The Liberal Gun Club Forum

Awesome question.

SQUIRM YOU RETHUGLICANS SQUIRM.

As you can expect, his (first guy's) response is complete and utter bullshit.

The fact that the openly gay brigadier general is in the audience and responds with forceful speaking is awesome.

EDIT: Should've mentioned (and it's kind of obvious with Romney there that this is OLD. It's not from the recent debates.

Still.

FREAKING HILARIOUS.

These people at this supposed debate were acting like a bunch of pre schoolers arguing over a crayon.

SamuraiCowboy wrote:These people at this supposed debate were acting like a bunch of pre schoolers arguing over a crayon.

A crayon that they aren't going to get come next election.

Freaking hilarious.

McCain is running again?

That line-up doesn't have three balls among the whole group.

Sadly, their fans nod in agreement.

As many here know, I’m a Christian and I do believe homosexuality to be a sin according to The Bible. With that said, Christians have blown (no pun intended) this issue horribly, and have become judgmental and intolerant. The teachings of Christ were teachings of tolerance, not hate and judgment. The Bible and history teaches us that human beings are uniquely UNQUALIFIED to judge other humans, simple as that. This is why, when Christ was on the Earth, he gave but ONE commandment; that we love one another…

John 13:34-35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Now think about this…if Christ is God incarnate…that’s a HUGELY significant event. And according to The Bible, while incarnate, God gave but ONE commandment, one the Church all too often forgets.

Fundamental Christians have driven this issue in a completely NON-BIBLICAL manner, which leads these guys to propose a position that is not in line with what they proclaim as their faith. The sin of a homosexual is NO DIFFERENT from any sin I have in my life. If you’re to stick to strict (Fundamental) Biblical teaching, then you wouldn’t allow ANYONE to serve who is a willful and habitual sinner in any category. That includes those who are prideful, boastful, arrogant, etc. There is no “this sin is worse than that sin”, that’s humanism talking, not the teaching of Christ.

Clearly it has been demonstrated time and time and time again that homosexuals are just as capable of service with no more interruption to unit cohesiveness than normal anomalies that pop up whenever humans are forced to interact with each other.

These supposed “Fundamental Christians” make a mockery of Jesus by placing themselves on some self proclaimed higher moral ground. I would openly welcome homosexuals to serve right alongside the rest of us sinners. I know my Bible quite well, and while it talks of homosexuality as a sin, I’m not aware of anything in The Bible that says that THAT particular sin is unforgivable by God.

I’m sure I’ll take some heat for my comments, because I have the audacity to call homosexuality a sin. But I am a Christian and I am a sinner, just like homosexuals; there is NOTHING at all different about my sins and that of a homosexual. If I’m worthy of forgiveness, there is nothing in The Bible that says my sins are okay or forgivable, and those of a homosexual are somehow worse of unforgiveable.

There are a LOT of great churches out there and a lot of great Christians. It’s the nut jobs that give Christianity a bad name. Just like everything else, people tend to focus on the things that divide us rather than that which makes us similar. Christians have far more in common with those on this forum than many would like to admit. I’m saddened that mainstream Christianity has managed to bungle this issue so incredibly badly. When reading The Bible, often you can substitute the Pharisee’s with modern day church leadership because they so often get it wrong.

Persecuting gays is not the message of Christ. Keeping gays out of the military doesn’t make us stronger, it makes us weaker. Persecuting gays does not advance the agenda of Christ, quite the opposite, it’s clearly the work of the Devil to dilute the message of Christ and discredit the Church; and it’s working.

While I appreciate that you believe homosexuality to be no greater "sin" than any other (although my Catholic upbringing has taught me that sins do have levels of severity), it is simply unacceptable to any judeo-christian non-believer that it is in fact a "sin". Now it doesn't matter to non-believers in the moral sense because your christian sins and their religious consequences are only applicable to yourselves, but it does matter when societal judgement is given on the character of homosexuals that, being "sinners", they are therefore in some ways inferior. It is especially insidious when this religious judgement is used to cause homosexuals disadvantage in non-religious endeavors (such as serving in the military).

And it is not acceptable to say that "it's ok, I am also a sinner but homosexuals are no worse than me". Speak for yourself: it is not a compliment to homosexuals to be called sinners because of what they are! No more than a child being born out of incest or rape is a sinner for circumstances not of its choosing. But then again, christians also do have their judgements on those, don't they?

How can the US govt base their rules on "sins?" The idea that a relgious idea is the basis for the rule makes it sound unqualified to be a standard in this country.

One speaker said gay lifestlyes would make non-gays uncomfortable. There, there, Butch. Calm yourself.

The orginal question asked if there was a level of professionalism that would allow gays in the military without throwing the whole system into chaos. The noise that was accepted as response implies, No, they are not professional enough.

What part of this equation needs calibrated? How about increasing the degree of professionalism in the armed services to match the reality that there are gays in the military.

AdAstra wrote:And it is not acceptable to say that "it's ok, I am also a sinner but homosexuals are no worse than me". Speak for yourself: it is not a compliment to homosexuals to be called sinners because of what they are! No more than a child being born out of incest or rape is a sinner for circumstances not of its choosing. But then again, christians also do have their judgements on those, don't they?

AdAstra -
I thought it was clear I was speaking for myself. My point was that there is no sin worse than mine, none. This is MY religious belief and just that. My point is that the so called "fundamental" Christians are just plain WRONG.

Being called is sinner is never a compliment; I fear you may have missed my point. I figured that I would catch some slack because of my views, so I'm not surprised, but based on your comments, I'm not sure you truely got my message so much as you got what you're looking for from a Christian. Happens a lot to me.

FrontSight wrote:As many here know, I’m a Christian and I do believe homosexuality to be a sin according to The Bible. With that said, Christians have blown (no pun intended) this issue horribly, and have become judgmental and intolerant. The teachings of Christ were teachings of tolerance, not hate and judgment. The Bible and history teaches us that human beings are uniquely UNQUALIFIED to judge other humans, simple as that. This is why, when Christ was on the Earth, he gave but ONE commandment; that we love one another…

John 13:34-35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Now think about this…if Christ is God incarnate…that’s a HUGELY significant event. And according to The Bible, while incarnate, God gave but ONE commandment, one the Church all too often forgets.

Fundamental Christians have driven this issue in a completely NON-BIBLICAL manner, which leads these guys to propose a position that is not in line with what they proclaim as their faith. The sin of a homosexual is NO DIFFERENT from any sin I have in my life. If you’re to stick to strict (Fundamental) Biblical teaching, then you wouldn’t allow ANYONE to serve who is a willful and habitual sinner in any category. That includes those who are prideful, boastful, arrogant, etc. There is no “this sin is worse than that sin”, that’s humanism talking, not the teaching of Christ.

Clearly it has been demonstrated time and time and time again that homosexuals are just as capable of service with no more interruption to unit cohesiveness than normal anomalies that pop up whenever humans are forced to interact with each other.

These supposed “Fundamental Christians” make a mockery of Jesus by placing themselves on some self proclaimed higher moral ground. I would openly welcome homosexuals to serve right alongside the rest of us sinners. I know my Bible quite well, and while it talks of homosexuality as a sin, I’m not aware of anything in The Bible that says that THAT particular sin is unforgivable by God.

I’m sure I’ll take some heat for my comments, because I have the audacity to call homosexuality a sin. But I am a Christian and I am a sinner, just like homosexuals; there is NOTHING at all different about my sins and that of a homosexual. If I’m worthy of forgiveness, there is nothing in The Bible that says my sins are okay or forgivable, and those of a homosexual are somehow worse of unforgiveable.

There are a LOT of great churches out there and a lot of great Christians. It’s the nut jobs that give Christianity a bad name. Just like everything else, people tend to focus on the things that divide us rather than that which makes us similar. Christians have far more in common with those on this forum than many would like to admit. I’m saddened that mainstream Christianity has managed to bungle this issue so incredibly badly. When reading The Bible, often you can substitute the Pharisee’s with modern day church leadership because they so often get it wrong.

Persecuting gays is not the message of Christ. Keeping gays out of the military doesn’t make us stronger, it makes us weaker. Persecuting gays does not advance the agenda of Christ, quite the opposite, it’s clearly the work of the Devil to dilute the message of Christ and discredit the Church; and it’s working.

Frontsight we speak the same language on this

AdAstra wrote:While I appreciate that you believe homosexuality to be no greater "sin" than any other (although my Catholic upbringing has taught me that sins do have levels of severity), it is simply unacceptable to any judeo-christian non-believer that it is in fact a "sin". Now it doesn't matter to non-believers in the moral sense because your christian sins and their religious consequences are only applicable to yourselves, but it does matter when societal judgement is given on the character of homosexuals that, being "sinners", they are therefore in some ways inferior. It is especially insidious when this religious judgement is used to cause homosexuals disadvantage in non-religious endeavors (such as serving in the military).

And it is not acceptable to say that "it's ok, I am also a sinner but homosexuals are no worse than me". Speak for yourself: it is not a compliment to homosexuals to be called sinners because of what they are! No more than a child being born out of incest or rape is a sinner for circumstances not of its choosing. But then again, christians also do have their judgements on those, don't they?

I was brought up Catholic and though I have not been as active recently, I still practice. In Catholicism there are venial (minor sins) and mortal (major sins). According to Catholicism sin is active and deliberate turning away from your relationship to God. It is difficult to justify consensual love between two people where no harm is being done as a sin.

Being homosexual is actually not a sin in Catholic teaching also homosexual sex acts are because they take place outside of marriage...etc... like adultery. I still think it is a crap answer based on man's teachings not on any divine wisdom. My relationship with God is personal. I have nothing to say about other people only what I do. I may think that someone is behaving in a manner that is destructive to themselves or others around them and may even want to intervene, but that is not a religious thing it is social. My religious beliefs inform my life and actions not those of others, nor should they. I get that it is what you are trying to say, but the statement that, "The bible says," would tend to come off as arrogant. Love is never a sin, sex outside of marriage is the sin and since marriage is only considered for male-female pairings, then homosexual acts are supposedly always sinful.

As Ad Astra says, Religion and Law are supposed to be separate in government. We are NOT a Christian Nation despite the majority being Christian. We are Secular. Perhaps Christianity informs some of our laws, but so do other religions which pre-date Christianity on which some of the philosophy is based. Laws should be evaluated based on harm towards others not on moralizing that has no basis in fact.

FrontSight wrote:Fundamental Christians have driven this issue in a completely NON-BIBLICAL manner, which leads these guys to propose a position that is not in line with what they proclaim as their faith.

That's because they don't have faith, they have fear, and you can't act biblically when you don't read the Bible. I know some great Christians, like yourself, who actually want to know and understand the word of God, never had an issue with them and I'll come to their defense when they come up against some asshole atheist who's little better than the evangelicals. However, most Christians are "Foxhole Christians", they're Christian when it benefits them to be and they wash their blatant and unapologetic sins away because they go to church on Sunday. In other words, the hypocrites that Anton LaVey references in the Satanic Bible when he speaks about his time with the circus. The same men partaking in all manners of sin on Saturday without thought of Heavenly Retribution would be at Church on Sunday bright and early to accept forgiveness. The great contradiction as he says. Which you and I know that in the Bible Jesus is very clear that the asking of forgiveness comes with prerequisites. You don't just ask and receive it. First, the line of "all men are sinners" has been the most abused line Jesus ever spoke, because people have used it as meaning "well I'm a sinner anyway, so I might as well do what I want and ask for forgiveness later." It doesn't work like that, the line was meant to mean "Even on your best behavior you will sin, but always try to be in God's image and not sin."

Jesus goes on to say that simply asking for forgiveness won't get you into the pearly gates, because if you felt true remorse for your sins, you would go out of your way to not continue doing them. He goes even further and says God will not forgive anyone's trespasses against him unless they forgive other people's trespasses against them, i.e. groups like the Westboro church won't see heaven because they've been unable to forgive the supposed trespass gays have made against them. God is not looking to those who scream their faith on top of a mountain, but those who go home at night and pray when no one's looking.

The problem right now that the Christians have are the number of false idols who put themselves all over television and other forms of media and use the religion for the purpose of making money, and that's what most people in this nation listen to. If you're a true Christian, you can't be a conservative, because Christ was the second most liberal religious leader to grace this planet, Buddha was the most liberal, and both of them spoke to the harm of the seven deadly sins which conservatives revel in. Point of fact, conservatives have more similarities with Satanism than Christianity.

FrontSight wrote:I thought it was clear I was speaking for myself. My point was that there is no sin worse than mine, none. This is MY religious belief and just that.

Also, FrontSight, and any other Christian member, if any of you need help with non-believers, I got your back, because I respect that you attempt to lead a good life based off some sound philosophy, even if I don't agree about homosexuality.

...so basically these "christians" should follow their own advice, and "let he without sin cast the first stone." I can get behind that, even as an a-religious individual.

Think of Christianity as Buddhism for Dummies. Get a red letter edition of the Bible and read only what Christ says, it's very Buddhist and taught as if you were speaking to a child. Instead of going into long drawn out explanations for how being an asshole causes suffering, they threw in there the whole damnation bit. Luther mistranslated "Gehennom" as "Hell" because it was his closest similar idea from Norse mythology, "Hel" being the deity of the place "Hel" where she collected portions of the dead. Gehennom was the garbage dump of ancient Jerusalem where the denizens would send the dead. The "eternal flame" was the fire they would light every month that would burn until the next lighting because of the amount of garbage at Gehennom. The idea then being that if you didn't make right with God you would continue to burn over and over again in the mounds of Gehennom because your spirit would never leave your body.

Soooo if you ever really want to irritate some supposed Christians, call them pagans for celebrating pagan holidays (Easter, Christmas) and having Pagan beliefs on the after life.

Caliman73 wrote: Being homosexual is actually not a sin in Catholic teaching also homosexual sex acts are because they take place outside of marriage...etc... like adultery.

I think that is oversimplifying it a little - the bible is clear that the sin is in the act of two people of the same sex having relations, not just the fact that it is out of marriage. And since marriage of two homosexuals is forbidden in christianity, there's no way out of it being sinful.

Caliman73 wrote: Love is never a sin, sex outside of marriage is the sin and since marriage is only considered for male-female pairings, then homosexual acts are supposedly always sinful.

Right, so there is no way homosexuality can ever be acceptable to christians. And the way most religions is practiced, is that sinners are considered inferior in moral aspects and therefore also inferior in character. This is what leads to judgements in non-religious endeavors. Consider the derogatory term bastard - this term arose out of the fact that children born out of wedlock were judged inferior by the religious crowd, but it has now morphed to a general non-religious term of inferiority and flaw. Consider the word Jew - in the old days christians used it as a religious/moral derogatory term based on different religious beliefs, but it further degenerated to a non-religious derogatory term with inferences to greed, selfishness, sneakiness, etc. My argument is that religious beliefs always translate to judgements that go beyond the religious domain - and when it is arguably baseless and unfair to place that religious judgement on a group of people in the first place, then we need to address it at that place (the source) and eliminate the basis for the judgement in any other domain.

FrontSight wrote: Being called is sinner is never a compliment; I fear you may have missed my point. I figured that I would catch some slack because of my views, so I'm not surprised, but based on your comments, I'm not sure you truely got my message so much as you got what you're looking for from a Christian. Happens a lot to me.

I think I understand the point you're making, and my point is that the religious judgement placed on homosexuals as being sinners is the source, the basis for the non-religious judgements on their character, and therefore unsuitability for non-religious endeavors. If homosexuals are considered sinners (and hence morally corrupt), then it must follow that they are also corrupt in character, and since character extends beyond the religious domain, how can it not be considered in non-religious endeavors? In short, I think the the culprit here is the fact that religion judges the homosexual as inferior, and this is the basis for all other judgements that society places upon him/her. Is religion to blame? I think it is people that are to blame, because they can change their religious beliefs to accommodate what shouldn't be outside of accepted behavior in the first place, which happened simply because some old men wrote it on a piece of paper a long time ago.

ABNinfantryman wrote:
Also, FrontSight, and any other Christian member, if any of you need help with non-believers, I got your back, because I respect that you attempt to lead a good life based off some sound philosophy, even if I don't agree about homosexuality.

Which implies that non-religious believers do not attempt to lead a good life? You do know that most of the evil perpetrated in history arose out of religious beliefs, don't you? And that it is possible for "atheists" and "agnostics" to lead "good" lives?

AdAstra wrote:Which implies that non-religious believers do not attempt to lead a good life? You do know that most of the evil perpetrated in history arose out of religious beliefs, don't you? And that it is possible for "atheists" and "agnostics" to lead "good" lives?

It implies that I respect those who seek spiritual fulfillment in the hopes of becoming a better person than their basest instincts because of that goal. That doesn't preclude atheists or agnostics if their search for knowledge and understanding is found strictly in science. Let me reiterate, the way to truth isn't as important so much as the goal of finding it, and anyone who seeks to find it, has my respect.

Simmer down wrote:How can the US govt base their rules on "sins?" The idea that a relgious idea is the basis for the rule makes it sound unqualified to be a standard in this country.

THIS should be the major point.

What does Shariah law say?

ABNinfantryman wrote:. Let me reiterate, the way to truth isn't as important so much as the goal of finding it, and anyone who seeks to find it, has my respect.

Excellent statement.

To steal a robin Williams line. I have never seen so many white guys in such desperate need of a blow job.

Looks like it was from the '08 primary. Not that the groupthink has changed...