I would, in magic thinking land, make all guns disappear. I absolutely would. Then we could get back to the noble sport of hacking, stabbing and bludgeoning each other to death. But until someone can assure me of 1) our government's benevolence and 2) criminals no longer have guns, I will continue to insist on the right and push for making society a better place.FrontSight wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:09 pm I still say we have a gun problem, but I will say you're correct in the statement that we have a violence problem. Its not just gun violence that is up, its all violence.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
27The man suspected of killing five and injuring eight at the Old National Bank in downtown Louisville, Kentucky, was a star athlete in high school who allegedly suffered so many concussions he wore a helmet at basketball games.
Back when he was a freshman at the Floyd Central High School in Floyds Knobs, Indiana, Sturgeon was an all-round athlete, playing basketball, football and running track. As his father was the head coach of the team, a former classmate told The Daily Beast Sturgeon was known as “Mr. Floyd Central.” However, the classmate, who asked to remain anonymous, noted Sturgeon oddly wore a helmet while playing basketball due to multiple concussions he suffered while playing football. “We played football together in eighth grade. He was out most of the year because he had multiple concussions,” he said. “Then he had a couple more in high school.”
In recent years doctors have made numerous links between football players and Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy [CTE], a degenerative brain disease caused by repeated blows to the head. Those diagnosed with CTE usually have impaired thinking and memory and are prone to aggression, mood swings, depression and paranoia, according to the Concussion Legacy Foundation.
https://nypost.com/2023/04/10/louisvill ... ncussions/After graduating high school, Sturgeon went on to the University of Alabama to study finance, earning his master of science in finance in 2020. While attending the university, Sturgeon worked as a summer intern for the Old National Bank for three consecutive years, eventually joining as a commercial development professional in 2021 and a full-time associate and portfolio banker last year, according to his LinkedIn account. Sturgeon had learned he was about to be fired from the bank, according to CNN, who said he also left a note for his parents and a friend explaining his intention to go and shoot up the bank.
It's a possible explanation, an examination of Sturgeon's brain would show if he had CTE. So far we haven't heard about Sturgeon's behavior when he was at Alabama, he completed undergraduate and graduate degrees.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
28Over 46,000 deaths in the US in 2022.
Almost 5 million injuries in the US in 2022 that were serious enough to require medical consultation.
Almost all involved breaking laws.
And those numbers are from an area where safety has been a major concern and the tools and environment involved have been actively and intentionally made safer.
And we have a system of supervision and sanctioning in place that could prevent much of it if implemented.
And it is not mass shootings.
Almost 5 million injuries in the US in 2022 that were serious enough to require medical consultation.
Almost all involved breaking laws.
And those numbers are from an area where safety has been a major concern and the tools and environment involved have been actively and intentionally made safer.
And we have a system of supervision and sanctioning in place that could prevent much of it if implemented.
And it is not mass shootings.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
29I agree, I'm not into magical thinking but there are plenty of people in CA that do, especially in the state legislature. They believe that getting rid of all firearms will magically end all violence and peace and tranquility will reign, which is bizarre thinking. As sika said we have a violence problem, but taking away firearms from everyone is just a typical simplistic political solution.featureless wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:23 pmI would, in magic thinking land, make all guns disappear. I absolutely would. Then we could get back to the noble sport of hacking, stabbing and bludgeoning each other to death. But until someone can assure me of 1) our government's benevolence and 2) criminals no longer have guns, I will continue to insist on the right and push for making society a better place.FrontSight wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:09 pm I still say we have a gun problem, but I will say you're correct in the statement that we have a violence problem. Its not just gun violence that is up, its all violence.
This wasn't like most other shootings, this involved successful middle class people and it didn't involve drugs or gangs. The people who died were close in age to many people here. Another tragic loss of life.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
30Nope, we have a violence problem that is 'aided' by easy access to guns.Eris wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:41 pmOne large group of people want to ban guns that are only used to kill a tiny fraction of those kids, and another large group wants to do nothing at all. It sucks.FrontSight wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:20 pm America has a serious gun problem, and neither party has any workable solutions. We're our own worst enemies. Guns are the leading killer of American children...and we're just kinda cool with that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if we really want to do something to stop kids from getting killed then it's handguns we need to focus on, and in particular handguns owned by young men 25 years old and lower.
Nope, we need to focus on who is buying the guns, most often, legally, like this shooter. Who, once again, was, after the fact, shown to have 'mental health issues' that his family knew about yet did nothing about. The current UBC system is not comprehensive enough...Easier to buy a gun than adopt a pet.
And, yes, yes, I know owning a pet is a privilege but there are a lot of pissed off, angry, dangerous, inept people out there who are buying a LOT of guns.
Name the one industry that has NO safety requirements placed upon it with regards to the product they make.And those numbers are from an area where safety has been a major concern and the tools and environment involved have been actively and intentionally made safer.
Oh well, nothing to be done here..I guess dead 9 year old children are the price we pay for the 2A...And it is not mass shootings.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
31We have had a violence problem ever since the first European settlers arrived on the shores of North America.FrontSight wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:09 pm I still say we have a gun problem, but I will say you're correct in the statement that we have a violence problem. Its not just gun violence that is up, its all violence.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
32Bingo!TrueTexan wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:55 amWe have had a violence problem ever since the first European settlers arrived on the shores of North America.FrontSight wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:09 pm I still say we have a gun problem, but I will say you're correct in the statement that we have a violence problem. Its not just gun violence that is up, its all violence.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
33Native Americans warred against each other long before Europeans arrived and they later allied themselves with different European nations.
http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclo ... gp.war.023
Reducing violence is a complicated issue and requires research and pilot projects to find the best solutions. When everything around us has become more and more politically tainted, science should remain above the fray. I believe in science, but not garbage studies like the firearms ones from UC, Davis; Johns Hopkins University and John Lott.
Many trends come and go, some have explanations and some don't. We'll never stop violence that's unreal, but we have to look at ways of reducing it. I have no solution but there are things that contribute to it, TV, films, media, sports, religion, politics, education, jobs...
http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclo ... gp.war.023
Reducing violence is a complicated issue and requires research and pilot projects to find the best solutions. When everything around us has become more and more politically tainted, science should remain above the fray. I believe in science, but not garbage studies like the firearms ones from UC, Davis; Johns Hopkins University and John Lott.
Many trends come and go, some have explanations and some don't. We'll never stop violence that's unreal, but we have to look at ways of reducing it. I have no solution but there are things that contribute to it, TV, films, media, sports, religion, politics, education, jobs...
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
34People generally have, but I think it’s fair to say the European introduction brought a new level of violence. Also I don’t know if the native population had any racism feelings towards each other. I suspect not in the same way as the Europeans pushed by religious indoctrination.highdesert wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:15 am Native Americans warred against each other long before Europeans arrived and they later allied themselves with different European nations.
http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclo ... gp.war.023
Reducing violence is a complicated issue and requires research and pilot projects to find the best solutions. When everything around us has become more and more politically tainted, science should remain above the fray. I believe in science, but not garbage studies like the firearms ones from UC, Davis; Johns Hopkins University and John Lott.
Many trends come and go, some have explanations and some don't. We'll never stop violence that's unreal, but we have to look at ways of reducing it. I have no solution but there are things that contribute to it, TV, films, media, sports, religion, politics, education, jobs...
I agree many things in modern society fuel violence especially politics in my opinion.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
35This is from an expert on mass shooting.
Let's see the Kansas City Massacre was in 1933 and the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre 1929 this among other gang related murders from the likes of Bonnie and Clyde and others.
Far as I could determine the only law expertise that Rep. Matt Gaetz has, is with the Mann Act, transporting underage females across state lines.
Matt Gaetz claims 'no mass shootings' when automatic weapons and cannons were legal
Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) claimed on Monday that there had been "no mass shootings" in the era when automatic weapons were legal.
Following a Louisville, Kentucky bank shooting that left at least four people dead, Gaetz acknowledged the grief that was being felt in the city.
https://www.rawstory.com/matt-gaetz-automatic-weapons/"Your grandparents used to be able to order mail-order automatic weapons, and when the Second Amendment was written, the American people, such as they were, could own cannons. No mass shootings back then," he said.
The National Firearms Act outlawing automatic weapons was enacted in 1934 due to an increase in gang crime, including mass shootings.
Let's see the Kansas City Massacre was in 1933 and the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre 1929 this among other gang related murders from the likes of Bonnie and Clyde and others.
Far as I could determine the only law expertise that Rep. Matt Gaetz has, is with the Mann Act, transporting underage females across state lines.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
36Damn, BP, I’m glad you are doing alright. I find that our familiarity with firearms both help us in these situations but also make us more sensitive to reports of gun violence. I personally cannot imagine the damage a rifle-round can do on our frail human bodies after cracking cinder-blocks with 7.62x39 rounds. Actually, I can and therein lies the problem.
I hope you have folks you can continue to talk to about this shooting. Being so close to a mass-shooting and random violence can change our view of life and damage trust in our fellow man to act rationally. And being such social animals we do need that trust to function in society.
I hope you have folks you can continue to talk to about this shooting. Being so close to a mass-shooting and random violence can change our view of life and damage trust in our fellow man to act rationally. And being such social animals we do need that trust to function in society.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
37Thank you, Bisbee!Bisbee wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:18 pm Damn, BP, I’m glad you are doing alright. I find that our familiarity with firearms both help us in these situations but also make us more sensitive to reports of gun violence. I personally cannot imagine the damage a rifle-round can do on our frail human bodies after cracking cinder-blocks with 7.62x39 rounds. Actually, I can and therein lies the problem.
I hope you have folks you can continue to talk to about this shooting. Being so close to a mass-shooting and random violence can change our view of life and damage trust in our fellow man to act rationally. And being such social animals we do need that trust to function in society.
I lost a lot of what trust I had in humanity when local cops fired pepper balls at journalists for covering the riot squad's overblown response to protests a few years ago.
That said, I'm also keen to remind myself that for every rifle used in a mass shooting event, there are thousands in the hands of law-abiding owners.
Eventually I'll figure out this signature thing and decide what I want to put here.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
38To this, ABC has contributed a hit piece on Kentucky's firearm laws.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/kentuck ... s-98482762
https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/kentuck ... s-98482762
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
39All religions united with government are more or less inimical to liberty. All, separated from government, are compatible with liberty.-Henry Clay
Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms.—Aristotle
Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms.—Aristotle
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
40LMPD has had scandals like many police forces in the US, but they did their job here. One report said that Sturgeon killed his victims and then waited for LMPD to arrive, wonder if this too could be suicide by cop.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
41He texted somebody that he was going to shoot up the bank and also wanted to commit suicide.highdesert wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 7:53 am LMPD has had scandals like many police forces in the US, but they did their job here. One report said that Sturgeon killed his victims and then waited for LMPD to arrive, wonder if this too could be suicide by cop.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
42If events unfolded before the shooting as the media reported, that Sturgeon was told he was going to be terminated then it was handled badly. HR procedures normally require that the employee is terminated by their boss or HR and escorted off the property by security and their badge is taken and staff are notified that the terminated person is no longer an employee and is not allowed access to the building. And building and computer access is removed. I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days.
And today,
And today,
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/12/us/louis ... index.htmlAs officials in Louisville, Kentucky, prepare to host a vigil to grieve the five people killed Monday in a downtown bank shooting, the 25-year-old gunman’s family released a statement saying he struggled with depression but they had no idea he was plotting the attack.
“While Connor, like many of his contemporaries, had mental health challenges which we, as a family, were actively addressing, there were never any warning signs or indications he was capable of this shocking act,” Connor Sturgeon’s family said in a statement to CNN affiliate WDRB.
The family said it has many “unanswered questions” and is cooperating with the investigation. “No words can express our sorrow, anguish, and horror at the unthinkable harm our son Connor inflicted on innocent people, their families, and the entire Louisville community,” the statement read.
“We mourn their loss and that of our son, Connor. We pray for everyone traumatized by his senseless acts of violence and are deeply grateful for the bravery and heroism of the Louisville Metropolitan Police Department.”
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
43Police in Kentucky have released audio of panicked emergency calls during a mass shooting that left five people dead at a bank, including from the gunman's own mother.She is heard telling a 911 dispatcher her son "currently has a gun" and is heading for the bank in Louisville, but "he's a really good kid". The callers included a woman who hid in a closet during the attack.
Eight people, including two policemen, were also wounded in Monday's shooting.The 25-year-old attacker, who worked at the Old National Bank, was fatally shot by police in the building's lobby. In about 30 minutes of 911 calls released by Louisville police on Wednesday, the woman identifying herself as the suspect's mother says her son is "non-violent" and "doesn't own any guns". "He's never hurt anyone," she says, adding: "Please don't punish him."
She adds that she received a tip-off from his roommate, who was "very concerned". "We don't even own guns," she says. "I don't know where he would have gotten a gun." The gunman's mother asks if she can go to the bank, but the dispatcher advises her to stay away because police are already responding to a "dangerous" situation there.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65258107His family released a statement late on Tuesday saying they had been addressing his mental health challenges, but there were no warning signs he could commit such an act. "No words can express our sorrow, anguish, and horror at the unthinkable harm our son Connor inflicted on innocent people, their families, and the entire Louisville community," they said.
One news report said Sturgeon suffered from depression.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
44https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/14/us/five- ... index.htmlThe family of the gunman who was killed after he fatally shot five people Monday at the Old National Bank in Louisville, Kentucky, plans to have his brain tested for chronic traumatic encephalopathy, commonly known as CTE, his father told CNN on Thursday. CTE, a neurodegenerative brain disease, can be found in people who have been exposed to repeated head trauma. The family thinks he had three significant concussions during his time playing sports in middle school and high school, his father said. The testing disclosure comes as police try to uncover a motive in the mass shooting, and as more families hold vigils honoring their loved ones who were killed.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/13/us/louis ... index.htmlCTE, a neurodegenerative brain disease, can be found in people who have been exposed to repeated head trauma. Studies have found that repetitive hits to the head – even without concussion – can result in CTE. Sturgeon’s family thinks he had three significant concussions – two as an eighth-grade football player and one in basketball as a high school freshman, according to Palmer.
The disease, which can only be diagnosed with an autopsy and neuropathological exam, is pathologically marked by a buildup of tau protein in the brain that can disable neuropathways and lead to a variety of symptoms including memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, aggression, depression, anxiety, impulse control issues and sometimes suicidal behavior.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
45At the risk of delving into "whataboutism," I see your point and agree. The first number went UP over the last fifteen years, too.sig230 wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:32 am Over 46,000 deaths in the US in 2022.
Almost 5 million injuries in the US in 2022 that were serious enough to require medical consultation.
Almost all involved breaking laws.
And those numbers are from an area where safety has been a major concern and the tools and environment involved have been actively and intentionally made safer.
And we have a system of supervision and sanctioning in place that could prevent much of it if implemented.
And it is not mass shootings.
I don't take your post to demean the tragedies so many families are facing. I've used those very numbers to point out how society seems to accept a lot of carnage as "part of the bargain" with a big facet of our lives.
Eventually I'll figure out this signature thing and decide what I want to put here.
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
46Not to minimize any deaths, but it depends on where the stats are coming from. These are from CDC.
Many of those causes of death are preventable.
Data are for the U.S.
Number of deaths: 3,464,231
Death rate: 1,043.8 deaths per 100,000 population
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htmNumber of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 695,547
Cancer: 605,213
COVID-19: 416,893
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 224,935
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 162,890
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 142,342
Alzheimer’s disease: 119,399
Diabetes: 103,294
Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis: 56,585
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 54,358
Many of those causes of death are preventable.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
47All true.
Again, the evidence shows that what we need is root cause mitigation, education and enforcement of existing safety rules and laws.
But none of those sell.
Again, the evidence shows that what we need is root cause mitigation, education and enforcement of existing safety rules and laws.
But none of those sell.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
48I completely agree.sig230 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:40 am All true.
Again, the evidence shows that what we need is root cause mitigation, education and enforcement of existing safety rules and laws.
But none of those sell.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
49https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/20/us/louis ... index.htmlThe notes reveal that part of the shooter’s goal was to show how easy it was in America for someone dealing with a serious mental illness to buy an assault-style weapon, the sources said.
Even crazy people get it about red flag laws.
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Shooting in Louisville, KY - 5 dead including gunman.
50https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.htmlUnder another Kentucky law, the firearm will now be auctioned off to the public by state police, effectively putting it back in circulation.
The family responded to the policy in a statement shared with DailyMail.com on Thursday: 'The Sturgeon family was aghast to learn Kentucky law mandated the assault rifle used in the horrific event last week be sold to the highest bidder at public auction.
'The family, in conjunction with the Louisville Metro Police Department (LMPD) and the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), is working vigorously to ensure the assault rifle is legally destroyed and the first step in this process occurred Monday, when ATF took possession of the assault rifle. We genuinely appreciate the assistance of both LMPD and ATF in this regard.
'This tragedy is yet another indication that meaningful, common sense gun safety measures must be enacted. We respectfully urge the Kentucky state legislature to lead the way by changing Kentucky law to remove the gun auction provision.'
2024 is an election year and Beshear is running for reelection. Don't know how successful he'll be in getting a red flag law passed, but the shooting was personal to him since he lost his friend Thomas Elliott.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan