Police shoot 61 year old white male armed with a knife while confined to a motorized wheel chair, 8 times in the back and sides, with the ninth to the head, all for shoplifting a tool box and threatening the store security guy with a knife (while confined to the wheelchair etc, so not a lot of threat there unless the guy attempted to get up out of the wheel chair which he never did).
https://tucson.com/news/local/watch-now ... in-article
https://www.newsweek.com/tucson-police- ... ir-1654733
TPD has fired the shooter, and it sounds like murder charges are next to me...
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
2I guess deescalation wasn’t an option. Professionals can be trusted with lethal force when the rest of us can’t seems like a shaky argument.
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
3I dunno, too soon to judge. The guy did not follow the officers commands and was headed towards an employee from what I heard.
Just because he is in a store owned motorized shopping cart does n ot mean he is totally handicapped.
Just because he is in a store owned motorized shopping cart does n ot mean he is totally handicapped.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
4Knife kills you just as dead as a gun. When the knife came out, shoplifting stopped being the problem.
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
5I will want to see the body cam footage. I have a hard time believing shooting was the ONLY viable option available to them. Sure there could be a situation where shooting was called for, but I will be a skeptic until proven otherwise.
Give me pepper spray, a night stick an just a couple feet of room and I will win that fight 100% of the time. Blind him with the spray, use your feet to keep his wheelchair at bay, and the stick to knock away the knife, or make body strikes. Was a taser used? How many officers were on scene. If the number is greater than one, my belief in a justified shooting just went down by about 300%.
I want answers.
Give me pepper spray, a night stick an just a couple feet of room and I will win that fight 100% of the time. Blind him with the spray, use your feet to keep his wheelchair at bay, and the stick to knock away the knife, or make body strikes. Was a taser used? How many officers were on scene. If the number is greater than one, my belief in a justified shooting just went down by about 300%.
I want answers.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
6Same, video. A person in a wheelchair is not the same threat as a fully mobile person. It's why we have ADA accessibility standards. Not to put too fine a point, but nine shots and the last to the head. Show me the video that all that was necessary to stop an attack if there was one. It all sounds a bit fishy.FrontSight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:00 am I will want to see the body cam footage. I have a hard time believing shooting was the ONLY viable option available to them. Sure there could be a situation where shooting was called for, but I will be a skeptic until proven otherwise.
Give me pepper spray, a night stick an just a couple feet of room and I will win that fight 100% of the time. Blind him with the spray, use your feet to keep his wheelchair at bay, and the stick to knock away the knife, or make body strikes. Was a taser used? How many officers were on scene. If the number is greater than one, my belief in a justified shooting just went down by about 300%.
I want answers.
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
7Okay, just watched the video... ARREST THAT COP!!! That was straight up murder by gross incompetence.
Video report says the cop in question has been fired, and the DA is considering prosecution...which is the right course of action.
https://youtu.be/6sHRMERov0E
Video report says the cop in question has been fired, and the DA is considering prosecution...which is the right course of action.
https://youtu.be/6sHRMERov0E
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
8Definitely need to ask the officer why he didn't think of, or didn't attempt to, disable the wheelchair? It's obvious they guy wouldn't be ambulatory on his own. Lots of options, he chose the gun way too soon. Also, shot him 9 times? In this instance, that's excessive.
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
9Looks like Robinson and others could have used tasers, can't see 9 rounds of lethal force being required. Now it's up to the DA, is she up for reelection? She'll be looking at state law and the likelihood she can get a conviction.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
10I don't see a situation that would even make me think of my gun. Surround him, tackle him, and disarm him. There were 4 officers on scene. You trying to tell me 4 fully ambulatory officers can't handle a senior citizen in a wheelchair? For fuck's sake!!!
Watch the news in the future... You're going to find out that cop has been problematic and the department probably knew he was a problem officer. You don't just wake up and randomly do something that crazy. I expect we'll find out he has a good bit of history.
Watch the news in the future... You're going to find out that cop has been problematic and the department probably knew he was a problem officer. You don't just wake up and randomly do something that crazy. I expect we'll find out he has a good bit of history.
Last edited by FrontSight on Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
11Couldn’t tell much except that person wasn’t a credible threat. Was he going back into the store? I had the sound off, but his actions didn’t seem threatening. Was there a knife? Talk about disgusting excessive use of force and there was more than two officers. Shit.FrontSight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:52 am Okay, just watched the video... ARREST THAT COP!!! That was straight up murder by gross incompetence.
Video report says the cop in question has been fired, and the DA is considering prosecution...which is the right course of action.
https://youtu.be/6sHRMERov0E
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
12Exactly. Don’t officers carry batons anymore. Distract and hit his wheelchair in the vitals. Not going anywhere without current. Should have done anything but shoot him. All four failed. All four should face charges.FrontSight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:14 am I don't see a situation that would even make me think of my gun. Surround him, tackle him, and disarm him. There were 4 officers on scene. You trying to tell me 4 fully ambulatory officers can't handle a senior citizen in a wheelchair? For fuck's sake!!!
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
13Based on the video, this cop shot into the store! Lucky he didn't kill anyone else. I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility that the old man could have been using the chair for convenience rather than absolute necessity, but even then, does an old man with a knife really pose a direct threat to shoppers when there are cops right there with him? I kind of doubt that he was going to ditch the chair and turn into some sort of superhuman ninja. That chair was moving slow, so surely the cops could have got around him and cleared the store. Hopefully this fuckhead does serious time.
Crow
Crow
Minute Of Average
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
14When I was a Paramedic, I'll bet I disarmed a wheelchair bound senior citizen on average of once or twice a year. Never was myself or anyone of my crew armed, and it was always easily done. Never have I been cut, or stabbed, nor any of my crew. I have done it multiple times all by myself. Just kick the wheelchair over, and it's pretty easy from there.
That was a VERY easy situation to handle if the option of murder never comes to mind.
That was a VERY easy situation to handle if the option of murder never comes to mind.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
15BTW that isn't a store owned powered shopping cart. That is a standard powered wheelchair that can easily be made immobile.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
16Watch the videos attached to the articles!
The deceased geezer appeared to be holding a pack of smokes and a phone when shot in the back and sides/head. I didn't see the knife which had been displayed earlier to a store security guard, and the shooter fired across the store entrance not into it with what appeared to be bags of fertilizers or something as a backstop.
The only thing at play is the use of deadly force, which IMO in this situation was in no way warranted.
I'm as pro-blue as I can be, but when they're wrong, they're wrong, and in this case as in many others someone died needlessly (a crippled old man in a wheel chair with a pocket knife, without firearms, explosives, or bio-weapons etc, just doesn't seem that dangerous to me?
Sure, the shooter wanted to keep him from going into the store which was prudent, but OC or Taser could've been used IMO (NOT 9 shots)!
The deceased geezer appeared to be holding a pack of smokes and a phone when shot in the back and sides/head. I didn't see the knife which had been displayed earlier to a store security guard, and the shooter fired across the store entrance not into it with what appeared to be bags of fertilizers or something as a backstop.
The only thing at play is the use of deadly force, which IMO in this situation was in no way warranted.
I'm as pro-blue as I can be, but when they're wrong, they're wrong, and in this case as in many others someone died needlessly (a crippled old man in a wheel chair with a pocket knife, without firearms, explosives, or bio-weapons etc, just doesn't seem that dangerous to me?
Sure, the shooter wanted to keep him from going into the store which was prudent, but OC or Taser could've been used IMO (NOT 9 shots)!
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
17Realized that but still lots of people can lunge out off a wheelchair and stab you.TrueTexan wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:27 pm BTW that isn't a store owned powered shopping cart. That is a standard powered wheelchair that can easily be made immobile.
And the guy was an ex con with a long rap sheet. He wasn't just a poor ole decrepit old man. He knew better.
Also the Leo sad he didn't have time and or distance and more stopped him from using his taser or spray.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
18Respectfully, I disagree.
That was piss poor police work plain and simple. That's why the cop has been fired and will likely face a murder charge. There was absolutely nothing that was reasonable about his decision to kill.
That was piss poor police work plain and simple. That's why the cop has been fired and will likely face a murder charge. There was absolutely nothing that was reasonable about his decision to kill.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
19Shooting nine times is the crux of this for me. If he had shot once he might have been able to justify that as a legitimate attempt to stop the guy by injuring him or disabling the wheelchair, but no. He just opened up and shot eight times rapidly, then a slight delay, and then a ninth shot (and I wonder if the ninth was the head shot). He was intentionally shooting to kill.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
20That part is at least consistent with LE training.Eris wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:58 pm Shooting nine times is the crux of this for me. If he had shot once he might have been able to justify that as a legitimate attempt to stop the guy by injuring him or disabling the wheelchair, but no. He just opened up and shot eight times rapidly, then a slight delay, and then a ninth shot (and I wonder if the ninth was the head shot). He was intentionally shooting to kill.
Cops are trained to stop. As in, you shoot until they have completely stopped, and are on the ground. The wheelchair was still rolling, so he continued shooting. That part was done as per training.
Watch any officer involved shooting in the past 5-10 years, and you'll see no one gets shot once anymore... They shoot all the way to the the ground. (BTW - I'm not endorsing this practice, just saying that's current training doctrine for most LE agencies across the nation).
This was a cop who really wanted to use his gun, and he murdered someone.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
21Yeah, I figured. Heck, even around here we say you shoot until the threat is stopped.FrontSight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:19 pm That part is at least consistent with LE training.
Cops are trained to stop. As in, you shoot until they have completely stopped, and are on the ground. The wheelchair was still rolling, so he continued shooting. That part was done as per training.
Watch any officer involved shooting in the past 5-10 years, and you'll see no one gets shot once anymore... They shoot all the way to the the ground. (BTW - I'm not endorsing this practice, just saying that's current training doctrine for most LE agencies across the nation).
This was a cop who really wanted to use his gun, and he murdered someone.
But there was no threat. The guy was a) in a wheelchair, b) had his back to the cops, c) did not obviously have any weapon in hand, and d) was not near any bystanders.
No threat means the cop really shouldn't have fired even once.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
22^^^THIS!^^^Eris wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:24 pmYeah, I figured. Heck, even around here we say you shoot until the threat is stopped.FrontSight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:19 pm That part is at least consistent with LE training.
Cops are trained to stop. As in, you shoot until they have completely stopped, and are on the ground. The wheelchair was still rolling, so he continued shooting. That part was done as per training.
Watch any officer involved shooting in the past 5-10 years, and you'll see no one gets shot once anymore... They shoot all the way to the the ground. (BTW - I'm not endorsing this practice, just saying that's current training doctrine for most LE agencies across the nation).
This was a cop who really wanted to use his gun, and he murdered someone.
But there was no threat. The guy was a) in a wheelchair, b) had his back to the cops, c) did not obviously have any weapon in hand, and d) was not near any bystanders.
No threat means the cop really shouldn't have fired even once.
...plus, the shooter could've easily deployed OC, as he had ample opportunity to prior to the guy nearing the doorway, and he could have done so without getting directly in front of the guy's wheelchair in case the victim was faking.
Sure, you do shoot until the threat stops, but this victim was not posing a threat at the time of the shooting, so a dose of non-lethal should've been used first (OC IMO, as a Taser might have had problems with someone sitting with his back covered and wearing baggy cloths).
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
23Yeah yeah, the armchair pundits said the same thing about Rittenhouse but turned out he was in fear of his life. I don't like it but it is what it is.
We will see I guess when all the evidence is submitted.
We will see I guess when all the evidence is submitted.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
24Well while people in wheelchairs and Rascals can be dangerous when watching the footage previous to the shooting the cop was walking around the parking lot with the suspect. The cop walked very close several times and seemingly had no concerns the guy was suddenly going to attack him.tonguengroover wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:08 pm Yeah yeah, the armchair pundits said the same thing about Rittenhouse but turned out he was in fear of his life. I don't like it but it is what it is.
We will see I guess when all the evidence is submitted.
Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair
25Ok who wants run around in front of the poor old decrepit guy who just came from walmart, assaulted a store guard with a deadly weapon who may also have a gun , raise your hand!
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”