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I met a 12 y/o girl in Guatemala who was in charge of a younger sister in the kitchen and kept another baby sister on her hip as she tended an open wood-burning stove that was boiling a vat of hominy corn for making tortilla while their mother tended the fields because their father was away working in the States.

So age equals maturity? No. It’s all about the training and sense of personal responsibility. Americans have neither, which is why we got Jan 6th insurrectionists who now claim ignorance as their official defense. “Trump told us to...” And if he told you to jump off a cliff?
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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sikacz wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:06 pm The problem is society has to look at the totality and the whole collective.
The totality is that the vast, vast majority of young adults are not engaged in mass shooting or individual shootings. So, we are balancing our fear of mass shootings (because they are, in fact, exceedingly rare) on the backs of the vast majority of young adults that don't do such things. It's no different than banning assault weapons when the vast majority of owners use them responsibly. Again, I'm not saying we don't look at the evidence, but if we collectively agree that under 21 year olds are too rash to be trusted to use a tool, then adulthood and those rights associated should similarly be raised to 21. That's a heavy thing to justify. But that's the totality.

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Bisbee wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:20 pm I met a 12 y/o girl in Guatemala who was in charge of a younger sister in the kitchen and kept another baby sister on her hip as she tended to the wood-stove that was boiling a vat of hominy corn for making tortilla while their mother tended the fields because their father was away working in the States.

So age equals maturity? No. It’s all about the training and sense of personal responsibility. Americans have neither, which is why we got Jan 6th insurrectionists who now claim ignorance as their official defense. “Trump told us to...” And if he told you to jump off a cliff?
That is precisely my point, in other countries children become responsible adults way before they are physically adults. In our country we have physically adult children that are immature and incapable of living as adults. We don’t have a way to determine that individual y is an adult at 18, x at 21 and individual z might make it by 25 or who knows. Our children have been the privileges attained through our industrialization and created wealth. Unfortunately, it has also let them extend their adolescence.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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featureless wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:24 pm
sikacz wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:06 pm The problem is society has to look at the totality and the whole collective.
The totality is that the vast, vast majority of young adults are not engaged in mass shooting or individual shootings. So, we are balancing our fear of mass shootings (because they are, in fact, exceedingly rare) on the backs of the vast majority of young adults that don't do such things. It's no different than banning assault weapons when the vast majority of owners use them responsibly. Again, I'm not saying we don't look at the evidence, but if we collectively agree that under 21 year olds are too rash to be trusted to use a tool, then adulthood and those rights associated should similarly be raised to 21. That's a heavy thing to justify. But that's the totality.
Yes, the vast majority do not go shooting, but that doesn’t mean we do not have a problem with our young people. My wife met some of our youth when we still lived in Finland and she recalled they were not as emotionally developed as the same age groups she was familiar with. Moving here she was even more adamant that the youth here have a maturity problem. So yes, I don’t really think we need to rewrite the constitution and remove rights from young adults, but how do you get peoples attention to an issue that is real. We need to make sure our youth grow up and are as responsible as a rural 12 year girl in a remote village instead of 12 year old in adult bodies.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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Agree, sika. I don't know what the answer is. I know my daughter is 18 and I witness the very different social interactions of her generation. I know she's lonely. I recall being lonely at that age but I don't think the social media helps them there. It really starts to sink in that you're all the resources you have. Some have a difficult time with that. I also know kids struggle a lot with depression (she more than many). And, a lot of kids aren't taught responsibility. I think it has much to do with our collective affluence. My daughter has never gotten everything she's wanted. But she's never gone to bed hungry or gone to school without a jacket or had holes in her shoes. But, she got a job at 16 of her own accord. She's currently paying her own rent (didn't meet the grades for me to pay it; her first real contract, and yes, dad followed through on the failure to perform clause) and working hard at figuring out what life is. She is kind and she will pay a price for it. But she is stronger than she knows. She does give me hope yet great sadness at the world I am leaving her.

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Eris wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:48 pm Mr chomps is now gone. I started reading through this thread from the beginning and his first post in here was an obvious troll post.
hmmmm
Agree with djd100 below....I don't think he was trolling but came to the 'liberal' gun forum as a break from some of the right wing gun nutz on other forums...but..
I don't think it's right to can him because of his 'differing' views.

IMHO.
Last edited by F4FEver on Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr. Chomps' first couple of posts were quite reasonable, as common-sense gun control in addition to social-economic-wealth and opportunity restructuring of US society (good freakin' luck with that...), are all needed to help going forward, along with much stiffer mandatory penalties for those convicted of using firearms and/or the threat of deadly force in the commission of felonies.

He's correct in that the liberal knee-jerk reactions of the Dems are typically created by those with little or no actual firearms expertise?

To run Mr. Chomps out of here by declaring him an extremest troll is the same tactic that's used by the Nazis on the various right-wing gun sites.

This is supposedly the "Liberal Gun Club", i.e. it's open to intelligent debate etc, no?

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I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the absolutist orientation of forum administration - we've welcomed right-wing commentary as long as it conforms to the RKBA framework, but any time a new member raises questions about what constitutes reasonable regulation they get labeled trolls and banned?

I believe the old line involves honey versus vinegar.

We aren't going to gain members or change minds by running people off who don't immediately conform to the same point of view. I think it's a grave disservice to the mission. It effectively advertises, to anyone who reads the forum - and I dove deep before i ever signed up - that we don't care if you're a liberal who enjoys shooting. You have to oppose any regulation whatsoever or we will not listen to you, we'll label you a troll and ban you from the forum.

There are damn few of us posting about range trips or experiences with hardware anymore. Who has bought a new gun lately? Who has been testing out ammo? Who has range photos and gun porn anymore? Who is out there training new shooters?

You don't change minds about guns by gatekeeping and upholding ideological purity. Fuck that. You change minds by getting new shooters out on the range.

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They were not reasonable. They were simply parroting dem party talking points, ones which this forum does not support. We do not support bans, we do support enforcing existing laws and we support root cause mitigation to name a few. Reread those posts they were not reasonable and y’all should be honest with yourselves and the rest of us. I know some of you favor the same positions, because we clash over it often enough. Yes, we tolerate discourse if someone wants to truly engage and not just spout out propaganda. These last two were clearly not here for an honest discourse and y’all are just revealing your true intentions. This is a second amendment supporting group, saying we are somehow right wing for being such is dishonest.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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The reason I banned chomps was that his first post in the thread

1) changed the topic drastically, ignoring what people were talking about.
2) used all caps to scream at people
3) I took "Rabid 2A, Ammosexshul gun crowd is CREAMING in their jeans" as a comment directed to people on this forum, and thus an insult.

Chomps hit three strikes in his first post, and thus he was out.

I did *not* ban oscarsnappy76, though, because I thought he was being sincere, though inept, in trying to talk to people. However, I'm not the only admin here. I will bring this up with other mods, but ultimately this is a forum for LGC members first, and the general public second. We must remain responsive to the needs of our members above all else.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed

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sikacz wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:08 pm They were not reasonable. They were simply parroting dem party talking points, ones which this forum does not support. We do not support bans, we do support enforcing existing laws and we support root cause mitigation to name a few. Reread those posts they were not reasonable and y’all should be honest with yourselves and the rest of us. I know some of you favor the same positions, because we clash over it often enough. Yes, we tolerate discourse if someone wants to truly engage and not just spout out propaganda. These last two were clearly not here for an honest discourse and y’all are just revealing your true intentions. This is a second amendment supporting group, saying we are somehow right wing for being such is dishonest.
viewtopic.php?p=873328#p873328

Post #54 Did he get a PM?

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F4FEver wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:17 am
sikacz wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:08 pm They were not reasonable. They were simply parroting dem party talking points, ones which this forum does not support. We do not support bans, we do support enforcing existing laws and we support root cause mitigation to name a few. Reread those posts they were not reasonable and y’all should be honest with yourselves and the rest of us. I know some of you favor the same positions, because we clash over it often enough. Yes, we tolerate discourse if someone wants to truly engage and not just spout out propaganda. These last two were clearly not here for an honest discourse and y’all are just revealing your true intentions. This is a second amendment supporting group, saying we are somehow right wing for being such is dishonest.

viewtopic.php?p=873328#p873328

Post #54 Did he get a PM?
I certainly don’t agree with his perspective on this. However, axel has been on the forum off and on since 2011 and his his first posts on the forum were not inflammatory. He started off with an intro and has generally posted on his interests as well as his opinions. I doubt I will agree with some of his positions and that doesn’t matter. It’s a different story when the first thing someone does is a smelly rug.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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sikacz wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:33 am
F4FEver wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:17 am
sikacz wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:08 pm They were not reasonable. They were simply parroting dem party talking points, ones which this forum does not support. We do not support bans, we do support enforcing existing laws and we support root cause mitigation to name a few. Reread those posts they were not reasonable and y’all should be honest with yourselves and the rest of us. I know some of you favor the same positions, because we clash over it often enough. Yes, we tolerate discourse if someone wants to truly engage and not just spout out propaganda. These last two were clearly not here for an honest discourse and y’all are just revealing your true intentions. This is a second amendment supporting group, saying we are somehow right wing for being such is dishonest.

viewtopic.php?p=873328#p873328

Post #54 Did he get a PM?
I certainly don’t agree with his perspective on this. However, axel has been on the forum off and on since 2011 and his his first posts on the forum were not inflammatory. He started off with an intro and has generally posted on his interests as well as his opinions. I doubt I will agree with some of his positions and that doesn’t matter. It’s a different story when the first thing someone does is a smelly rug.
Chomps first posts weren't directed at anybody...a differing point of view, that 'some' threw stones at and then at him...The 'gun rug' IS smelly...like it or not.

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What was the motive of the shooter who killed three people at the Greenwood Park mall on Sunday? That’s the million-dollar question that police and federal law enforcement are trying to figure out. What may put them on the right path are possible posts made by the shooter on social media. Jonathan Sapirman, 20, of Greenwood is the man who opened fire on the shoppers at the Greenwood Park Mall food court. he got several rounds off before Eli Dicken, a person legally carrying a handgun, shot and killed Sapirman.

Police have come across screenshots of a post made the same day as the shooting on the website “4chan” that reads “my name is jonathan and today seems like a good day to die.” It’s captioned underneath a picture of a Nazi officer getting married. A black-and-white version of the photo of the wedding can be found online via a reverse Google Image search. A Russian website hosting the picture describes the photo as the wedding of a “Unterscharführer,” a rank in the Nazi SS. The SS bolts can be seen on the man’s uniform.

“We are aware of the photos you are referring to. The Greenwood Police Department and FBI are working diligently to identify the source. When our investigation is complete we will issue an update. There is no time frame on this update as the investigation is ongoing,” said Greenwood police chief James Ison to WISH-TV. Given the nature of the posts that could possibly be attributed to Sapirman and the three victims who were killed being Latino, some are wondering if this could be a hate crime. Police investigating Sapirman’s apartment found a laptop and a can of butane in the oven. His cellphone was left inside a toilet at the mall. The cellphone and laptop have been turned over to an FBI forensic team.
https://www.wibc.com/news/local-indiana ... -shooting/

The investigation is still the early stages. I assume the Marion County (Indianapolis) Prosecutor decides if Eli Dicken's shooting of Sapirman was justified.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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