Considering an AK

1
Surfacing for a moment or three to ask for some advice.

Given the circumstances of the current age, I'm considering buying an AK,

While I was considering a PSA rifle, I'm thinking that Zastava is probably a much better rifle for not that much more $$$.

The gotcha there is the choice between the Z PAP M70 in the classic 7.62x39 or the PAP M90 PS in 5.56. The ammo availability issues make me lean towards the M90 even though it's a couple hundred more, but I thought I'd enquire here at a place I have wee bit more trust in than most of the gun boards out there.

thoughts? suggestions?

Thanks!

William
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Considering an AK

3
wlewisiii wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:21 pm Surfacing for a moment or three to ask for some advice.

Given the circumstances of the current age, I'm considering buying an AK,

While I was considering a PSA rifle, I'm thinking that Zastava is probably a much better rifle for not that much more $$$.

The gotcha there is the choice between the Z PAP M70 in the classic 7.62x39 or the PAP M90 PS in 5.56. The ammo availability issues make me lean towards the M90 even though it's a couple hundred more, but I thought I'd enquire here at a place I have wee bit more trust in than most of the gun boards out there.

thoughts? suggestions?

Thanks!

William

With the M90 in 5.56 you need to find a good source for reliable magazines (and from what I understand that is a can of worms unto itself) . Might I suggest something along the lines of a non-AR /non-AK ? Maybe give a modern version of the Mini-14/Mini-30 a look. Factory mags are costly, however factory mags will work more reliably. Plus I'm pretty sure any used Ruger factory mags can be rebuilt with a spare follower or spare magazine spring. Outside of the Mini-14/Mini-30 route. The M-1 Carbine is still a decent rifle to have with a capable cartridge.

Re: Considering an AK

4
The Ruger, while an attractive little rifle, has a reputation, shall we say. A look around the shops I know on the net doesn't show any of the blue steel and wood rifles anywhere anyway. The ones with tacticrap on them I wouldn't consider since one big reason to get a Mini-14 is for the "don't scare the mundanes" vibe.

I had a carbine in the past and it was a good enough rifle but honestly the prices on them are too much for what they're worth.

For that matter there is the Kel Tek SU-16 series, but it seems to have all the worst aspects of the AR platform combined with the quirks of Kel Tek.

At this point, I'd rather stick with the best AK based rifle I can afford. I wish that were a Galil honestly, but that's not likely.
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Considering an AK

5
wlewisiii wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:51 pm The Ruger, while an attractive little rifle, has a reputation, shall we say. A look around the shops I know on the net doesn't show any of the blue steel and wood rifles anywhere anyway. The ones with tacticrap on them I wouldn't consider since one big reason to get a Mini-14 is for the "don't scare the mundanes" vibe.

I had a carbine in the past and it was a good enough rifle but honestly the prices on them are too much for what they're worth.

For that matter there is the Kel Tek SU-16 series, but it seems to have all the worst aspects of the AR platform combined with the quirks of Kel Tek.

At this point, I'd rather stick with the best AK based rifle I can afford. I wish that were a Galil honestly, but that's not likely.
Or the daddy of the Galil, Valmet RK 62!
https://www.weaponsystems.net/system/596-IMI+Galil
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Considering an AK

6
This thread caught my attention. I have a PSA AK. It's definitely not for AK aficionados from what I'm told. I've put a couple hundred rounds through mine and haven't had any problems. I enjoy shooting it. But, again, I've never been accused of having discriminating tastes.

I'm curious what others' experience has been with various AK's.

If memory serves, wlewisiii, you're somewhere in WI. I'm in SW WI, so message me if you're in that area at all. I'd meet up with you sometime so you could put some rounds down the PSA AK, field strip it, etc, to get a feel for it.

Side note on the Mini-14 / Mini-30. I have a Ruger American Ranch bolt action in 7.62x39 that uses Mini-30 magazines. The 5-round mags are great. My limited experience with the 10-round mags has been disappointing. Also, they are clunkier to use than AK mags. Don't know why Ruger: 1) didn't use standard AK mags for their x39 rifles, and 2) couldn't design good magazines if they weren't going to go standard.

Re: Considering an AK

11
Not that AK's are bad, of course, but if you might consider a CETME L, then would you also consider an AR? They are probably more available now than AK's are and take readily-available (and affordable) magazines. They're also good guns.

Ten years ago, when AK's were still relatively inexpensive and more available, I would've just said get a Russian AK and be done with it.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
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Re: Considering an AK

12
That's a reasonable question. Without going into boring detail, after 16 years in Army green, I'd never consider an AR platform rifle. I've seen too many break and jam and don't even get me started on the "Oh Shit" pin. It's a great target rifle for a spotless environment, nothing more - IME & all that. Others are more willing to trust one than I am.

Looking closer at the trouble the Spanish had with the CETME L, it would be a range toy and is not appropriate for anything more. Looks cool but they ditched it for the G-36 for good reason.

No, my feeling right now is that in a week I'll have the rest of the $$$ on payday. If the M90 is available I'll get it due to availability of ammo, the looming Russian ammo ban's impact on 7.62x39 and seeing on AK Operators Union, Local 47-74 that it's not as fussy about mags as some have made out, I consider it to essentially be the best of both worlds. Put an AK74 brake on it, a side rail w/ red dot, feed it cheap 5.56 and Bob's yer uncle.

Hope this helps it make more sense where I'm coming from.
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Considering an AK

13
wlewisiii wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:21 pm Surfacing for a moment or three to ask for some advice.

Given the circumstances of the current age, I'm considering buying an AK,

While I was considering a PSA rifle, I'm thinking that Zastava is probably a much better rifle for not that much more $$$.

The gotcha there is the choice between the Z PAP M70 in the classic 7.62x39 or the PAP M90 PS in 5.56. The ammo availability issues make me lean towards the M90 even though it's a couple hundred more, but I thought I'd enquire here at a place I have wee bit more trust in than most of the gun boards out there.

thoughts? suggestions?

Thanks!

William
PSA itself allegedly is tooling up to make 7.62x39, and they are not alone. So I don't think x39 is going to become as scarce as originally predicted. At this moment 5.56x45 is $0.47/rnd whereas x39 is $0.31/rnd.

Both the M70 and M90 are great shooters. With the latter I was ringing steel from 150yds with the factory zero. I may consider pressing in a 16" barrel later as an experiment.

The M70 has been flawless, and the only thing that would be a worthy replacement for it would be a Yugoslavian M70 kit build--maybe an M70B1 or M70AB2 that shoots equally well. Right now all I am finding for kits are milled. Might have to go that route.

PSA currently sells several different AK variants--from kit builds to their own PSAKs. PSAK owners are running into two significant problems that end users cannot correct: excessive bolt wear and FTEs preceded by a bizarre ejection pattern wherein one round may fly 15 feet up and to the right and the next may spill over the edge of the receiver and fall at the user's feet.

Supposedly, the Kalashnikov USA KR-103 is a better answer to the AK-103 and is more true to the original 103 design than the PSAK-103, which is more of an AKM hybrid. The KR-103 SFS was my second choice after the discontinued Arsenal SLR-107FR for my current project. I have checked out and fired a KR-103 and think it's worth investigating if you want a 103 clone.

Ultimately you will need to decide what series of AK-pattern rifle you would prefer--the Yugo M64/70/72/90 design, an AKM, or an AK-100 series.

Re: Considering an AK

14
If you are 40+, you will probably want optics, which are harder to put on an AK than a flat-topped AR. If an AK does not have a side-mount base, they are are very unfriendly to optics.

In the AK in 7.62, there are lots of cheap Com-Bloc surplus metal magazines available, which never wear out and are really hard to damage. The AR has magazines which do wear out, and are not hard to damage. If you go with anything but 7.62 or 5.45 in an AK, you are not going to find cheap, durable magazines.

On AR15.com, there are lots of threads on AR and AK durability. Several are concerning the experiences with maintenance of the firearms at Battlefield Vegas:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/High_ ... 35/&page=1
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ak-47/AK_ab ... 06/?page=1

Re: Considering an AK

15
I've run AKs in 556 & 7.62x39 (and a vz58 in 7.62x39) n our local shoot and move rifle match* for a couple years.The biggest differences the calibers make is in recoil and trajectory.

For serious work (as opposed to shooting paper & steel) my choice would be for 556 even though mags are harder to find & more expensive.

7.62x39 just isn't a great cartridge. The ballistics are like a rainbow and there isn't a great distance to zero at. 7.62x39 zeroed at 200 yards (where I zero pretty much all my rifles) puts you ~4" high at 100, which is enough to sail the bullet over a smallish target. Over 200 yards 7.62x39 drops off rapidly. Follow up shots are slower also with 7.62x39 because of the recoil.

On AKs in general, expect accuracy in the 3-4MOA range. Between several Arsenal rifles and a Galil ACE in 556 and 7.62x39 they all are ball park in at around 3-4MOA. If you're happy with that fine, if not start with a different platform.

Another option for a AK in 556 that as great ergonomics and takes STANAG mags would be the Tavor. It's a reasonable weight, has great ergonomics (better than an AR in my opinion), is a short as an SBR w/o losing ballistics from a short barrel, and is reasonably accurate (~2MOA). It may not look like an AK but the guts are very distinctly an AK derivation. Not cheap but neither will be a 556 AK and a decent supply of good mags. All this in a rifle that is field strips to fewer parts than an AK, is completely convertible for LH use, and has a picatinny top rail.

About the CETME L, I have one as it was a decently priced way to scratch the roller delayed blowback itch w/o dropping $4k on a HK. Mine is reasonably accurate (~2MOA) but the ergonomics and weight would make me agree that it's not a rifle for serious work.

BSW

*Shoot a mix of paper and steel targets from 2 to ~300 yards from various firing positions, frequently with movement & reloads required.

Re: Considering an AK

16
Lots of good info here today, thank you folks.

Regarding accuracy. Years ago, I realized that my desires in accuracy were exemplified by the basic 9" paper plate. It covers the kill zone on a White-Tailed Deer (and certain other mammals...) perfectly and that all that was necessary was to be able to put a round into that area. 3 MOA = 9" at 300 yards. I'm not interested in playing sniper so that's more than sufficient to my needs.

Still depends on what is available when the money is all in the bank, but I still think the M90 is in the lead followed by the M70. I've owned other Zastava firearms in the past so that's a plus for them and while KA's KR-103 looks interesting on a number of levels, it appears to be out of stock everywhere I've looked (though not looking that hard since I like Zastava ;) )

William
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Considering an AK

17
As I've noted elsewhere on this forum, I really love my WASR. Plenty accurate out to a few hundred yards, siderail for optics, eats anything you put in the magazine. I do feel like personally I'd grab that rifle over my AR should the need arise. Only thing would be ammo availability is probably a little better with the 5.56, but I doubt my AR doubles as easily as a boat oar or a shovel.
I have owned a KelTec SU16 and it was fine. The polymer frame kind of made me nervous, but mine ran just fine and was very accurate. I liked that it took standard 5.56 mags too. I eventually sold it and bought a Springfield Saint Victor in 5.56, which is a very nice rifle. But, as they say, AK rifle is fine.
My .02
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Minute Of Average

Re: Considering an AK

18
wlewisiii wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:34 pmI've owned other Zastava firearms in the past so that's a plus for them and while KA's KR-103 looks interesting on a number of levels, it appears to be out of stock everywhere I've looked (though not looking that hard since I like Zastava ;) )

William
https://kalashnikov-usa.com/product/kr- ... e-folding/
The KR-103SFS is an AK-103 clone--probably the most true to the marque in production here or abroad outside of Kalashnikov Concern now that Kalashnikov USA is including a CHF barrel. Those who missed out on SGL21 back when they were available cannot do better than a KR-103SFS.

Having been derived from the AK-74M, both are very different from the Zastavas, which are more similar in appearance to AKMs despite being unique among AKs. With a decent muzzle brake either an M70 or an M90 will shoot very flat. It helps that they're heavy. My M90 still has the hideous Magpul Zhukov stock, which is handy and has worked flawlessly.

Re: Considering an AK

19
Well, I've made up my mind. On Friday I'm going to order:
Zastava ZPAP M70
M70 scope mount (I have an AT3 RD-50 Red Dot to use on it)
AK74 style muzzle break
5 Bulgarian steel mags

The following payday I'll get:
Zhukov-S folding stock
6 poly BHO mags from Zastava
Cheese grater upper hand guard from Zastava
and a half case of 7.62x39 to break it in.

Thanks for the thoughts and info folks. I'll post pics once I'm set up.

William
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Considering an AK

21
wlewisiii wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:53 pm Well, I've made up my mind. On Friday I'm going to order:
Zastava ZPAP M70
M70 scope mount (I have an AT3 RD-50 Red Dot to use on it)
AK74 style muzzle break
5 Bulgarian steel mags

The following payday I'll get:
Zhukov-S folding stock
6 poly BHO mags from Zastava
Cheese grater upper hand guard from Zastava
and a half case of 7.62x39 to break it in.

Thanks for the thoughts and info folks. I'll post pics once I'm set up.

William
For the same money, you could get the Khyber Customs grater with slightly larger and fewer holes. Zastava's grater has two holes omitted on top at the rear to accommodate the Zastava logo. Otherwise, it would have 66 holes. The 60-hole Khyber Customs grater is slightly thinner, per my gauge, and is lighter. Zastava's grater has less flaring around the holes.

Zastava 64-hole:
https://zastavaarmsusa.com/product/zast ... handguard/
Khyber 60-hole:
https://khybercustoms.com/yugo-zpap-len ... handguard/

Re: Considering an AK

22
wlewisiii wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:53 pm Well, I've made up my mind. On Friday I'm going to order:
Zastava ZPAP M70
M70 scope mount (I have an AT3 RD-50 Red Dot to use on it)
AK74 style muzzle break
5 Bulgarian steel mags

The following payday I'll get:
Zhukov-S folding stock
6 poly BHO mags from Zastava
Cheese grater upper hand guard from Zastava
and a half case of 7.62x39 to break it in.

Thanks for the thoughts and info folks. I'll post pics once I'm set up.

William
So I just sold a ZPAP with a Zhukov folding stock, so I'll tell you the plus and minuses of each.

The Serbs make a good AK in general; more than adequate for anything you're likely to need it for. Accuracy is sufficient for anything you'd use an AK for, and they are quite reliable. Magazine interface is good, and mine worked well with a wide variety of magazines. Unfortunately their buttstock interface means finding aftermarket stocks....well, the pickin's kinda thin.

Mine had the Zhuknv folder which is both good and bad. I'll start with the bad... The hinge isn't very robust, and a hard hit will break it. Even something as simple as the "mortar maneuver" (used to clear a stuck case) has been known to break the hinge. Now the good. It is very adjustable, very comfortable, and it folds nice and flat. You can use the rifle when folded, and it's super quick and easy to deploy the stock. This stock would work well on a special purpose weapon that you needed to hide in a covert bag or something. But you'll never see these used by soldiers in a real war...or at least, they won't use them for long. So for most things, I would recommend the wood stock.

With all the nice Serb AK's coming into the country, there's sure to be some better stock options out there by now...or just around the corner.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Considering an AK

23
DispositionMatrix wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:44 am
wlewisiii wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:53 pm Well, I've made up my mind. On Friday I'm going to order:
Zastava ZPAP M70
M70 scope mount (I have an AT3 RD-50 Red Dot to use on it)
AK74 style muzzle break
5 Bulgarian steel mags

The following payday I'll get:
Zhukov-S folding stock
6 poly BHO mags from Zastava
Cheese grater upper hand guard from Zastava
and a half case of 7.62x39 to break it in.

Thanks for the thoughts and info folks. I'll post pics once I'm set up.

William
For the same money, you could get the Khyber Customs grater with slightly larger and fewer holes. Zastava's grater has two holes omitted on top at the rear to accommodate the Zastava logo. Otherwise, it would have 66 holes. The 60-hole Khyber Customs grater is slightly thinner, per my gauge, and is lighter. Zastava's grater has less flaring around the holes.

Zastava 64-hole:
https://zastavaarmsusa.com/product/zast ... handguard/
Khyber 60-hole:
https://khybercustoms.com/yugo-zpap-len ... handguard/
Sorry, but those are shit handguards. They have become "fashion" because the AK Operators Union guy on Youtube likes them. But they are shit. They're non-shielded and they're steel. So when you heat that rifle up, it's not much protection for your hand. Of course, some don't care about heat shielding for the top handguard...that's up to you. They remind me of the POS M1 Carbine handguards the commercial M1's used to wear back in the '70's and '80's.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Considering an AK

24
I can see what you're saying about the handguard, though honestly, I do like the idea that it allows a bit more cooling, and I like the looks on it. I'll think about it.

Regarding the stock, have you used the fixed adjustable stock on the current M70? The one I'm looking at comes with that one. If I want a folder (mostly because of storage and transportation), is there any of them that is decent? The triangle ones?

Thanks!
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Considering an AK

25
FrontSight wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:15 pm
wlewisiii wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:53 pm Well, I've made up my mind. On Friday I'm going to order:
Zastava ZPAP M70
M70 scope mount (I have an AT3 RD-50 Red Dot to use on it)
AK74 style muzzle break
5 Bulgarian steel mags

The following payday I'll get:
Zhukov-S folding stock
6 poly BHO mags from Zastava
Cheese grater upper hand guard from Zastava
and a half case of 7.62x39 to break it in.

Thanks for the thoughts and info folks. I'll post pics once I'm set up.

William
So I just sold a ZPAP with a Zhukov folding stock, so I'll tell you the plus and minuses of each.

The Serbs make a good AK in general; more than adequate for anything you're likely to need it for. Accuracy is sufficient for anything you'd use an AK for, and they are quite reliable. Magazine interface is good, and mine worked well with a wide variety of magazines. Unfortunately their buttstock interface means finding aftermarket stocks....well, the pickin's kinda thin.

Mine had the Zhuknv folder which is both good and bad. I'll start with the bad... The hinge isn't very robust, and a hard hit will break it. Even something as simple as the "mortar maneuver" (used to clear a stuck case) has been known to break the hinge. Now the good. It is very adjustable, very comfortable, and it folds nice and flat. You can use the rifle when folded, and it's super quick and easy to deploy the stock. This stock would work well on a special purpose weapon that you needed to hide in a covert bag or something. But you'll never see these used by soldiers in a real war...or at least, they won't use them for long. So for most things, I would recommend the wood stock.

With all the nice Serb AK's coming into the country, there's sure to be some better stock options out there by now...or just around the corner.
Why would you mortar an AK? You've got a perfectly good charging handle that's part of the bolt carrier right there. It isn't an AR and doesn't have the same weaknesses was an AR.

BSW

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