Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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featureless wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:57 am
...lands people who have used or are using the mental health system on a list where there has been no due process. Or, it puts their therapist/doc in the position of sole discretion of adding said person to the list. Or, it treats any mental health patient as suspect and finds them guilty enough to at least deny them a fundamental right. It's persecutory at best. It will absolutely keep people who can be helped by mental health treatment from seeking it out. There's enough stigma around it already.

Because, in California, if I'd been even voluntarily held at the hospital for observation/treatment concerning "mental health" (GAD is in my charts) rather than cardiac health, I'd get a 5 year ban of firearm possession and, depending on who's making the subjective determination, my right to a CCW forever. Doesn't matter one iota that I'm not a danger to myself or others once you get to "apply the system." Hell of a system, eh? 1 out of 10, do not recommend.
Okay, a couple of things here. First of all, as you probably know from some of my other posts, I take your general point: The laws, even as they stand, may discourage some folks from getting mental health treatment. And that's a serious problem-- it's why we need a whole other system for mental health, like some of the temporary safe storage options that some are experimenting with now.

However, I believe you are not correct about admitting yourself voluntarily to a mental hospital. In fact, sometimes when a young person goes through intake at a mental hospital, they are told: "Look, you can either admit yourself voluntarily, which means you keep your rights, or roll the dice on whether we demand you stay here involuntarily, and the odds are high you will be held involuntarily."

Of course, that's another problem, because how voluntary is THAT?!

But if you are voluntarily admitted, I don't think you lose your right to own a firearm.

Per 18 USC 922(g)(4), per some ambulance-chasing attorney's website:

"committed to a mental institution" does NOT include someone in a mental hospital for observation or by voluntary admission UNLESS you're being held on a Temporary Detention Order.

Per Gavin Newsom's website:

"California has some of the nation’s strongest laws preventing those with serious mental illness from acquiring firearms. California law requires the immediate reporting of involuntary inpatient and outpatient treatment as well as those under guardianship. Mental health treatment facilities and psychotherapists are also required to report under certain circumstances."

And the circumstances under which we are required to report are imminent threat to a reasonably identifiable other. And remember, the stakes are high: If we breach confidentiality without a good reason to, clients can sue the fuck out of us. (Except for Child and Elder abuse, where we are allowed to make mistakes.)

Also, I can't imagine a situation in which someone with GAD would be held involuntarily.

The more serious risk is when therapists pull the trigger on hospitalization too soon-- if a client says, "I just want to disappear" and doesn't have a plan, and denies they would act on it. There you have situations where you could trigger an involuntary hospitalization and all the crap it entails.

If I've got that wrong, please let me know, maybe there's some new loophole I haven't heard about.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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As it is, I expect the smarter choice is not to get one’s self on any list as having a mental issue. Regardless of how it is now, there are voices as seen in this thread that would indiscriminately add people to the banned list. Sure I’d prefer everyone seeks help, but I definitely understand why someone would not.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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State and federal law make it unlawful for certain persons to own and/or possess firearms,

A list prepared by the CA AG.
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agwe ... atmisd.pdf



Regarding the topic of Covenant School:
A woman who was at the Nashville, Tennessee, school during the mass shooting on March 27 told police that a few staff members typically carry a gun on campus, according to a police call obtained by The Tennessean.

In a call to police dispatch around 10:12 a.m., a woman who was hiding in The Covenant School's nursery office said there were a few staff members whose job it was to provide security, according to the local newspaper.

"We do have a school person or two ... I'm not sure ... who would be packing, whose job it is for security," the woman said, according to The Tennessean. "We don't have security guards, but we have staff."

It's unclear if the staff members in question were present at the school during the incident or what the campus's policies are around carrying weapons. The Metropolitan Nashville Police Department did not immediately respond to a request for comment. A spokesperson for The Covenant School said they are looking into Insider's inquiry.
https://www.insider.com/nashville-coven ... ing-2023-4
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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sikacz wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:18 am As it is, I expect the smarter choice is not to get one’s self on any list as having a mental issue. Regardless of how it is now, there are voices as seen in this thread that would indiscriminately add people to the banned list. Sure I’d prefer everyone seeks help, but I definitely understand why someone would not.
NOT indiscriminate and NOT a ban...but just a red flag, meaning, let's take a closer look at this individual..If the BGC system wasn't such a joke, this could happen.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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SunRiseWest wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:09 am
featureless wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:57 am
...lands people who have used or are using the mental health system on a list where there has been no due process. Or, it puts their therapist/doc in the position of sole discretion of adding said person to the list. Or, it treats any mental health patient as suspect and finds them guilty enough to at least deny them a fundamental right. It's persecutory at best. It will absolutely keep people who can be helped by mental health treatment from seeking it out. There's enough stigma around it already.

Because, in California, if I'd been even voluntarily held at the hospital for observation/treatment concerning "mental health" (GAD is in my charts) rather than cardiac health, I'd get a 5 year ban of firearm possession and, depending on who's making the subjective determination, my right to a CCW forever. Doesn't matter one iota that I'm not a danger to myself or others once you get to "apply the system." Hell of a system, eh? 1 out of 10, do not recommend.
Okay, a couple of things here. First of all, as you probably know from some of my other posts, I take your general point: The laws, even as they stand, may discourage some folks from getting mental health treatment. And that's a serious problem-- it's why we need a whole other system for mental health, like some of the temporary safe storage options that some are experimenting with now.

However, I believe you are not correct about admitting yourself voluntarily to a mental hospital. In fact, sometimes when a young person goes through intake at a mental hospital, they are told: "Look, you can either admit yourself voluntarily, which means you keep your rights, or roll the dice on whether we demand you stay here involuntarily, and the odds are high you will be held involuntarily."

Of course, that's another problem, because how voluntary is THAT?!

But if you are voluntarily admitted, I don't think you lose your right to own a firearm.

Per 18 USC 922(g)(4), per some ambulance-chasing attorney's website:

"committed to a mental institution" does NOT include someone in a mental hospital for observation or by voluntary admission UNLESS you're being held on a Temporary Detention Order.

Per Gavin Newsom's website:

"California has some of the nation’s strongest laws preventing those with serious mental illness from acquiring firearms. California law requires the immediate reporting of involuntary inpatient and outpatient treatment as well as those under guardianship. Mental health treatment facilities and psychotherapists are also required to report under certain circumstances."

And the circumstances under which we are required to report are imminent threat to a reasonably identifiable other. And remember, the stakes are high: If we breach confidentiality without a good reason to, clients can sue the fuck out of us. (Except for Child and Elder abuse, where we are allowed to make mistakes.)

Also, I can't imagine a situation in which someone with GAD would be held involuntarily.

The more serious risk is when therapists pull the trigger on hospitalization too soon-- if a client says, "I just want to disappear" and doesn't have a plan, and denies they would act on it. There you have situations where you could trigger an involuntary hospitalization and all the crap it entails.

If I've got that wrong, please let me know, maybe there's some new loophole I haven't heard about.
Ain't no mental health hospitals in CA! Your option in crisis is jail or the ER where you wait, sometimes for months, for a bed at an actual mental health facility. Speaking from experience from another person I've been involved with, a voluntary 5150 results in a 5 year ban in California. I do not know about other states. I agree, GAD would not likely land me there, but with an overzealous doc, it sure could. Obviously, it wasn't a risk I was willing to take. GAD is in my record and I have done therapy for it.

Further, there's a world of different between chronic and acute. Acute will almost always get you a 5150 in California (voluntary or not) because it may very well be a day or two before you're even seen. As you mention, sue the fuck out of. ER docs are not immune on that front, either.

I do agree there are certain mental health issues that should be reason to deny access to firearms. But that is extremely complicated. My pushback is to add "mental health" to the background check. That is overly simplistic and will absolutely result in people not seeking care.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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I agree CDF, post-Bruen there are already lawsuits over who can legally purchase and own a firearm, the earlier case of a man indicted but not convicted and his firearms were seized. If there isn't one already I expect there will be one over non-violent felons, like a white collar felon who embezzled or committed fraud, but there was zero violence or threats.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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featureless wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:57 am
Ain't no mental health hospitals in CA! Your option in crisis is jail or the ER where you wait, sometimes for months, for a bed at an actual mental health facility. Speaking from experience from another person I've been involved with, a voluntary 5150 results in a 5 year ban in California. I do not know about other states. I agree, GAD would not likely land me there, but with an overzealous doc, it sure could. Obviously, it wasn't a risk I was willing to take. GAD is in my record and I have done therapy for it.

Further, there's a world of different between chronic and acute. Acute will almost always get you a 5150 in California (voluntary or not) because it may very well be a day or two before you're even seen. As you mention, sue the fuck out of. ER docs are not immune on that front, either.

I do agree there are certain mental health issues that should be reason to deny access to firearms. But that is extremely complicated. My pushback is to add "mental health" to the background check. That is overly simplistic and will absolutely result in people not seeking care.
Again, I don't think we disagree about the politics.

But there is no such thing as an "involuntary" 5150. 5150's are, by definition, committing someone against their will. If someone told you otherwise? They lied. Which is not impossible, wouldn't be the biggest whopper I've heard a licensed professional tell.

Also, there are many psychiatric hospitals in California! (Charter Oak is one of the worst, Ronald Reagan being one of the best.) Many of them are private, though they do take various types of insurance.

I've been to both Charter Oak and Ronald Reagan visiting friends or clients. They look like every other mental hospital I've ever been to anywhere else. As a practical matter, sure-- if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you could wind up in the situation where you are held in the ER for several days, but I don't know how they'd manage that, ERs are pretty busy.

Also: I've never heard of anyone being sent to prison in a situation like that. Even guys who thought the Lizard People were chasing them. Not saying it never happened somewhere, but if so, it sounds like a rare and really unusual circumstance.

As for what someone with panic attack or severe depression might do in a crisis without triggering a firearms ban, they can go to a community mental health center-- in Los Angeles, that's someplace like Didi Hirsch, the LA LGBT Center, etc. It's not easy to navigate the system, sure-- but you can get urgent care there. And so long as you're not 5150, that record exists in some backwater of your electronic health record. Other health care providers can see it, sure-- but LEOs or courts can't just wander in and start snooping around it absent a terrorist threat or court order. There's no digital infrastructure that I know of for these voluntary treatment records to be flagged or referred to state or federal authorities. All the EHRs are different, and clinicians have no reporting requirement in the scenario I described above.

The only discretionary report would be a GVRO, which is the red flag thing. Those could be abused, sure, but that's a separate issue that shouldn't be triggered in the scenario I described above.

I've had suicidal clients in crisis treatment for weeks-- check-in calls every night: "How are you doing? Any thoughts about the sharp objects? Did you call a friend today or go for a walk like we planned?" These individuals would be eligible to purchase firearms. There's no requirement for any mental health professional to talk to anyone about anything in those situations. I can't let anyone see those records.

If I receive a subpoena from an attorney in a criminal or civil case demanding my records, there is one legal response: Fuck you. This isn't a court order, I'm not giving you dick. (Though I don't have to say it that way.) A court order, yeah, I have to comply with that... but I'm getting off track.

It's a slippery slope, but we haven't slid that far yet. I don't think you could reasonably add 'mental health' to a background check, don't see how it would be logsitically or digitally possible. I just don't see how more routine mental health information would even be flagged, let alone released to some authority. I suppose it's possible, but not likely to happen soon, IMHO.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Sunrise,

I've had to take someone to the ER twice for mental health crisis. Both times were voluntary hold. Both times, discharge papers included acknowledgement of no firearms for 5 years. First hold, person was in ER for two days waiting on a bed. Second hold, 4 weeks at a holding type hospital facility before placement. It was fucking horrific.

As far as jail, I have a friend who has a family member with bipolar disorder. He landed in jail for assault (minor), no charges pressed. Judge ordered treatment. He's been sitting in jail for months waiting on an available bed. Months.

California's mental healthcare system is so fucked up it defies belief.

Perhaps rich folk have better access.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Once upon a time we had a system of state hospitals in CA, IIRC there were 20 maybe or more. The Lanterman-Petris-Short Act limited involuntary commitments and closed almost all the state hospitals. The involuntary commitment process was abused, not only in CA but in other states.
Atascadero and Patton still exist for the criminally insane and few others have developmentally disabled patients. The money the state saved from closing state hospitals was supposed to have gone to the counties to bolster their community mental health services, it never happened.
The 2023-24 Governor’s Budget proposes spending of $296.9 billion in total state funds, consisting of approximately $223.6 billion from the General Fund, $70.4 billion from special funds, and $2.9 billion from bond funds.
I'm sure there is plenty that could be trimmed from CA's budget such as the Handgun Roster and that money could go to counties to bolster public mental health. Bolstering mental health services is more than just hiring more psychiatrists and adding more hospital beds, patients on psychotropic meds need regular monitoring and that means more staff. The state's homeless problem is also a mental health problem.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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highdesert wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:28 pm Once upon a time we had a system of state hospitals in CA, IIRC there were 20 maybe or more. The state's homeless problem is also a mental health problem.
Thank you Ronald Reagan. It was an immediate problem. They just threw people out on the street, said see ya later whether or not they had family willing to take them. Just disgusting.
Process for sure was abused, not so much by the time Ronnie pulled the plug.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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tonguengroover wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:37 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:28 pm Once upon a time we had a system of state hospitals in CA, IIRC there were 20 maybe or more. The state's homeless problem is also a mental health problem.
Thank you Ronald Reagan. It was an immediate problem. They just threw people out on the street, said see ya later whether or not they had family willing to take them. Just disgusting.
Process for sure was abused, not so much by the time Ronnie pulled the plug.
Exactly so. I lived in Berkeley when they all got out. Fun times.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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<< I've had to take someone to the ER twice for mental health crisis. Both times were voluntary hold. Both times, discharge papers included acknowledgement of no firearms for 5 years. >>

Thank you for explaining this. I believe you. I also believe that if there was no involuntary hold, no 5150, then what happened to friend-or-family-member #1 was against the law-- and just fucking evil. No 5150 means no legal consequences, and that is how involuntary commitments are often marketed to patients.

<< California's mental healthcare system is so fucked up it defies belief. >>

I already knew that, but after hearing your story, my jaw is on the fucking floor.

<< As far as jail, I have a friend who has a family member with bipolar disorder. He landed in jail for assault (minor), no charges pressed. Judge ordered treatment. He's been sitting in jail for months waiting on an available bed. Months. >>

So they are being deprived of their liberty for longer than they would be if they were neurotypical-- essentially, their diagnosis resulted in harsher punishment? Minor assault with no charges, usually you walk for that, unless it's DV, and then maybe you spend a night or two in jail. Generally true for low-income folks, too, at least in Los Angeles.

<< Perhaps rich folk have better access. >>

That's part of it, but another is whether you have an advocate or not. A client who is mobbed up with a community mental health center should have a case manager breathing down the hospital's neck. That helps. My clients are often from disenfranchised populations, but the ones at the college have a case manager and they also have me, and I will hover at the nursing station asking questions until I get answers that make sense. And while I'm independent, I know the school probably has my back, the case manager's back, and the client/student's back. The hospital knows that, too.

Wealthier clients are exploited in different ways. My client found that she'd been charged hundreds of dollars for a psych exam that absolutely never took place. They said maybe client didn't remember. I said, "No, I was with client that day, both before and after you medicated the fuck out of them, and she was alert and oriented x4. If she said she didn't see a psychiatrist, she didn't see a psychiatrist." They removed the charge.

It's like dealing with the mob. But your story blows mine out of the water.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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tonguengroover wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:37 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:28 pm Once upon a time we had a system of state hospitals in CA, IIRC there were 20 maybe or more. The state's homeless problem is also a mental health problem.
Thank you Ronald Reagan. It was an immediate problem. They just threw people out on the street, said see ya later whether or not they had family willing to take them. Just disgusting.
Process for sure was abused, not so much by the time Ronnie pulled the plug.
Wasn't it Prop 101 that nearly destroyed the California Public Education system under RR?
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Investigators found a suicide note when they searched the home of the shooter who killed six people at a Nashville school last week, along with weapons and ammunition, according to an inventory items authorities seized while executing a search warrant at the residence.

The search warrant and the list of items found were released Tuesday, just over a week after the shooter, identified as Audrey Hale, stormed the Covenant School armed with three firearms and killed three 9-year-olds and three adults.

The 28-year-old Hale, who police said was under care for an emotional disorder, had legally purchased seven firearms and hidden them at home, Metropolitan Nashville Police Chief John Drake previously said.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/04/us/coven ... index.html
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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CDFingers wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:16 pm
tonguengroover wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:37 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:28 pm Once upon a time we had a system of state hospitals in CA, IIRC there were 20 maybe or more. The state's homeless problem is also a mental health problem.
Thank you Ronald Reagan. It was an immediate problem. They just threw people out on the street, said see ya later whether or not they had family willing to take them. Just disgusting.
Process for sure was abused, not so much by the time Ronnie pulled the plug.
Exactly so. I lived in Berkeley when they all got out. Fun times.

CDFingers
I used to visit someone in the DC area after Reagan became President. in 1983 I moved to Alexandria and worked in the District. Under Reagan, the homeless problem EXPLODED in DC--homeless people were everywhere. They'd join together to get blue tarps that they would tie over Federal vents to create a sort of balloon tent to keep from dying of exposure during nights that were in the 20's or even the teens. Just to stay warm enough to sleep without dying. Under the 1st Bush the government started cracking down on the tarps because....it looked "bad"!

Then, at one point (in the early 80's), most of the homeless disappeared...they had been bussed out to Antelope, Oregon ("Rajneeshpurim") where the Bhagwan was trying to recruit / enslave them into his cult. Rajneeshis had to give him all their worldly possessions and he had 17 Rolls Royces! Because HE didn't and wouldn't live in poverty! The Baghwan was indicted in 1985 and agreed to leave to return to India where he died in 1990. As Rajneeshpurim collapsed, the homeless found their way back to DC and the problem ensued.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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highdesert wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:14 pm
Investigators found a suicide note when they searched the home of the shooter who killed six people at a Nashville school last week, along with weapons and ammunition, according to an inventory items authorities seized while executing a search warrant at the residence.

The search warrant and the list of items found were released Tuesday, just over a week after the shooter, identified as Audrey Hale, stormed the Covenant School armed with three firearms and killed three 9-year-olds and three adults.

The 28-year-old Hale, who police said was under care for an emotional disorder, had legally purchased seven firearms and hidden them at home, Metropolitan Nashville Police Chief John Drake previously said.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/04/us/coven ... index.html
Once again...and
No fly lists or mental health lists, given the opportunity to access information and the legal grounds to use it, it will be abused.
Of course but not a reason to not try to design these programs and restrictions where they might, I donno, prevent 3 9 year olds from getting murdered? At least improve those programs, don't just throw up your hands and say, 'oh well, gotta expect loses'...or some such BS.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Toxic masculinity has a way of ego-trippin into ruining many people‘s lives for self-aggrandizement. It is a cultural illness, not just this individual’s problem.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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CDFingers wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:16 pm
tonguengroover wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:37 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:28 pm Once upon a time we had a system of state hospitals in CA, IIRC there were 20 maybe or more. The state's homeless problem is also a mental health problem.
Thank you Ronald Reagan. It was an immediate problem. They just threw people out on the street, said see ya later whether or not they had family willing to take them. Just disgusting.
Process for sure was abused, not so much by the time Ronnie pulled the plug.
Exactly so. I lived in Berkeley when they all got out. Fun times.

CDFingers
Yup, Reagan signed the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act in 1967 that closed the state hospitals over a number of years. I was a college student and through classes got to see the change. I visited a state hospital with other students, it was an institution built for 2,000 patients and it housed 4,000 patients, it was an open campus with security. Female patients got a birth control pill every morning with their regular meds. I remember the day rooms full of highly medicated and catatonic patients sitting in rows. We also visited the back wards with the violent patients, who were in individual rooms with a common area. Depressing place, I remember being very thankful none of my family was in a place like that.

County hospitals were slightly better, they detoxed and kept patients for only 30 days and then sent them to a state hospital. I sat in on a number of involuntary commitment proceedings, a superior court judge came to the hospital twice a week.

An article by a CA DA who summarizes California's homeless problem.
Ronald Reagan and Jerry Brown, two of the most consequential governors ever in California, led the state during two of the most well intended but poorly executed movements in this state’s history. The first was the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill. The second resulted in fewer prison inmates, and significant increases in homelessness and untreated mental illness.

Ronald Reagan emptied the psychiatric hospitals and Jerry Brown emptied the prisons, or so some people say. Although neither statement is completely true, there are elements of harsh reality in both. And they are connected. The first was the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill starting in the 1960’s. The movement, started in Europe, was supported by President Kennedy and ultimately complicated by a U.S. Supreme Court opinion and civil liberty concerns over forced treatment. The second in recent years was fueled by concerns about perceived mass incarceration, and the reality that our jails and prisons had become the de facto mental facilities. The result: fewer inmates, and significant increases in homelessness and untreated mental illness.
Senate Bill 1045 became law Jan. 1, and authorizes pilot programs to create housing conservatorships for people with serious mental health illness and substance use disorders who do not qualify for Lanterman-Petris-Short Act conservatorship in Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. This is a modest step, but it could help insure treatment for people with mental disorders outside the criminal justice system. Community based treatment before extreme decompensation, such as has worked in Europe, could greatly reduce incarceration and homelessness. Ultimately, isn’t it time to reevaluate our legal perspective that essentially determined that the mind was like a light switch, where a person is either perfectly sane or an immediate threat to him- or herself and others?
https://calmatters.org/commentary/2019/ ... n-and-now/

State hospitals weren't the answer, some people got involuntarily committed and never got out. Our jails and prisons then because the state hospitals, LEOs aren't psychiatrists or clinical therapists and patients deserve treatment and not incarceration.


Saw this article this morning, the coordinator of a homeless shelter in Vermont was murdered by a resident who should have been hospitalized, it's not just California.
'A good person is dead': Witness describes slaying of shelter coordinator
https://archive.fo/stvWK
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Another case that's not good after Nashville.
The 18th Judicial District Attorney’s Office filed formal charges against a 19-year-old who allegedly planned shootings at multiple schools within Academy School District 20. On Thursday, April 6, William Whitworth, who identifies as “Lilly Whitworth,” was formally charged with the following offenses:
Criminal attempt to commit first-degree murder (two counts)
Criminal mischief
Menacing
Interference with staff, faculty or students of educational institutions
The defendant’s preliminary hearing is slated for May 5 at 2:30 p.m. Her bond is set at $75,000.
According to an affidavit, a deputy with the Elbert County Sheriff’s Office was called to a disturbance in the 13900 block of Double Tree Ranch Circle in the unincorporated town of Elbert on the evening of Friday, March 31. The 911 caller reported her sister, identified as Lilly Whitworth, threatened to shoot up a school at least twice and has severe anger issues, per arrest papers.
While being questioned, Whitworth told the deputy she had been planning a school shooting for “a month or two” and was “about a third of the way from doing it.” Timberview Middle School was currently a “main target,” with other targets being churches, per the affidavit. The deputy asked why that school and she stated, “No specific reason.”
A drawn layout of the school was found on a dry-erase board labeled with the following: “Office???” “Bio?” “Math,” “Bathrooms,” among others. The first and second floors of the school were also labeled, according to the affidavit. Whitworth told deputies her manifesto was four pages with “schizophrenic rants” and mentions of mass killers and serial killers. During a search, deputies later found the manifesto, which listed firearms and how to 3D print them, numerous named individuals to be killed and their casualty versus injury rate, and information detailing the creation of improvised explosive devices, per arrest papers. The manifesto also included the finalization of locations, which included Timberview Middle School, Prairie Hills Elementary and Pine Creek High School.
https://kdvr.com/news/local/19-year-old ... manifesto/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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