This is Part One from the Washington Monthly. They're trying very hard against guns, I must say. Here are three bullet points. I have not yet read the next part, but this should be looked at by those who want to know what the opposition is up to.

Actual title

The Myth of the Responsible Gun Owner: An American Nightmare (Part I)

A National Bureau of Economic Research study released last June found that right-to-carry laws increased violent gun crimes by 29 percent and gun homicides by 13 percent in the largest U.S. cities, while gun thefts increased by 35 percent.

During the first eight years after Wisconsin passed its concealed weapon law in 2011, the state experienced a 33-percent rise in gun homicides compared to the previous eight years, a 56-percent increase in aggravated assaults with firearms, and a 63-percent increase in assaults on police officers.

Records I’ve examined for Michigan, Wisconsin, and Florida show that more than 71,000 carry licenses were suspended or revoked during the last five years, largely due to felony and misdemeanor arrests or convictions and domestic violence injunctions. Extrapolating nationally—and assuming a similar lawlessness rate – would amount to more than 900,000 licensed and not-so-responsible gun carrier

link to full article

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2023/06/0 ... re-part-i/

CDFingers

Cherry picked data; and anecdotal based “evidence.” Sure there’s a problem with the toxic part of the gun culture.

The author completely loses me when he calls the Bruen decision “radical.” what was radical was NYs having no practical way for a citizen to be lawfully armed when almost every other state does? Why do these types say “defund the police” out of one side of their mouth; then say “the police should be responsible for who gets to be armed based in subjective criteria?”


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I agree INVICTUS, it's one gigantic whine. Responsible journalists link to the data they cite, Berlow makes this statement without a link.

Records I’ve examined for Michigan, Wisconsin, and Florida show that more than 71,000 carry licenses were suspended or revoked during the last five years, largely due to felony and misdemeanor arrests or convictions and domestic violence injunctions. Extrapolating nationally—and assuming a similar lawlessness rate – would amount to more than 900,000 licensed and not-so-responsible gun carriers.

The anti-gunners are constantly bashing red states quoting various stats about them being murder capitals. Digging deeper the problem with gun violence in red states is in their large cities which aren't red, they are blue.

INVICTVS138 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:53 am Cherry picked data; and anecdotal based “evidence.” Sure there’s a problem with the toxic part of the gun culture.

Yeah, a lot of cherry picking, but still not the most rabid anti-gun article I've read. A couple of quotes from the article:

While plenty of gun owners are responsible, a shocking number are not...

Are most gun owners reckless and rage-filled? Probably not.

And the one I agree with most:

Millions of hunters, sportsmen, collectors, and other ordinary gun owners view the Second Amendment as a right that comes with responsibilities. But there are plenty who are less fastidious.

I know, he singles out the "good" gun owners as hunters, etc. But his point is still valid. The reason there is so much anti-gun sentiment is that toxic gun culture breeds and arms millions of chucklefucks who have no business with a gun. We as a group of gun enthusiasts don't speak out about this loudly enough. We have let corporate greed spin the message that a right requires no responsibility. And that makes lots of money.

INVICTVS138 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:53 am Why do these types say “defund the police” out of one side of their mouth; then say “the police should be responsible for who gets to be armed based in subjective criteria?”

I agree with invictus on this 100%. Frankly, my very strong opinion is we'd be better off if every gun vanished tomorrow. (Cue the "but people will still have knives, rocks, arrows, sticks" argument.) But since that's not going to happen, I'd prefer the state not have a monopoly on gun ownership.

cooper wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:18 pm Frankly, my very strong opinion is we'd be better off if every gun vanished tomorrow. (Cue the "but people will still have knives, rocks, arrows, sticks" argument.) But since that's not going to happen, I'd prefer the state not have a monopoly on gun ownership.

Plus one.

I highly doubt the claim that licensed carriers are causing all sorts of gun crime. That doesn't appear to be the case as I don't see lots of breathless media reports about licensed carriers doing such crimes. And the media would be absolutely all in on such stories. Further, at least in California, sheriffs that have issued permits pre Bruen aren't saying that, either.

I know, he singles out the "good" gun owners as hunters, etc. But his point is still valid. The reason there is so much anti-gun sentiment is that toxic gun culture breeds and arms millions of chucklefucks who have no business with a gun. We as a group of gun enthusiasts don't speak out about this loudly enough. We have let corporate greed spin the message that a right requires no responsibility. And that makes lots of money.

featureless wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:48 pm

cooper wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:18 pm Frankly, my very strong opinion is we'd be better off if every gun vanished tomorrow. (Cue the "but people will still have knives, rocks, arrows, sticks" argument.) But since that's not going to happen, I'd prefer the state not have a monopoly on gun ownership.

Plus one.

I highly doubt the claim that licensed carriers are causing all sorts of gun crime. That doesn't appear to be the case as I don't see lots of breathless media reports about licensed carriers doing such crimes. And the media would be absolutely all in on such stories. Further, at least in California, sheriffs that have issued permits pre Bruen aren't saying that, either.

The 'gun crimes' that end up on the news(mass shootings) are almost 100% 'legal' gun owners. The most recent ones in CO...2022, 2023...Tattoo parlor, Club Q, Grocery store, etc...all were 'legal' gun owners.

I think featureless's point was specifically about licensed carriers. But F4, your point is one that needs emphasizing -- there is no shortage of terrible incidents involving legally obtained firearms. I mean, remember the long chain of fuckery that ended up with Kyle Rittenhouse killing two people? Apparently, none of that was illegal. I'd hate to re-litigate that here, we've spouted enough hot air on that little shit already. But why did gun culture not come out after that and distance themselves from him? Because gun culture loves it. There were millions of gun owners with erections after that incident. So everyone just said it was legal so it was okay, and 2A, and blah blah.

Gun owners who don't scream about the BS that happened that day are complicit. A court said everything that day was legal. But was it responsible? And if not, where was the backlash from "Responsible American Gun Owners." This forum didn't speak out against that little shit. If memory serves LGC, didn't either. I suspect it's because there was a (apparently) lawful use of a gun, and ignoring a long chain of apparently legal fuckery, including a straw purchase (which apparently wasn't legally a straw purchase because no one was taken to task for it). If you don't hang around with anti-gun folks you might have missed how that incident and the gun community's defense of him hardened their views.

cooper asks whether it would be better if all guns vanished. I don't think the knife/fork argument is the strongest. I agree things would be fine until someone made a gun. You know someone would.

But cooper also states,

" I know, he singles out the "good" gun owners as hunters, etc. But his point is still valid. The reason there is so much anti-gun sentiment is that toxic gun culture breeds and arms millions of chucklefucks who have no business with a gun. We as a group of gun enthusiasts don't speak out about this loudly enough. We have let corporate greed spin the message that a right requires no responsibility. And that makes lots of money."

I agree with this. I'm stuck up against the counterargument that toxic culture chucklefucks have rights. I'm stuck with letting everyone who legally can, be armed. Not much of a solution. "Infringed" is a tough verb to parse.

CDFingers

Hey CD, I'm not arguing for infringement. I'm arguing that gun culture doesn't yell loud enough when one of the many chucklefucks among us does stupid shit with a gun. I guess I'm talking about informal enforcement of society norms that says people with guns also have responsibilities. It needs to come from us.

I know a number of hunters that fall well outside my definition of responsible. Many become complacent due to familiarity. Not so much with handling as safe storage.

At any rate, yes, my point was licensed carriers. The article states 71,000 licenses were revoked in three states. I find that hogwash without a solid source.

Gun culture in general sucks as much as as American culture. What's in it for me and fuck you, I do what I want. It seems this culture was amplified with the election of that orange fuckhead and then Covid culture wars. It seems to only be getting worse. It ain't the gun culture. It's the American culture, some of whom own guns. Shit's toxic, yo.

cooper wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:12 am Hey CD, I'm not arguing for infringement. I'm arguing that gun culture doesn't yell loud enough when one of the many chucklefucks among us does stupid shit with a gun. I guess I'm talking about informal enforcement of society norms that says people with guns also have responsibilities. It needs to come from us.

It's not simply gun culture.

In general the US population does not support the Rule of Law if it happens to be inconvenient and has not just neglected but consistently refused teaching that all rights come with responsibilities.

Yeah, they cheered the little shit because he killed unarmed antifas, but also cheered when Michael Forest Reinoehl, accused of killing a fascist, was shot down by deputized "US Marshals" for carrying a dangerous weapon--his cell phone. And TOS, illegitimately in the WH, said "They were NEVER going to arrest Reinoehl!" IOW, they were a death squad sent out to kill an antifa summarily.

(( deleted ))

cooper wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:12 am Hey CD, I'm not arguing for infringement. I'm arguing that gun culture doesn't yell loud enough when one of the many chucklefucks among us does stupid shit with a gun. I guess I'm talking about informal enforcement of society norms that says people with guns also have responsibilities. It needs to come from us.

Agree with this and CDFingers. Easy access is HUGE problem. The BGC 'system' is broken. When it's even used..a lot of places it isn't, either legally or illegally.
Surprised some of the 'peanut gallery' hasn't chimed in that 'even irresponsible idiots have gun rights too'...

F4FEver wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:14 am

cooper wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:12 am Hey CD, I'm not arguing for infringement. I'm arguing that gun culture doesn't yell loud enough when one of the many chucklefucks among us does stupid shit with a gun. I guess I'm talking about informal enforcement of society norms that says people with guns also have responsibilities. It needs to come from us.

Agree with this and CDFingers. Easy access is HUGE problem. The BGC 'system' is broken. When it's even used..a lot of places it isn't, either legally or illegally.
Surprised some of the 'peanut gallery' hasn't chimed in that 'even irresponsible idiots have gun rights too'...

Actually, up above I acknowledged that chucklefucks have rights, and that that's a big stumbling block to me for coming up with a solution better than "arm everyone who can legally be armed to put a check on the bad guys." People "shouldn't" have to be armed, but they may be. But it does not work that way lately.

CDFingers

Agreed. Chucklefucks have rights. Just saying that "responsible" gun owners don't need to normalize and excuse chucklefuck behavior.

Yes, everyone has rights under the US Constitution and we support them. If someone violates another's rights they can be charged under the law. It's undemocratic to say this person has for example a 1A right or a 2A right, but these people don't have that right. We have a violence problem in the US and people want a simplistic answer to a very complicated problem, but that's the tactic that politicians and the media love to use all the time.

We are a nation of over 330 million people, 30,000 or 50,000 deaths from firearms are tragic, but it's a small number of people within the total population. Firearms deaths will never get to zero, even in China, the UK or Canada with all their strict gun laws. People rage about a lot of topics, just because they are their number one priority doesn't mean it's mine or yours. For some people #1 is air pollution or national defense or non-GMO foods or crime or racism or homophobia or gun control or ... We all support reducing violence, we differ on possible solutions.

Here is a response to the Washington Monthly article from Handwaving Freakoutery:

https://hwfo.substack.com/p/no-such-thi ... dium=email

Title of the article is "No Such Thing as a Responsible Gun Owner" Except for the 99.6% Who Are

BKinzey wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:05 pm Here is a response to the Washington Monthly article from Handwaving Freakoutery:

https://hwfo.substack.com/p/no-such-thi ... dium=email

Title of the article is "No Such Thing as a Responsible Gun Owner" Except for the 99.6% Who Are

As luck would have it, that's the article this thread is about.

CDFingers

BKinzey wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:05 pm Here is a response to the Washington Monthly article from Handwaving Freakoutery:

https://hwfo.substack.com/p/no-such-thi ... dium=email

Title of the article is "No Such Thing as a Responsible Gun Owner" Except for the 99.6% Who Are

Good find BK. HWFO arrived at the same conclusion we did that the data is garbage.

HWFO maintains that the problem with gun homicide in America is almost exclusively among Black Americans, and that when you only look at non-Latino whites we're on the same level as Europe. Now, he also argues that the American Black homicide rate is significantly higher than in Africa, and has causes intrinsic to American culture and racial issues - he specifically flags single motherhood rates and the absence of "strong male role models." Only gives a passing nod to the outrageous racial disparity in incarceration rates and the role that plays in "traditional family structure" because that's obviously not a root cause he's looking to mitigate.

I appreciate the statistical approach, but it needs to keep in mind the role of systemic racism and inequality in American culture,.

There is so much racism in the reporting of guns by the media. The Democrat supporters want to say it's (pretty much) all the White Conservatives, all the while calling the heavily-armed police on innocent brown-skinned people being in what they view as "their" spaces (Amy Cooper, etc.). Then these same Democrat supporters want to get Black people to allow their own rights to keep and bear arms to be abridged, ever more severely, as time goes.

The White Conservatives, by contrast, want to point to "Black on Black crime" and blame the crime problem and shootings on those damned darkies. I read a pro-2A book written in 2014 that is so racist in this stupid belief that it's actually disgusting. Yes, the author is a White Conservative and possibly even a White supremacist. It's around the house here somewhere; I'm going to go into this in a podcast episode and how dangerous and wrong this mindset is.

Either way, it really sucks how distorted so many people try to paint the problem of American violence.

Note that I did not say "gun violence". I said violence. The problem is one of violent behaviour, not of guns. Let's keep that in mind, folks.