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Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

1 by YankeeTarheel
Anyone who has ever owned a hardtop/clam-shell convertible should want to never, EVER see a canvas soft-top ever again.
Yet for the 2024 model year it seems EVERY company that made one has stopped.
The claim is that they are heavier, they are mechanically complex, and, most importantly, they ruin the "sporty" look.
I call BULSHIT!
The advantages are; No maintenance of the top's exterior that's different than the rest of the body; in an accident, clam-shells have 90% of an integral roof's strength; you don't get the inevitable whistling when the top is up; Winter time the top is warmer, being better sealed an insulated; Weather beats the SHIT ouf soft tops, shortening their lifespan and looking ugly; When the top is down, you cannot see a difference between a car with a soft or hard top; and last and MOST important: You can't cut a hard roof, meaning you CAN park your car somewhere other than in a supervised lot.

Also, stick shifts are going away too. So my 2007 BMW 335i with a six speed is simply THE most fun car to drive I've ever experienced. Sucks in snow --no AWD was available for years. And it's a clamshell, too.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

3 by SunRiseWest
Wow. As the owner of a 2016 MX5 (ND) soft-top, I kind of disagree. I do like the look of the RF, but went with the soft top because it was more practical. I'd rather replace that than the hard top, but I hate all kinds of mechanical complexity. If I could retrofit the electric windows with hand cranks, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Visibility in the MX5 is better with the soft top down than the hard top down. Weight distribution is better, too. My (stock) soft top is coming up on seven years old, and still has at least a couple of years left in it-- though yes, it is discolored-- and I haven't done a damn thing to take care of it.

I owned a red '99 MX5 with a black top, and it did look amazing; people did not think it was a Miata. And it came in handy, because the (non stock but new) top I bought it with only lasted three years. However, I learned that the hard tops are very much in demand-- and made the NB (both the top and the entire vehicle) more likely to be stolen. I know that's a 'removable' hard top, and so a bit different than what you are talking about. Before I learned about that, though I did park the NB with the hard top in many long-term lots-- including a lot in Vegas for a week. No problems.

As for the supervised lot issue, in California, I've NEVER worried about that, and always park on the street whenever possible anyway to avoid door dings. I often leave the doors unlocked b/c there's nothing in the car. But that is part of a strange anomaly: The ND Miata is one of the 20 least likely cars to be stolen. (BMW 3 series is the least, MX5 is 19th least likely to be stolen.)

I think a stick shift does make a car less likely to be stolen, and yes, both of mine were sticks, I haven't driven anything else in almost 35 years. IMHO, the MX5's Achilles heel is the power steering. It should be power assist. I think the MX5 handles better than my CRX, but even with traction control, I will push the CRX closer to the edge because I can feel when it is going to break away. I will say that the MX5 ND does recover well, WAY better than the NB, which was really challenging to control.

My NB was a heartbreaker-- she started blowing spark plugs out of the block, which, if you've never had it happen, is deeply disturbing at 80 MPH-- it sounds like you lost the muffler, and the cabin fills with the smell of gasoline. (And I was smoking cigarettes at the time.) I helicoiled the plugs and got a couple of more years out of her, but she began overheating and no mods to the cooling system or anything else could control it. He bought it from me for $1,100 as a favor, and gave it to his son, but then took it back again. The car was too difficult for his son (22 years old) to drive safely, kept fishtailing and spinning out. I wasn't surprised.

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

5 by YankeeTarheel
I've had a number of clam-shells, and while the cars have been good and bad, the clam-shells have been reliable. As for thefts, every week in our "nice" town some idiot leaves the car unlocked with the fob inside--and it's stolen. But lately they've been breaking into houses and stealing the fob and the car. Cars are also broken into for valuable and clearly it's easier to break into a rag-top.

I grew up with convertibles. My mom had a '57 Olds, a '59 Catalina --powder blue with a matching blue top, a '67 LeMans--fire-engine red with a '69 GTO 400 engine--man! I LOVED that car! And an '80's something Dodge 400, all rag-tops.

I've had 2 SLK320's--the 2nd one went 5 years. My wife had two SL55 AMGs--awesome when they were 100% but rarely were, an M6, and she currently has a 2018 430i xDrive, and I have the 2007 330i. The SLKs and the 330i were all sticks, the SLKs and SLs were clamshells as are the Beemers, and only her M6 was a rag-top.

So I've had LOTS of experience with both rags and clam shells for more than 60 years, and it's no contest: Clam shells are INHO, infinitely preferable.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

6 by sig230
I recently had an urge to get a Miata or Mini Roadster og MGB or Healey or ... but decided against it when we had 100F on March 1. The salesman was calling trying to convince me to go ahead and when I explained that it really wasn't anything except nostalgia for a rag top there was utter and complete silence. Then "I don't understand?"

Looks like it's not just rag tops that have passed me by.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

7 by YankeeTarheel
Convertibles have had A/C for at least 40 years, if not 50. All of mine have, and my mom's last one did, too.
My brother has a Miata and he and his 6'3" step son drove 8 hours from North Carolina to my house in it. When they got here my poor nephew was twisted like a pretzel!
I like the idea of a Miata but was not able to get comfortable riding in one.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

8 by highdesert
I agree with SRW, the fact that they're stick shift probably also helps keep them from being stolen. Teens now days don't get driving licenses as early as we did and there are fewer stick shift cars on the road. My last car was stick and I remember going to pick it up after it was serviced, the service manager had to find someone who knew how to drive stick to drive it to the customer area.

In much of Europe if you take your driving license exam with a manual transmission vehicle, you can legally drive any vehicle, if you take your license exam in an automatic you can legally drive only automatics. Funny Spanish film out last year called "I Don't Like Driving" about a university professor in Madrid who decides to get his license after inheriting his father's car.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

9 by YankeeTarheel
highdesert wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:53 am I agree with SRW, the fact that they're stick shift probably also helps keep them from being stolen. Teens now days don't get driving licenses as early as we did and there are fewer stick shift cars on the road. My last car was stick and I remember going to pick it up after it was serviced, the service manager had to find someone who knew how to drive stick to drive it to the customer area.

In much of Europe if you take your driving license exam with a manual transmission vehicle, you can legally drive any vehicle, if you take your license exam in an automatic you can legally drive only automatics. Funny Spanish film out last year called "I Don't Like Driving" about a university professor in Madrid who decides to get his license after inheriting his father's car.
They don't just steal them. They break in and steal whatever you left in the car. 24 years ago, someone broke into our garage and stole my Palm Pilot out of my unlocked truck. Our cars are locked IN the garage ever since.

There's nothing like driving a stick. I'm surprised that with all the motorcycle drivers around, there aren't more who can drive sticks. Very few bikes are automatics--almost all have clutches and shifters. Yeah, it's upside down from a car (Left hand clutch, left foot rotary shifter...one down, 2-5 or 2-6 up, neutral between 1 & 2), but the technique is identical. I learned to drive a stick in HS Driver's Ed. If you were in Driver's Ed and had a NY jr. license, they'd teach you stick. Why take the class if you had your jr license? 2 reasons. Back then, you could get your senior license at 17 instead of 18 if you passed Driver's Ed, and your parents got an insurance break. So I've been able to drive a stick for over 50 years (plus I have 2 motorcycles).
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

10 by highdesert
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:10 am
highdesert wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:53 am I agree with SRW, the fact that they're stick shift probably also helps keep them from being stolen. Teens now days don't get driving licenses as early as we did and there are fewer stick shift cars on the road. My last car was stick and I remember going to pick it up after it was serviced, the service manager had to find someone who knew how to drive stick to drive it to the customer area.

In much of Europe if you take your driving license exam with a manual transmission vehicle, you can legally drive any vehicle, if you take your license exam in an automatic you can legally drive only automatics. Funny Spanish film out last year called "I Don't Like Driving" about a university professor in Madrid who decides to get his license after inheriting his father's car.
They don't just steal them. They break in and steal whatever you left in the car. 24 years ago, someone broke into our garage and stole my Palm Pilot out of my unlocked truck. Our cars are locked IN the garage ever since.

There's nothing like driving a stick. I'm surprised that with all the motorcycle drivers around, there aren't more who can drive sticks. Very few bikes are automatics--almost all have clutches and shifters. Yeah, it's upside down from a car (Left hand clutch, left foot rotary shifter...one down, 2-5 or 2-6 up, neutral between 1 & 2), but the technique is identical. I learned to drive a stick in HS Driver's Ed. If you were in Driver's Ed and had a NY jr. license, they'd teach you stick. Why take the class if you had your jr license? 2 reasons. Back then, you could get your senior license at 17 instead of 18 if you passed Driver's Ed, and your parents got an insurance break. So I've been able to drive a stick for over 50 years (plus I have 2 motorcycles).
I learned to drive in a car with a column shifter - 3 forward and I reverse. Over the years I've had 3 vehicles with manual transmissions - 4,5 and 6 speed manuals. Driving stick is like riding a bike, once you learn it you never forget.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

12 by BearPaws
highdesert wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:53 am

In much of Europe if you take your driving license exam with a manual transmission vehicle, you can legally drive any vehicle, if you take your license exam in an automatic you can legally drive only automatics. Funny Spanish film out last year called "I Don't Like Driving" about a university professor in Madrid who decides to get his license after inheriting his father's car.
This holds for CDL/A certification drives in the US for semis. I thought I wanted to drive a big truck a few times over the years, and have driven a couple for casual jobs helping friends before the CDL requirements were in force some time in the 1990s.
Eventually I'll figure out this signature thing and decide what I want to put here.

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

13 by wings
Oh, if I ever went for one, I'd go ragtop all the way. They aren't practical cars. That's the point.

End of the day, I convinced myself years ago that the actual cost, environmental damage and physical risk of slinging a small sports car around back country roads for recreation were significantly higher than those associated with a responsible firearms hobby. So here I am.

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

14 by SunRiseWest
wings wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:49 pm Oh, if I ever went for one, I'd go ragtop all the way. They aren't practical cars. That's the point.

End of the day, I convinced myself years ago that the actual cost, environmental damage and physical risk of slinging a small sports car around back country roads for recreation were significantly higher than those associated with a responsible firearms hobby. So here I am.
Cars are very likely to be broken into in Los Angeles, and one problem with convertibles is that if you do the conventional thing-- just leave the doors open and leave nothing in your car-- that doesn't solve the problem of the rare times you need to have a firearm with a lock box locked in the vehicle (and secured with a cable.) Making matters worse: Apparently, concealing a firearm in a vehicle, even in a locked container, is illegal! So if concealment is part of a strategy on those rare occasions (for me, anyway) what I have to do: Leave the firearm locked in it's box in the trunk, and conceal it (and secure it with a cable) after I park. Very tricky, as you must do this without being observed. Which means I don't ever leave a firearm in my car in any location that I don't trust, but I think that would be my policy even if I had a hard top-- though no doubt, a hard top would add a little extra security.

"Environmental damage?" That kind of depends on which sports car you are talking about.

My CRX HF gets 50 MPG driven mostly on the highway, with a little stop-and-go traffic, including passing speeds up to 88 MPH. My former bass player swears that he got 55 MPG on a run out to Vegas, with the car fully loaded -- bass amp, drum kit + luggage, and the drummer, who was not a small man. The CRX is a good old boy and would love to go 85 all day long, but with about 180,000 on the odometer, I don't let him go over 90 more than once or twice a year. Top speed was 104 MPH when both me and the car were a lot younger and stupider.

The MX5 ND, when driven as a commuter car, can deliver about 37 MPH when driven conservatively under the same conditions. It is much more sensitive to driving style. I am convinced it could be hypermiled at 40 MPG, and on Miata.net, there are people who swear they've done it. 34 MPG is more typical, again with a little stop-and-go thrown in, and downshifting and flooring it to pass occasionally. Top speed is 132, I don't think I've ever had it over 90.

I did have one insane run in the MX5 NB, which rarely got more than 26 MPG, on the way to Sedona. Truckers were cruising at 90, and etiquette seemed to be: Cruise at 90, pass at 100, which is what I did. (And passed highway patrol, who did not stop any of us.) With the top down... at one point I realized, "This is crazy. I'm going to lose my hair, the skin is being pulled way back on my face, and I'm feel like I'm going deaf. What the hell was I thinking, or why wasn't I?" I pulled over and put the top up. I don't think I got 20 MPG on that trip.

As for safety, I would have to say that driving as a hobby anywhere in anything probably carries more risk than going to the range periodically-- particularly post pandemic. And there are very, very few ways to manage the risk.

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

15 by sig230
Perhaps the most amazing rag top I owned was my white 1967 Alfa Duetto boat tail spider. It had the 1750 engine but with twin Dellorto carbs and 10mm cams. Not sure what the top end was but I sometimes went over 100MPH with the 1972 Berlina which was a stock 1750 engine and injected. What was most impressive about the spider was that with the top down you could still hold a normal conversation even at 100mph. It was astounding and even the roll bar (I sometimes tried out as backmarker at a few tracks) only got noisy when I banged my helmet on it. The fastest track I drove was old Riverside in California but my favorite was Road Atlanta before it went upscale and filled in the gully just off the right edge as you crested the hill after the bridge and took the reverse camber run down to the 90 degree turn onto the start/finish leg.

It's funny, I was never really a threat in any race, more a variable and moving chicane, but even now, four decades or more since I was on any race track as anything but a spectator I can still hear and feel every turn, every brake point, ever change as I was pressed down in the seat or straining against the harness, braking, road changes, turns and the true fear on the long straight climb up to that bridge. Back then the bridge rose as a solid concrete and brick wall as you approached and even though I knew that it was well past the actual crest of the hill and had probably fifteen or twenty feet of clearance, it was something my brain and my sphincter debated each lap.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

17 by YankeeTarheel
wings wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:49 pm Oh, if I ever went for one, I'd go ragtop all the way. They aren't practical cars. That's the point.

End of the day, I convinced myself years ago that the actual cost, environmental damage and physical risk of slinging a small sports car around back country roads for recreation were significantly higher than those associated with a responsible firearms hobby. So here I am.
I just don't get that. When a clam shell is open there's no difference than when the rag-top is--and most modern rag-tops fold under so they are concealed just like clamshells, so you don't even have the folded-up top appearance. Yeah, if I could get a pristine 66/67 LeMans or GTO rag-top, I'd love it...but it's the open car, not the rags I love about it--I just think it's one of the most beautiful cars America ever made. Then, again, Pontiac's 1959 Catalina/Bonneville line (and Chevy's Impala that year) were also gorgeous (my brother found this--Mom had the Catalina version in that same Carolina Blue color--blue top, tooP:
59 Pontiac Bonneville Left Front.jpg
And this is what my 17 year old 6-speed clamshell looks like open, without the Euro "number plate"--same color. Every time I drive it I remember why I won't sell it!
2007BMW335i-inGold.JPG
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Hard-top Convertibles have disappeared!

18 by SunRiseWest
YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:31 am
wings wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:49 pm
Then, again, Pontiac's 1959 Catalina/Bonneville line (and Chevy's Impala that year) were also gorgeous (my brother found this--Mom had the Catalina version in that same Carolina Blue color--blue top, tooP:

59 Pontiac Bonneville Left Front.jpg

And this is what my 17 year old 6-speed clamshell looks like open, without the Euro "number plate"--same color. Every time I drive it I remember why I won't sell it!

2007BMW335i-inGold.JPG
Loved my '68 Catalina-- I did not have the convertible, but I did know someone who had a '68 with a soft top AND a stick! Mine was a family heirloom-- grandfather gave it to Dad who gave it to me. 4 barrel carb, 400cc engine-- I think they came with both smaller and larger blocks. It was a greased ice cube at 100 MPH, hit a dip in the road and you'd be in the other lane, the shoulder, or worse. With over 100 grand on the odo, it could still get 20 MPG when driven carefully.
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