agressive here, so it's kind of ingrained.

What I expected as an answer was one of two things:

1. An admission that perhaps his muzzle safety was a little lax. (I didn't really expect this one.)
2. A suggestion that I was mistaken in what I saw because the video quality was poor.

What I got was some sideways hostility (yes, I am the child of an adult alcoholic. I know the lingo.) It sort of acknowledged that I might have seen something and then he called me a prick.

Well, all rounds were exausted and, yes, I didn't remove the magazine so I do aknowledge error there. Otherwise, I don't see the glaring problem that prompts criticism. I'll make sure to consult the resident safety officer on here (which you seem to have taken upon yourself to be) before placing any more vids.

But, you do come off sounding like a prick. Just sayin'... (see, by adding that it makes me sound like I'm trying to be nice as well)

I followed up with an attempt at some dialog about gun safety. I'm not going to quote the whole thing here, you can go read it if you like.

What I got back was overt hostility. I was accused of being self-rightious, and he accused me of painting him as a "crazed drunk hillbilly". He closed by telling me to keep my opinions to myself. He also called me a condescending prick in a later post. At no point did I call him any names.

I responded with a flip answer "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

Neotrotsky thought I was calling him a bitch. That was not my intent in the slightest as anyone who as read Shakespear might realize. What I was saying was that he was making an awful lot of noise trying to deflect my slight suggestion that he should perhaps watch his muzzle direction.

People who react with anger and hostility to critism generally do so because there is a grain of truth in it that they don't want to acknowledge.

But enough about hostility and ego - I've been on enough internet forums that I know it's par for the course - and on to the preachy part.

Gun Safety.

We all understand that guns are dangerous. At least I hope we all do. But, some of us, myself included, tend to talk about our "new toy" when we get a new gun. And I think this is a bad way to think about guns.

Guns are fun. Guns are interesting. Guns are exciting. What guns are not are toys. When we think of our guns as our "toys" I think that tends to fool our brains into a sense of security. What toy could possibly be dangerous?

I am sort of new to shooting. I used to shoot when I was a teenager - I had a .22 rifle and a .22 pistol at our cabin in Montana. Then I stopped for a long time. Now I am shooting again - mainly because some friends of mine have guns - and I'm relearning a lot.

One of the things that I am working hard on is ingraining the four rules into my gun handling. We all know what they are, but I'm going to list them here anyway:

1. The gun is always loaded.
2. Never point your gun at anything you don't want to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

In my criticism of Neotrotsky's video I pointed out that I thought I saw him point the gun at his friends.

This is a violation of rule number 2.

Part of his response was, and I quote here to make my point "Well, all rounds were exausted and, yes, I didn't remove the magazine so I do aknowledge error there."

This is a violation of rule number 1.

Neotrotsky accused me of wanting to be the "resident safety officer" and he made it sound like that was a bad thing. I certainly don't want to be the resident safety officer, but on the other hand, I would like us all to be safe. And how could it possibly be a bad thing to have a safety officer?

Perhaps some people think gun safety is overrated and that the four rules are for other people. All I know is that I don't want to be on the same range as them.

If I posted a video of myself shooting and it had something in it that looked unsafe I would certainly hope one of you would point it out. I might get annoyed, sure. But I would also think about what I was doing a little more carefully.

Thus endith the lesson.

Ultravox,

I sent you a PM/

Really? Have the need to stir things up AGAIN?! For not "starting anything" and "not naming names" you sure do have this gift for actually naming names and being a dick about it.... And, by insisting on teaching me "a lesson". You are quite focused on proving that you're superior in everything from argument to 'gun safety' that you really don't give two shits how irritating or disrespectful you have to be to get the point across that you're better than someone else.

We get it: You're better than me because you found a way to criticize a video I posted. It is what it is, and I do NOT find it as dangerous, life threatening or damaging to all of Liberal gun owner-dom as you do. If I wanted or felt the need to defend what I posted, I wouldn't of posted it. If you have a problem with it, say "I don't like it" and act like a civil grown up instead of a trolling little internet bitch.

No, that wasn't civil but I'm just sick of the preteen attitude. Grow the fuck up and get over it. And, if you're not going to "mention names", then don't. Don't play the passive aggressive shit with me. I'm not impressed by wannabe preachers. I have had PLENTY of reason to go on otherwise elsewhere, but was asked respectfully by others on here to drop it, which I did. Seems like you don't want to. So, hopefully your ego or my tirade will get this damn thing locked and we can all go one with life.

neotrotsky wrote:Really? Have the need to stir things up AGAIN?! For not "starting anything" and "not naming names" you sure do have this gift for actually naming names and being a dick about it.... And, by insisting on teaching me "a lesson". You are quite focused on proving that you're superior in everything from argument to 'gun safety' that you really don't give two shits how irritating or disrespectful you have to be to get the point across that you're better than someone else.

This strikes me as a baseless accusation ultimately grounded on insecurity on your behalf. Do you always react this way when people point out dangerous things you do?

We get it: You're better than me because you found a way to criticize a video I posted. It is what it is, and I do NOT find it as dangerous, life threatening or damaging to all of Liberal gun owner-dom as you do. If I wanted or felt the need to defend what I posted, I wouldn't of posted it. If you have a problem with it, say "I don't like it" and act like a civil grown up instead of a trolling little internet bitch.

Do you not find it as dangerous? You would have probably been in a lot of trouble if you did that where I shoot (assuming the range officer would not kick you off the range).

And since when was calling someone a "trolling little internet bitch" acting like a "civil grown up?" You are clearly projecting your own issues onto the OP here.

No, that wasn't civil but I'm just sick of the preteen attitude. Grow the fuck up and get over it. And, if you're not going to "mention names", then don't. Don't play the passive aggressive shit with me. I'm not impressed by wannabe preachers. I have had PLENTY of reason to go on otherwise elsewhere, but was asked respectfully by others on here to drop it, which I did. Seems like you don't want to. So, hopefully your ego or my tirade will get this damn thing locked and we can all go one with life.

Or maybe you could learn from the incident and brush up on your gun safety instead of going off on an epic rage spree riddled with hypocrisy and psychological projection. I wasn't expecting people on this forum to handle criticism in a manner similar to how teabaggers handle it.

7N6Wolf wrote:

neotrotsky wrote:Really? Have the need to stir things up AGAIN?! For not "starting anything" and "not naming names" you sure do have this gift for actually naming names and being a dick about it.... And, by insisting on teaching me "a lesson". You are quite focused on proving that you're superior in everything from argument to 'gun safety' that you really don't give two shits how irritating or disrespectful you have to be to get the point across that you're better than someone else.

This strikes me as a baseless accusation ultimately grounded on insecurity on your behalf. Do you always react this way when people point out dangerous things you do?

We get it: You're better than me because you found a way to criticize a video I posted. It is what it is, and I do NOT find it as dangerous, life threatening or damaging to all of Liberal gun owner-dom as you do. If I wanted or felt the need to defend what I posted, I wouldn't of posted it. If you have a problem with it, say "I don't like it" and act like a civil grown up instead of a trolling little internet bitch.

Do you not find it as dangerous? You would have probably been in a lot of trouble if you did that where I shoot (assuming the range officer would not kick you off the range).

And since when was calling someone a "trolling little internet bitch" acting like a "civil grown up?" You are clearly projecting your own issues onto the OP here.

No, that wasn't civil but I'm just sick of the preteen attitude. Grow the fuck up and get over it. And, if you're not going to "mention names", then don't. Don't play the passive aggressive shit with me. I'm not impressed by wannabe preachers. I have had PLENTY of reason to go on otherwise elsewhere, but was asked respectfully by others on here to drop it, which I did. Seems like you don't want to. So, hopefully your ego or my tirade will get this damn thing locked and we can all go one with life.

Or maybe you could learn from the incident and brush up on your gun safety instead of going off on an epic rage spree riddled with hypocrisy and psychological projection. I wasn't expecting people on this forum to handle criticism in a manner similar to how teabaggers handle it.

Whatev. Call me a Teabagger or hypocrite or whatever makes you feel superior at the end of the night. I'm just not a fan of the armchair expert syndrome that comes with the internet (as was mentioned on other threads). I just don't prefer the passive aggressive game playing.

Besides: My propensity to not mince words and to dispense with the civility filter is considered an endearing trait in many circles The only difference is that right now, I'm not interested in being friendly. I'm hardly a passive person as well.

My problem isn't what he says. It's how he says it, adds as much personal opinion and commentary with backhanded passiveness and continues to beat the dead horse with the comfort that his online anonymity gives him. Especially when other members have mentioned such actions are rather irritating. I'm not interested in sounding mature and trying to impress people on an internet forum who already have pre-conceived opinions on everything. So, why filter? Besides, he wants a reaction so why not give the people what they want? At least he now knows exactly where I stand.

As David Bryne once said "Say it once, why say it again?"

So, that's about it.

This should've stayed on that thread.

We as individuals have the responsibility to be our own safety officers. When one see's one fail to provide his own safety and safety of others, it's his duty to point it out. We're not talking about a religious or political view, this is an act of which should and can be avoided. Neo, you've become a friend to me here, but come on man, you must see Ultra's point and concern. Forget about right or wrong on the thread and even my place here, all I can see is what's on the video. It's a combination of carelessness and mishandling of a firearm, I've done it myself and been corrected. Shoot on brother, and don't look at anyone as trying to be higher or better, just a team of bloggers who have an interest and who like to share ideas and views. Hell someday we may even meet.

neotrotsky wrote: We get it: You're better than me because you found a way to criticize a video I posted. It is what it is, and I do NOT find it as dangerous, life threatening or damaging to all of Liberal gun owner-dom as you do. If I wanted or felt the need to defend what I posted, I wouldn't of posted it. If you have a problem with it, say "I don't like it" and act like a civil grown up instead of a trolling little internet bitch.

You know, this is funny. You say that if I have a problem with the video I should say "I don't like it" and act like a civil grown up.

I never said I didn't like the video. I merely pointed out, in a pretty civil grown up way, that I thought you might have been waving the gun around a little bit.

If anyone in this conversation has been uncivil and un-grownup it's not me.

I don't think I'm better than you. I'm not trying to prove that I'm smarter, safer, better looking or anything like that. I merely pointed out something that I saw as an attempt to make us all safer.

You appear to have a very large and angry chip on your shoulder.

I'm done arguing with you about this. I will not respond any further to this event as it is obvious that you are not reading what I am saying but for some reason are reading it as a personal attack. Which it is not.

I started this up in a new thread because I wanted to try and have some dialog about gun safety.

If we can't have a dialog about gun safety without people getting pissy, then I'll close this thread and give up.

Vox, I think we all get the point here, including Neo. There were obvious errors, which have been acknowledged by your target. That was addressed in the other thread. Starting another thread in response, in and of itself, is fine; and the subject of safety cannot be overstated in most cases. However, starting a new thread specifically to call out someone you've already called out, particularly with the tone of the language you've used can be seen as little other than a personal attack on the subject whom you've named. Most people don't respond well to being publicly called out; it's a fact, get used to it. Might I suggest next time sending a pm and allowing the poster to amend his post with a disclaimer stating that he fucked up in the video, and not to take his example?

I think your point has been made. Neo, did you learn your lesson? Good. Let's move on, perhaps by starting a thread that doesn't begin by calling out an individual who has acknowledged their error and may already be on the defensive.

The funny thing about the internet is that its totally different than real life. Imagine that Neo was showing a video to Ultra on his phone in a bar. The conversation would have went:

UV: Whoa man, watch where you are pointing that thing!
N: Huh, well, it was empty.
UV: Yeah, but you still gotta watch it, man. That is how people get killed.
N: Yeah, I know.
UV: No seriously.
N: Whatever, bugger off.
UV: Just saying.
N: Oh shut up and drink.
UV: Fine.


It would have been a 1 minute conversation and no one would be all that irritated.

On the internet, the written word hangs and festers. Its written without interruption, without feedback, and sometimes, when long (like this) can come off as preachy or arrogant.

Its the internet, boys. It was a dark video and I thought he probably kept the muzzle up the whole time. But maybe he didn't. Maybe he was a little lax, maybe he wasn't. I think that a reminder to all of us to practice what we preach is always a good thing. But this horse is a little greasy smear now. Lets move along. I see nothing good coming out of this. If a new thread could be started about gun safety in general, do you practice what you preach, etc. But this has become personal.