This is part of the Enhanced Regulatory Enforcement under Biden.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulatio ... ent-policy
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/inv ... 568730002/
We will never know how many were "willful" violators and how many were not.
Per my recollection, a license can be revoked if an FFL typos, say, a NICS check transaction number or a serial number. So even though the background check was run, the ATF can revoke the license, claiming it had not been run. They have reinterpreted the word "willful" to mean any mistake made must have been done willfully.
Here is a story on the increase in revocations from last year:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-r ... r-on-guns/
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
2Of all the things I would have wanted a president to champion this is not it.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
3From DMs link.
Plus it's an election year and Biden is blocked from getting his AWB, so he tightens up on administrative matters that don't require congressional approval or at least he says they are being tightened up.
ATF shop inspection results and revocations have for years been hidden from the public, available only after protracted legal battles tied to the Freedom of Information Act.
In a sweeping investigation published in 2021, USA TODAY and The Trace found the ATF had been largely toothless and conciliatory, bending over backward to go easy on wayward dealers and sometimes allowing guns to flow into the hands of criminals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trace_(website)The Trace is an American one-sided non-profit journalism outlet devoted to gun control-related news in the United States. It was established in 2015 with seed money from the largest gun control advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety, which was founded by former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg, and went live on 19 June of that year. The site's editorial director is James Burnett.
Plus it's an election year and Biden is blocked from getting his AWB, so he tightens up on administrative matters that don't require congressional approval or at least he says they are being tightened up.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
4So...FFLs, because they complete the paperwork, are all above board, and don't do things like sell out the back door?sikacz wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:49 pm Of all the things I would have wanted a president to champion this is not it.
No gun stores in Disneyland , don't think...
Want a gun but can't pass a BGC? Go to a gun show in Wyoming..show the FFL long green, go out in the parking lot, buy the gun...
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
5No problem buying guns at gun shows here in AZ from a private citizen who has a booth with no BGC. Don't have to go outside and do a parking lot deal. Thats a little dangerous IMO.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
6That would be illegal in multiple ways for the FFL and illegal for the buyer, breaking several laws as well. So what is your proposed solution? Since you have specifically disparaged Wyoming gun shows before, do you have information that this is an actual problem? I'd like to see it.F4FEver wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:26 am...Want a gun but can't pass a BGC? Go to a gun show in Wyoming..show the FFL long green, go out in the parking lot, buy the gun...
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
7Absolutely correct and not uncommon. My solution? UBC...NO private sales, like that in Colorado. AND if you DO buy from a FFL in Wy, as a CO resident, it MUST be shipped to a CO FFL...Anecdotal only..Yaking with a couple of LGS people about them seeing and hearing about the scores somebody got at the latest Cheyenne gun show. And how no BGC was 'so cool'...Even a guy who owned a LGS(now closed)..I mentioned about the speed of getting the BGC done, buying a Glock 43 at his store..and he began his rant about background checks..ending with...'so much easier to just drive up to Cheyenne'.....BKinzey wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:51 pmThat would be illegal in multiple ways for the FFL and illegal for the buyer, breaking several laws as well. So what is your proposed solution? Since you have specifically disparaged Wyoming gun shows before, do you have information that this is an actual problem? I'd like to see it.F4FEver wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:26 am...Want a gun but can't pass a BGC? Go to a gun show in Wyoming..show the FFL long green, go out in the parking lot, buy the gun...
I've said it more than once, Easy access is the issue, NO, not any tool. I personally don't feel like my 2A 'rights' are being tread upon by doing the CBI BGC, which takes about 30 minutes.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
8We have all that you suggest here in CA and yet there isn't the desired result. You suggested that FFLs are making illegal sales in parking lots and that UBCs are a solution. That's not a solution. Your background check may be 30 minutes but California's includes a 10 day wait period. The State has been shown the wait period has little, if any, affect. We still have it. Other states are currently pushing to add waiting periods, so your UBC will most likely include a waiting period, so no, I'm not in favor of that.F4FEver wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:06 amAbsolutely correct and not uncommon. My solution? UBC...NO private sales, like that in Colorado. AND if you DO buy from a FFL in Wy, as a CO resident, it MUST be shipped to a CO FFL...Anecdotal only..Yaking with a couple of LGS people about them seeing and hearing about the scores somebody got at the latest Cheyenne gun show. And how no BGC was 'so cool'...Even a guy who owned a LGS(now closed)..I mentioned about the speed of getting the BGC done, buying a Glock 43 at his store..and he began his rant about background checks..ending with...'so much easier to just drive up to Cheyenne'.....BKinzey wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:51 pmThat would be illegal in multiple ways for the FFL and illegal for the buyer, breaking several laws as well. So what is your proposed solution? Since you have specifically disparaged Wyoming gun shows before, do you have information that this is an actual problem? I'd like to see it.F4FEver wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:26 am...Want a gun but can't pass a BGC? Go to a gun show in Wyoming..show the FFL long green, go out in the parking lot, buy the gun...
I've said it more than once, Easy access is the issue, NO, not any tool. I personally don't feel like my 2A 'rights' are being tread upon by doing the CBI BGC, which takes about 30 minutes.
Easy access isn't the issue. People's desire to commit violent acts is. Root Cause Mitigation is the solution to that, there is research and real examples that it does work.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
9No more private sales would be a solution to those who can't pass a BGC and go one state over and buy a gun via a LEGAL private sale. A more comprehensive BGC and RFL would prevent 'some' mass shooters from buying or keeping guns(like the Nashville shooter, like the Boulder shooter, like the Denver shooter, like the......)BKinzey wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:40 pmWe have all that you suggest here in CA and yet there isn't the desired result. You suggested that FFLs are making illegal sales in parking lots and that UBCs are a solution. That's not a solution. Your background check may be 30 minutes but California's includes a 10 day wait period. The State has been shown the wait period has little, if any, affect. We still have it. Other states are currently pushing to add waiting periods, so your UBC will most likely include a waiting period, so no, I'm not in favor of that.F4FEver wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:06 amAbsolutely correct and not uncommon. My solution? UBC...NO private sales, like that in Colorado. AND if you DO buy from a FFL in Wy, as a CO resident, it MUST be shipped to a CO FFL...Anecdotal only..Yaking with a couple of LGS people about them seeing and hearing about the scores somebody got at the latest Cheyenne gun show. And how no BGC was 'so cool'...Even a guy who owned a LGS(now closed)..I mentioned about the speed of getting the BGC done, buying a Glock 43 at his store..and he began his rant about background checks..ending with...'so much easier to just drive up to Cheyenne'.....BKinzey wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:51 pmThat would be illegal in multiple ways for the FFL and illegal for the buyer, breaking several laws as well. So what is your proposed solution? Since you have specifically disparaged Wyoming gun shows before, do you have information that this is an actual problem? I'd like to see it.F4FEver wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:26 am...Want a gun but can't pass a BGC? Go to a gun show in Wyoming..show the FFL long green, go out in the parking lot, buy the gun...
I've said it more than once, Easy access is the issue, NO, not any tool. I personally don't feel like my 2A 'rights' are being tread upon by doing the CBI BGC, which takes about 30 minutes.
Easy access isn't the issue. People's desire to commit violent acts is. Root Cause Mitigation is the solution to that, there is research and real examples that it does work.
Easy access to guns and people's desire to commit violent acts are hand in glove.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
10That wouldn't be legal. As per Federal laws if you purchase a firearm from outside your residency state you need to follow the laws of BOTH states. Private sales are not exempt.No more private sales would be a solution to those who can't pass a BGC and go one state over and buy a gun via a LEGAL private sale.
Of course people do do that, through lack of knowledge or defiance of the law.
Again, we have all that covered here in CA and aren't getting the desired result.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
11And knowingly selling to a felon in a private sale is ILLEGAL.BKinzey wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:33 pmThat wouldn't be legal. As per Federal laws if you purchase a firearm from outside your residency state you need to follow the laws of BOTH states. Private sales are not exempt.No more private sales would be a solution to those who can't pass a BGC and go one state over and buy a gun via a LEGAL private sale.
Of course people do do that, through lack of knowledge or defiance of the law.
Again, we have all that covered here in CA and aren't getting the desired result.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
12If you do a private sale in AZ you don't have to do a BGC and if you don't do a BGC you don't know if that person is a felon or has been flagged by a court for mental illness.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
13https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/th ... r-AA19N39nDispositionMatrix wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:20 pm This is part of the Enhanced Regulatory Enforcement under Biden.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulatio ... ent-policy
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/inv ... 568730002/
We will never know how many were "willful" violators and how many were not.
Per my recollection, a license can be revoked if an FFL typos, say, a NICS check transaction number or a serial number. So even though the background check was run, the ATF can revoke the license, claiming it had not been run. They have reinterpreted the word "willful" to mean any mistake made must have been done willfully.
Here is a story on the increase in revocations from last year:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-r ... r-on-guns/
Maybe take all this with a grain of salt. This guy got an FFL to open a gun shop, didn't follow any of the rules, knowingly facilitated straw purchases etc etc. Claimed it was all to complicated to understand.
He did a deal admitting to everything in exchange for getting all charges dropped if he behaves for 18 months.
I seriously doubt the ATF is revoking licenses left and right for typos. Do you have evidence for your claim about how the ATF interprets "willful"?
There are over 30,000 FFL01s in the ATF public listing. Revoking 90 of them in one year is not overregulation.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
14Morehouse Enterprises, LLC v. ATF
https://www.gunowners.com/cases/morehou ... -documents
The plaintiffs are seeking a preliminary injunction.
Saintliness of the plaintiffs aside, the court docs are revealing, particularly in reference to the ATF's changes to its Administrative Action Policy.
Looks like "willfulness" is now defined as such that since the FFL signed on the line saying he or she understood the rules for licensing, any mistakes, even clerical ones, are deemed willful.
It appears IOIs just plug the info into Spartan, and the latter passes sentence, determining whether an FFL is to be revoked.
Per the complaint, the ATF is circling back around to apply the revised AAP to cases that previously were resolved with warnings being issued and mistakes corrected.
https://www.gunowners.com/cases/morehou ... -documents
The plaintiffs are seeking a preliminary injunction.
Saintliness of the plaintiffs aside, the court docs are revealing, particularly in reference to the ATF's changes to its Administrative Action Policy.
Looks like "willfulness" is now defined as such that since the FFL signed on the line saying he or she understood the rules for licensing, any mistakes, even clerical ones, are deemed willful.
This looks to be in violation of 18 USC § 923(g)(3), which is part of FOPA. FOPA is included as an exhibit.Arguing that errors were the result of human mistakes or harmless misunderstandings of clearly documented regulatory requirements is irrelevant to the standard of willfulness.
It appears IOIs just plug the info into Spartan, and the latter passes sentence, determining whether an FFL is to be revoked.
Per the complaint, the ATF is circling back around to apply the revised AAP to cases that previously were resolved with warnings being issued and mistakes corrected.
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
15We are an FFL. We have to deal with the ATF regularly. A simple typo should not be cause for revoking a Federal Firearms License.
And yes, I'd like to see Shotgun Joe Biden focusing on other things that actually will do some good for the country, like encouraging investment in racial minority communities (e. g. the "Black" part of DeKalb County, GA). That would help with root-cause mitigation. Same goes for parts of the Virginia Beach area that don't get enough investment (surprise, surprise, they're majority-Black). Let's see Shotgun Joe focus on stuff like *that* instead.
And yes, I'd like to see Shotgun Joe Biden focusing on other things that actually will do some good for the country, like encouraging investment in racial minority communities (e. g. the "Black" part of DeKalb County, GA). That would help with root-cause mitigation. Same goes for parts of the Virginia Beach area that don't get enough investment (surprise, surprise, they're majority-Black). Let's see Shotgun Joe focus on stuff like *that* instead.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
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Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
16Seller, 'you aren't a felon, are ya?'sikacz wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:00 amAnd knowingly selling to a felon in a private sale is ILLEGAL.BKinzey wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:33 pmThat wouldn't be legal. As per Federal laws if you purchase a firearm from outside your residency state you need to follow the laws of BOTH states. Private sales are not exempt.No more private sales would be a solution to those who can't pass a BGC and go one state over and buy a gun via a LEGAL private sale.
Of course people do do that, through lack of knowledge or defiance of the law.
Again, we have all that covered here in CA and aren't getting the desired result.
Buyer, 'nope, not me'...C'mon....
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
17CowboyT wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:56 pm We are an FFL. We have to deal with the ATF regularly. A simple typo should not be cause for revoking a Federal Firearms License.
And yes, I'd like to see Shotgun Joe Biden focusing on other things that actually will do some good for the country, like encouraging investment in racial minority communities (e. g. the "Black" part of DeKalb County, GA). That would help with root-cause mitigation. Same goes for parts of the Virginia Beach area that don't get enough investment (surprise, surprise, they're majority-Black). Let's see Shotgun Joe focus on stuff like *that* instead.
President Biden's American Rescue Plan has helped Americans, including Black Americans, stay in their homes by providing emergency rental assistance. Over 8 million households were served by Emergency Rental Assistance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p478g5mBDQOn my first day in office, I signed Executive Order 13985 of January 20, 2021 (Advancing Racial Equity and Support for Underserved Communities Through the Federal Government), which charged the Federal Government with advancing equity for all, including communities that have long been underserved, and addressing ...
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
18https://thegunwriter.substack.com/p/atf ... -homebased
A 22-year home-based FFL in Texas faces revocation over past procedural and clerical mistakes resolved in previous ATF audits. Those cases were closed, with Harris, the FFL, being cleared.
Following his most recent audit, Harris was cleared in a beef the ATF had with a purchaser. (https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... -DOING.pdf)
Errors for which ensuing corrections formerly were viewed as instructive by the ATF under their pre-2022 Administrative Action Policy (AAP) are now automatically interpreted as "willful" under the 2022 AAP.
The word "willfully" is included in both violations listed in the revocation notice from the ATF:
https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... .22.23.pdf
Harris alleges ATF agents photographed his bound book and demanded his "entire electronic database." Looks like the revocation is a done deal at this point.
Harris's Sporting Arms site:
https://store.sportingarms.com/
A 22-year home-based FFL in Texas faces revocation over past procedural and clerical mistakes resolved in previous ATF audits. Those cases were closed, with Harris, the FFL, being cleared.
Following his most recent audit, Harris was cleared in a beef the ATF had with a purchaser. (https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... -DOING.pdf)
Errors for which ensuing corrections formerly were viewed as instructive by the ATF under their pre-2022 Administrative Action Policy (AAP) are now automatically interpreted as "willful" under the 2022 AAP.
The word "willfully" is included in both violations listed in the revocation notice from the ATF:
https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... .22.23.pdf
Harris alleges ATF agents photographed his bound book and demanded his "entire electronic database." Looks like the revocation is a done deal at this point.
Harris's Sporting Arms site:
https://store.sportingarms.com/
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
19Hope the Firearms Policy Coalition [FPC] and/or the Second Amendment Foundation [SAF] step in and file a lawsuit challenging ATF. There is a better chance of fighting this case in federal court in Texas than in California.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: ATF posts FFL revocations and dealers it has run out of business
20En banc petition filed with the 8th Circuit in Morehouse v. ATF.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67 ... earms-and/
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67 ... earms-and/
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