A clear, concise, and well written opposing view here:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... _ST1_N.htm

For the record, I wholeheartedly side with the second argument.

Universities are odd beasts. Its a stressful time in a students life. They are 18, many have never had responsibilities before, let alone be responsible for their daily health and well being. They move away from home, are presented with all sorts of options that are not healthy either physically or mentally, and they often make the wrong choice. Dorms are notoriously raucous places. Students suddenly have no 'real' responsibilities, they just get to stay up late talking, drinking, whatever. Then suddenly its the end of their first semester, they have gained 15 pounds and are about to fail most of their classes. A friend of mine is in charge of student housing at a smallish liberal arts college in the north east. She said that last year nearly 50% of the students in her housing had to be referred for mental health counseling. Freshmen classes are notoriously difficult to teach because many students don't show up and don't think about the consequences until the end of the semester when they are frantic and panicking - realizing they are about to lose their scholarships or be placed on academic probation.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to a LOT.

My point is that college can be particularly stressful, especially for 'modern' students who have been able to skate through high school with minimal expectations and no real requirements from their parents to assume responsibility for themselves.

I don't like adding guns to this mix.


I would be OK with guns on campus as follows:
1. NOT in dorms or for anyone staying in the dorms or frat/sorority houses.
2. Employees are permitted after having passed a 90 evaluation of their job performance.
3. ONLY concealed carry. If the gun shows, you get one warning. Twice and you get that right taken away.
4. Brandishing, threatening, etc with the firearm are immediate grounds for expulsion or dismissal.
5. If there is no state requirement for handgun safety training and a course on state laws regarding handguns before being able to have a CCW, then some system must be worked out to make sure that such a requirement is attained.

At 18 most states don't allow people to even buy a handgun, let alone carry it concealed, so I don't see this as a problem. 21 is the relavent age in most states, which would narrow the scope to seniors and grad students, or faculty/staff.

As to your list of demands, I think for most part I'm ok with them. I really don't se though how a sober adult entering a dorm should have to disarm though. According to the laws for armed defense almost everywhere, you life or that of anothers must be in immediate danger to warrant the use of a gun. It's not likely that the cock sure, loudmouthed 18 year old smartass is gonna get shot over a bad joke, at last not by a legal CCW holder. Just like anywhere else there are consequences for irresponsible people with guns, and those licensed to carry are probably much more aware of these rules than some random kid who gets a gun and just tucks it into his sweat pants illegally.

AmirMortal wrote:At 18 most states don't allow people to even buy a handgun, let alone carry it concealed, so I don't see this as a problem. 21 is the relavent age in most states, which would narrow the scope to seniors and grad students, or faculty/staff.

As to your list of demands, I think for most part I'm ok with them. I really don't se though how a sober adult entering a dorm should have to disarm though. According to the laws for armed defense almost everywhere, you life or that of anothers must be in immediate danger to warrant the use of a gun. It's not likely that the cock sure, loudmouthed 18 year old smartass is gonna get shot over a bad joke, at last not by a legal CCW holder. Just like anywhere else there are consequences for irresponsible people with guns, and those licensed to carry are probably much more aware of these rules than some random kid who gets a gun and just tucks it into his sweat pants illegally.

And this is why laws have a billion add ons. It wasn't my intention to say that non-student employees that were carrying would have to disarm if they had to enter a dorm.

18=freshman
19=sophomore
20=junior
21=senior
22="super senior"

Seriously, they are calling the 5th year students, who are quite common now, 'super seniors'. Many students are not graduating now until 23. If seniors and superseniors and superduper seniors are still living in dorms, I still don't want them to have guns.

Can't say that the idea strikes me in a positive light. But circumstances are so different now from when I was a student and then later a university instructor.

During my time as a student and as an instructor, our campus security was unarmed. That was many years ago.

Now I am comforted knowing that campus security where my daughter is a student is not only armed, but staffed by ex secret service and FBI types.

I can imagine all sorts of scenarios where the armed student saves the day or causes unbelievable harm. Kind of like the real world. What makes any of us think that our campuses are free of weapons now? I suspect that there are more weapons carried illegally in this country every day than legally and I don't think for a moment that our colleges are somehow immune.

Still, I reflect back on an occasion where informing a pre-med student that medical school was probably not going to be a reality given his then current performance in physics and being slammed against a wall as a result...I have to say I am pretty happy he wasn't armed.

I have a comment to make on this that may be relevant, or not.

In the Army, most of the soldiers who live in the barracks, on post, are about 18 -25. The Army goes to great lengths to ensure that nobody who is not on duty, sober and in uniform has access to weapons and, in particular, ammo. These are the rules that are applied to folks who train constantly with weapons.

I'd support the idea of ccw by certified faculty and staff. Classrooms are often like holding tanks, with few easy exits. I'd like a teacher to have a chance to cut short a rampage. I don't live or teach expecting or fearing rampages. I'd just like to be able to make a bid at protecting my students in case one starts up.

Here is a local story on TV here related somewhat to the subject. This guy is older, and well his story is questionable. http://pahomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=174056

I might be the only PA Member that has WBRE for local TV. The Community College this occurred at was the first College I went to. It is also in the hometown of now former Congressman Paul Kanjorski.

spikerogan wrote:Here is a local story on TV here related somewhat to the subject. This guy is older, and well his story is questionable. http://pahomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=174056

I might be the only PA Member that has WBRE for local TV. The Community College this occurred at was the first College I went to. It is also in the hometown of now former Congressman Paul Kanjorski.

That guy was up to no good.

I'm of the opinion that if you've gone through all the hassle of obtaining a permit (background checks, traiining) to carry concealed, then darn gone it you've got a right to carry whether the law allows. Period. No more requirements, or exceptions. Not by the school, not by the employer.

In TX, the minimum age is 21 to obtain a CCW license, by that time most of the kids are living off campus, and have also gotten to experiment the party life and it's off their systems.

Methinks this is much ado about nothing, just like when we were told back in the 90's there was going to be a bloodbath on every corner of TX if the CCW laws were passed.

Xela

Also...Someone brought up infantilization of college students in another post (can't find it now).

I think promoting or enforcing a non-CCW campus is perpetuating this unfortunate phenomena even further.

Xela

mark wrote:

spikerogan wrote:Here is a local story on TV here related somewhat to the subject. This guy is older, and well his story is questionable. http://pahomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=174056

I might be the only PA Member that has WBRE for local TV. The Community College this occurred at was the first College I went to. It is also in the hometown of now former Congressman Paul Kanjorski.

That guy was up to no good.

Yeah he had Luzerne County, PA Loughner written all over him.

His defense of "I have no concealed carry permit, so I forgot I stuck it in my pocket going into the house." is rather questionable.

A: Why no carry case?
B: What the hell were you doing with the gun since ranges will not let you walk in holding it un-holstered or case-less?

Imagine if open carry on campus was allowed? That guy would have gone un-touched. #JustSaying

spikerogan wrote:

mark wrote:

spikerogan wrote:Here is a local story on TV here related somewhat to the subject. This guy is older, and well his story is questionable. http://pahomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=174056

I might be the only PA Member that has WBRE for local TV. The Community College this occurred at was the first College I went to. It is also in the hometown of now former Congressman Paul Kanjorski.

That guy was up to no good.

Yeah he had Luzerne County, PA Loughner written all over him.

His defense of "I have no concealed carry permit, so I forgot I stuck it in my pocket going into the house." is rather questionable.

A: Why no carry case?
B: What the hell were you doing with the gun since ranges will not let you walk in holding it un-holstered or case-less?

Imagine if open carry on campus was allowed? That guy would have gone un-touched. #JustSaying

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open carry (althought I must admit I'm stil on the fence on that one).

Regarding the news clip...When they quote, "I don't even have a permit."

I would expect the book be thrown at him in court.

Xela

18=freshman
19=sophomore
20=junior
21=senior
22="super senior"

Seriously, they are calling the 5th year students, who are quite common now, 'super seniors'. Many students are not graduating now until 23. If seniors and superseniors and superduper seniors are still living in dorms, I still don't want them to have guns.

Quite frankly i'm offended by this, I'm 23, I live in an apartment, next to campus, and graduating this year. The reason there are people graduating at this age thesedays is some of the degrees take that long to complete, between added material to your major and added core, the average college student has more work to do. For me, there were three classes that extended my time here a year further, simple because one was not being offered last semester.


------------------

EDIT: gen, I am really sorry. I accidentally hit 'edit' on your post instead of quote. I then screwed up and lost the last half of your message here. I remember it contained something about some universities that already allowed CCW on campus. Again, I am really sorry. I hope you post that info again. Those two buttons are too close to each other

I haven't read the USA Today opinion yet or all of these responses; however, looking at going back to school next fall for a masters, if I could carry on campus, I would in a *heartbeat*.

Reasons:
1. Ohio State University ... surrounding area is not the best, in fact, I would say southeast of campus has a high concentration of violent crime.

2. Mostly night classes; walking to/from car or on my bike.

3. I'm 29 and know the responsibility that CCW has attached to it. I do not trust a 18 year old freshman, necessarily. But at the same time, I don't trust some 29 year old grad students... I think that's just what we have to deal with when it comes to carrying anywhere with anyone.

I'm tempted to just say that those who go through the process to do it legally will not abuse the privilege and responsibility. Those who act illegally or irresponsibly will do so with or without CCW rights on campuses.

I'm tempted to just say that those who go through the process to do it legally will not abuse the privilege and responsibility. Those who act illegally or irresponsibly will do so with or without CCW rights on campuses.

Agreed, and this has been borne out time and time again, all across the country, for decades now. In general, I don't believe that location has much to do with it.

18=freshman
19=sophomore
20=junior
21=senior
22="super senior"

Seriously, they are calling the 5th year students, who are quite common now, 'super seniors'. Many students are not graduating now until 23. If seniors and superseniors and superduper seniors are still living in dorms, I still don't want them to have guns.

Quite frankly i'm offended by this, I'm 23, I live in an apartment, next to campus, and graduating this year. The reason there are people graduating at this age thesedays is some of the degrees take that long to complete, between added material to your major and added core, the average college student has more work to do. For me, there were three classes that extended my time here a year further, simple because one was not being offered last semester.

If you are going to be offended, at least be offended in context.


I suggested a situation where guns are not allowed in dorms, or for people living in dorms. Part of my argument was the high stress situation that is created by campus housing.

Amir responded by saying

21 is the relevant age in most states, which would narrow the scope to seniors and grad students, or faculty/staff.

I then pointed out that 21 is NOT limited to seniors and grad students. I even said it was quite common to not graduate until 23. I then went on to say that I don't care how old the person is, if they are still living in dorms, it is my opinion that they should not have guns on campus.

I did not criticize those who graduate at a later age, nor their reasons for it, of which I am well aware.

yes but I still live in or near that "no gun radius" of campus in an apartment complex that is NO different from my old dorm the only thing that's different is the name and it's about 100 yards from my old dorm. the layouts are incredibly similar, ALL of my nighbors are college students including my current roomate whom I did choose this time but that's not saying that you can't choose in the dorms either, and we all have to worry about the same dangers as, even though statesboro is a safe community, due to the no gun laws of the university, a few individuals (or more than likely a single man going by the witness descriptions on the campus alerts) are causing havock the only difference is the name on the master lease or whatever it's called for the complex. I see no reason why the rights of those in the dorms should be different from mine when the real differences come down to names.

I then pointed out that 21 is NOT limited to seniors and grad students. I even said it was quite common to not graduate until 23. I then went on to say that I don't care how old the person is, if they are still living in dorms, it is my opinion that they should not have guns on campus.

I did not criticize those who graduate at a later age, nor their reasons for it, of which I am well aware.

sorry i misunderstood you.

no big deal my friend.


I disagree with you that dorms=apartments. I think they are very different environments. Of course, which dorm you live in will matter a lot - in my experience there is quite a bit of variation between the different housing buildings on a given campus.

Some people are like me,

27 = sophmore

or my peers..

55= freshmen.

There are a lot of older people that go to school. If we really think young adults that are 21 aren't responsible enough carry, then they should raise the age of those able to purchase and CC.


I'm for CC since you need to be 21 to have a handgun and must pass a background check. If you need to have a head check with the school counselor then that is cool. It's not so much as being worried about danger ON campus, as OFF campus. I felt the anti-gun guy explained that better than the pro-gun guy in the USAnews debate. The thing is when I can't carry to school (because I usually walk/ride the bus) I can't protect myself (other than throwing punches) on the way to school or the way home. When you're walking with an art portfolio case full of plans, and a briefcase with a laptop and a bunch of books... you're not going to be able to run very fast from someone trying to jack you.

This coming fall, I will be a 32 year old freshman.

Amrev, I agree. Work is pretty stressful too. If for some reason I were required to live in a dorm, I don't think for a second that there is any justification whatsoever to ban me from owning or carrying a gun, as I am waaaay past the excessive partying stage in my life, I've lived independently for almost two decades (I moved out in my early-mid teens), and dammit, I am a responsible adult. I've had plenty of stressful times in my life, and living on a tour bus, working 100+hrs a week for 4mo at a time is certainly harsher to me than taking 15hrs at school and living in a dorm. I'm not saying that it isn't tough, just that I've been through plenty shit and didn't crack, many times over.

I can sort of see Mark's argument here, but I think it is far more valid for someone who is just moving out for the first time, also just becoming legal age, etc. I don't think it really applies to those who've been around though, and by 21 most people have been around at least a bit, and that is why the line has been drawn at 21 in most places. That line should not stop at the campus property line.

the line should be drawn in maturity not age. Done when one applies for a permit. Not automatically given at a certain age, (though here I think there are required classes or a check).

Also, Gendo, I don't think that Mark was slighting those who graduate later than 22, just that a name has been created for them out of necessity. I won't be graduating until my mid-thirties, and I may get some good natured ridicule out of it, but I doubt anyone actually will think any less of me for it.

It is fairly common for an undergrad to take 5 years too. I'll be taking the minimum credits to maintain full-time status, because I will still have to be fully supporting myself through school and I'll have to work as much as possible. I'll also be going through community college, so I'm guessing 5-6 years easily.

I wonder if I would feel differently about this debate had I a daughter who would be graduating high school in the spring and is narrowing her choices down to NIU or VaTech or, Christ, anywhere. Or if I were Donna's parents--she was a student at my school, a colleague working p/t nights at a restaurant, who was ambushed and knifed to death as she took a short cut through the park. All the descriptives apply to her in bold face type: nice girl; quiet; wouldn't hurt a fly; etc.

I still think about her, every now and then, like when this issue gets some print. And although I am not in favor of guns on campus, there's a part of me that is--the part that wishes Donna had been carrying that night, giving her a fighting chance.