CowboyT wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:11 am We don't need insults or condescension, man. I agree that it's all there, but it appears to me that you're less willing to address the actual root cause between then, when I was a kid and when Dad was a kid, vs. today. I maintain that the root cause is the parenting, or lack thereof, that's the actual root cause. Let's get to the actual root cause and address that.

And exactly how do we address parenting?

It is true that the root cause is parenting, parents who refuse to secure their firearm unless they're carrying it, messing with it, or can see directly where it's stashed. It's really hard to misuse a gun that's locked up. The logic there is unassailable.

Truly, truly I say unto you: I do not understand the reasoning behind your position. I see the position clearly. I cannot justify it.

CDFingers

I agree parenting plays a huge part, but so does social media (some gun forums hidden in political back rooms) where they allow racist talk and advocate killing politicians. And this has become more of a problem in the last several years, lets say 2016.

Utah is a permitless carry state, but it still issues Concealed Firearms Permits to in-state and out-of-state individuals. They require classroom training for the initial permit and for renewal everyone has to view a video on safe storage which is good.

AZ is the same, Constitutional Carry State, but our serious gun afficionados often spend the coin and take the class to get a Conceal Carry License.

highdesert, that was a very clean video. The Four Rules. Plenty of advice, options, and admonitions.

I believe even Republican gun humpers can understand "protect your investment" even if they don't care about people.

CDFingers

CDFingers wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:33 am highdesert, that was a very clean video. The Four Rules. Plenty of advice, options, and admonitions.

I believe even Republican gun humpers can understand "protect your investment" even if they don't care about people.

CDFingers

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CDFingers wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:33 am highdesert, that was a very clean video. The Four Rules. Plenty of advice, options, and admonitions.

I believe even Republican gun humpers can understand "protect your investment" even if they don't care about people.

CDFingers

My Utah LTC is up for renewal so I watched it and thought I'd share. I've taken plenty of gun classes with a lot of political types, but we all agreed on gun safety.

tonguengroover wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:12 pm

CowboyT wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:45 pm WHAT CHANGED?

What changed is more people have guns and the parents don't teach responsible gun use.
Violent movies - Hollywood
Violent gaming online
Gangs
Social programming where it is taught that it is OK to use deadly force to win an argument
Right Wing Radicalism enforced with Religious Groups

I'm good with locking up guns if you have youngsters. I did. But I also was allowed to have guns on my gunrack ever since I was 12 years old.

Other than the "right wing radicalism/religious groups" comment, I would say the above reasons by tonguengroover give a pretty good set of, "what's changed". And that's what I saw in our schools, too. I saw this just this last weekend with some kids basically running wild and the parents not reining in their little "darlings". There's no way my parents would've let me get away with the kind of behaviour that I'm seeing now.

The one other correction I might make to the above list is that, back in the day, more families as a percentage were gun-owning families vs. today. Today, you go to the coastal cities, which are predominately Democrat, you see revulsion against gun ownership. "Oh, I'd never own one of those killing things, that's disgusting!" Some decades ago, by contrast, that wasn't there nearly as much hatred against firearms, even in the 1970's San Francisco or LA. Thus, you had a higher percentage of parents teaching their kids proper gun safety. Mas Ayoob talks about his own upbringing in his book, "In the Gravest Extreme". The gun wasn't in some safe. It also wasn't the forbidden fruit, i. e. "if you want to learn about it, you come ask me, and you touch this only with permission and in my presence." Young Mas followed his father's instructions, and upon turning 18, Mr. Ayoob gifted Mas that very 1911 pistol, saying, "I hope to God you never have to use it. But if you ever do...don't miss."

That was the norm.

Far too many parents aren't teaching that anymore. Far too many parents are letting their kids raise themselves, with predicable results. Parents need to teach their kids these safety rules.

What scares me about these legislative proposals isn't a given parent's decision to lock or not lock up guns--that's got to be a parent's choice--but rather the *legal mandate* proposals that threaten to put a parent in jail for not doing so. You've got to know your kid, and that means paying attention to that kid, in order to decide whether to put their guns in safes, as one set of parts does (they have a mentally challenged child), or how both my Dad and Grandpa, and Mas Ayoob's father, didn't put their guns in safes.

CDFingers wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:33 am It is true that the root cause is parenting, parents who refuse to secure their firearm unless they're carrying it, messing with it, or can see directly where it's stashed. It's really hard to misuse a gun that's locked up. The logic there is unassailable.

Truly, truly I say unto you: I do not understand the reasoning behind your position. I see the position clearly. I cannot justify it.

CDFingers

I get that. Fortunately, this is America, and here, unlike some other places, we get to have these open conversations, even when we don't agree with each other. That, too, is part of our culture, the (hopefully respectful) free exchange of ideas.

The escaped bad guy in Penn stole a rifle that was leaning in a corner of a garage. Imagine what would have happened if that rifle was locked in a safe.

Don't be stupid: lock up your unsupervised guns.

Don't be stupid. Only Republicans are stupid in that way with respect to guns. Don't join that club.

CDFingers

Chester County, PA leans Democratic, so the stupid gun owner could have been from either party. A 22lr rifle with a scope, a rifle that survivalists would love to have.

During this time a suspected terrorist escaped from a UK prison by strapping himself to the underside of a food delivery truck. The prison was in London and he's already been caught. Reports are he was working for Iran, he was a former member of the UK Army.

Safe storage has everything to do with a healthy reasoning ability. Safely stored firearms keep them out of the hands of clever escaped criminals and children. That Republicans mostly commit this stupidity merely showcases strong statistical correlations. I would say a Dem carrying a pistol in his garage would be a rare situation. Perhaps we will see more info there.

CDFingers

Remember that most Dems and Dem supporters don't even own guns, because they're going along with the Party mass-stupidity that says GUNZ R EVIIILLL, so far fewer Dems are likely to even have a gun in the house in the first place. I know plenty of people here like to say Republicans are stupid, but that just isn't so. Like with me, they simply don't share your view on the subject regarding laws mandating guns being stored in safes. I've already stated my reasons for opposing such legal mandates. You've stated your reasons for supporting those mandates. OK, again, this is America, and we get to have those conversations here.

I would welcome a validated survey of Dems and Repubs to see who engages most often in safe storage.

I claim there is no legitimate reason to leave a gun unsupervised. Unless one is carrying it, working with it, or can see directly where it is stashed, a gun should be locked somehow. Stupidity is not a legit reason in my book.

Safe storage is not a "view." Safe storage is the first step. The law is second. Safe storage has nothing to do with laws and everything to do with adult responsibility.

It's not against the law to leave one's keys in an unlocked car. Do it and get back to me with your view on the issue.

CDFingers

In that case, the correct analogy to the car example is to keep your guns in a locked house, and since most people don't leave their houses unlocked, that should count as "locked storage". Therefore, if someone had broken into our locked house, i. e. broken through the door lock or broken the closed windows, etc., and stole my Dad's gun, you still would say he should've gone to jail for this?

Guns locked in safes are much more difficult to access than just breaking a window. I always advocate for guns to be locked up. The easy way to avoid having one's gun swiped through a broken window is to lock it in a safe. No one goes to jail from having a safe broken into. You're holding the stub-end of the stick here.

CDFingers

Anytime a lock or window is broken security has been breached and laws broken. The question that bothers me from CDFinger’s argument is how many locks and how many laws need to be broken before I’m not the responsible party and the criminal is. Even if it’s a child that has no business in your house and they break in, it is the individual doing the breaking in that is the criminal, not the victim. If it’s a minor perhaps instead of holding the gun owner responsible perhaps the responsibility should be with the parent that didn’t supervise their child that broke into a neighbor’s home. I fully support educating people on how to best secure their valuables, I just don’t agree with the tone that it has to be a “safe”. If crimes are committed the party doing the law breaking is responsible. I will always support training and education, I won’t support criminalizing victims.

That was really well put, sikacz.

CDFingers wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:22 pm I would welcome a validated survey of Dems and Repubs to see who engages most often in safe storage.

I claim there is no legitimate reason to leave a gun unsupervised. Unless one is carrying it, working with it, or can see directly where it is stashed, a gun should be locked somehow. Stupidity is not a legit reason in my book.

Safe storage is not a "view." Safe storage is the first step. The law is second. Safe storage has nothing to do with laws and everything to do with adult responsibility.

It's not against the law to leave one's keys in an unlocked car. Do it and get back to me with your view on the issue.

CDFingers

I agree CD. This is how all these guns get out on the street and in criminals hands. Someone has to be an adult. Adulting is hard ,some people can't do it.

tonguengroover wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:16 pm

CDFingers wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:22 pm I would welcome a validated survey of Dems and Repubs to see who engages most often in safe storage.

I claim there is no legitimate reason to leave a gun unsupervised. Unless one is carrying it, working with it, or can see directly where it is stashed, a gun should be locked somehow. Stupidity is not a legit reason in my book.

Safe storage is not a "view." Safe storage is the first step. The law is second. Safe storage has nothing to do with laws and everything to do with adult responsibility.

It's not against the law to leave one's keys in an unlocked car. Do it and get back to me with your view on the issue.

CDFingers

I agree CD. This is how all these guns get out on the street and in criminals hands. Someone has to be an adult. Adulting is hard ,some people can't do it.

I should have added "responsible" to adulting.

sikacz makes a point, but it is a weak one. I know gun owners in my town who don't want to submit to "authority". I would encourage folks to submit to the "authority" of adult responsibility.

Adulting is hard and requires awareness every single second. Guns are unique machines in that they can propel, for example, a 180 grain bullet a mile away which still carries enough energy to kill an unlucky random person. No other machine can do that. To me, such a feature requires special attention to ownership of that machine. We have read about penetration through walls, especially sheet rock walls, and a stray bullet can kill your neighbor who is just sitting on the couch watching her "stories." When we talk about safe storage and safe handling, we have to understand the capabilities of our machines.

We may "feel" secure inside our locked homes. That feeling will transfer to us as we go to the store for a bag of cat food. If we left our gun on the bedside table during this, some rat fink could break the window and steal the gun.

Let's examine "laws." Let's imagine a stolen gun is used in a crime. Let's imagine the bad guy gets caught and convicted. That's not the end of the story. Where did the gun come from? "I broke into that house and found the gun under the bed in the master bedroom." A fool allowed a dangerous machine to fall into the wrong hands. In California, that gun owner probably would go to jail. Now, what happens to that gun owner if the bad guy had to spend twenty minutes with a crow bar and two huge screwdrivers to get that safe open? Unlikely to go to jail. Moreover, most break-ins target valuables left lying about or frozen in ice cube trays or other common places. If the bad guy happens upon a gun safe, he can't go any further and will head to the kid's bedroom closet on the top shelf or whatnot to swipe Grandma's golden necklace.

In California the law exists and is publicized in an effort to "encourage" safe and secure storage. I'm OK with that restriction upon my ownership of these unique machines. Full disclosure: I have no stats on how many Californians have been prosecuted under this law. I know one of them won't be me. And I don't want any of them to be any of you. I totally favor all of you being in complete control of your guns. A secured gun is a controlled gun.
To me, that's gun control.

CDFingers

CDFingers wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:38 pm Safe storage has everything to do with a healthy reasoning ability. Safely stored firearms keep them out of the hands of clever escaped criminals and children. That Republicans mostly commit this stupidity merely showcases strong statistical correlations. I would say a Dem carrying a pistol in his garage would be a rare situation. Perhaps we will see more info there.

CDFingers

Really? I know MANY DEMs here that are armed from waking to sleeping, even in my garage.

BUT DEM or GQP, the gent was DUMB to leave a rifle against a wall in his garage...

'Healthy reasoning ability'...WAY too many legal gun owners lack that.

True, that. Up north here in California's Red Zone, Dems are rare, and gun owning Dems rarer. We're a small county, though, not really reflecting CA as a whole.

CDFingers

As posted before, I carry anywhere that accesses front yard - trash/recycle bins, mail, newspaper, open garage door, walking across street to give or receive something from neighbor or walking Jake. Night before last we had multiple shootings at main intersection of my street - no one hurt, but cops everywhere, no perps caught. I do leave spare mags for my EDC in garaged F150 door panel, but never leave pistol, During recent AC repairs my EDC was on me and bedside was in safe until mechanic gone. Not sure this thread applies to me as I'm not a Dem - left leaning moderate independent, so guess I'm exempt !! LOL