Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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F4FEver wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:32 am

Until battery technology advances a LOT, along with the ability to either charge quickly or swap a battery, e-cars will be a fringe. A Nissan Leaf or BMW e-whatever has an about 100 mile real world range. Less in cold weather.

OR is 'energy', fuel, gets scarce(not expensive but scarce) and then, we'll have far other, more serious problems..
I was looking yesterday (not looking hard) at the Chevy Bolt. It has an EPA stated range of over 250 miles. The thing is that I still want to be able to pull my travel trailer. With that consideration, it is close to impossible to justify a second car, based on numbers alone. Currently, I plan to keep my gas guzzler and commute on my bicycle.

One thing I find fascinating was the popularity of electric cars in the early 1900s'. Many of the delivery trucks had swappable batteries, keeping them on the road for an entire shift. To point out the obvious, Henry Ford's wife insisted on driving n electric car, a 1914 Detroit Electric.
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Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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lurker wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:42 am
F4FEver wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:32 am Until battery technology advances a LOT, along with the ability to either charge quickly or swap a battery, e-cars will be a fringe.
this. it's 40 miles to my range and 40 miles back. don't get me wrong, i like the idea of e-cars. for around town. not for road trips.
I'll future consider Uber/Lyte for the few errands I now run. Already working with close neighbors to pick up most meds for each other and occasional grocery items. Put about 1500 miles on F150 last year - near all medical related. Insurance on single vehicle cost $900+ year about $13 less than for two vehicles (1987 Blazer given to SIL), maintenance on the old POS (1998) is climbing and expect known repairs will be in area of $1500 this year. The ROI for a E car just ain't there, even though my road trip days are over. Tank of gas last about 4 months - hell my mowers use more these days.

My range is a 75 mile round trip - which is irrelevant since I haven't been there since 2019.

Regardless of my own situation, E cars are not the answer now or in the future - again, nothing more than a stop gap. Setting up infrastructure for them will be about as productive as Afghanistan, Vietnam wars and drug war. Many will get rich off them - most citizens will see zilch benefit. Super batteries, solar panels or extension cords 200 miles long are pie in the sky dreams. Imbedded wireless chargers in roadways and on all the 4WD roads in forest and Big Bend only answer !! :sarcasm: on last sentence.
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Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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As it stands right now, a Tesla could be one of the best choices for a 2nd car...or for a first car if you live in a highly urbanized area, and don't make a lot of long trips (over 200mi). The performance is only going to get better. When it comes time to replace my wife's car, we're looking at Tesla's. Zero maintenance, and if you setup a dedicated solar charging station, you mostly drive for free (fuel wise).
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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sikacz wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:33 am
lurker wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:42 am
F4FEver wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:32 am Until battery technology advances a LOT, along with the ability to either charge quickly or swap a battery, e-cars will be a fringe.
this. it's 40 miles to my range and 40 miles back. don't get me wrong, i like the idea of e-cars. for around town. not for road trips.
Both of these! Won’t happen in my lifetime. I’ve probably bought the last vehicles I’ll ever own. Hope some ass doesn’t make a law that punishes me for owning them.
My 2019 Bolt will do 200 miles with AC or heat on the freeway at 65 (not below 40 degrees, have no experience there). It does even better on highways at 55. At a quick charger, I can get 80% recharge in under 30 minutes. New EVs do even better. Tesla is rumored to be planning to open its supercharger network to all. If that happens, I can easily road trip in the Bolt.

My earlier Leaf got 80 miles of range under perfect comditions. It was a tight commute in the winter!

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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We need to reduce the greenhouse gases as quickly as possible. One of the big gases we need to stop leaking is methane.
Methane is a powerful greenhouses gas with a 100-year global warming potential 28-34 times that of CO2. Measured over a 20-year period, that ratio grows to 84-86 times
https://unece.org/challenge

The oil companies leak massive amount of methane each day, both from the drilling and pipelines. You see the flaring of methane in much of the drilling in Texas alone. They just considerate a part of drilling for oil. They need to be regulated to prevent the discharge of methane. It can be used in the production of electricity as burned become CO2, But CO2 can be carbon captured. Using methane we could rid ourselves of the coal fired plants thus reducing their pollution.

I would really like to see the electricity be generating with renewable Green Energy rather than ether of the other two.

As for the current electric cars what is the time it takes to fully charge one? Also charging at a public charging station how much does it cost?

I know my Hybrid RAV4 takes about 10 minutes or less to fill the gas tank and give me a range of about 500 miles on a trip around town and driving using the batteries more with the regenerative braking etc. I can get about 550 miles if I run the tank to the light says low fuel.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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TrueTexan wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:59 am As for the current electric cars what is the time it takes to fully charge one? Also charging at a public charging station how much does it cost?

I know my Hybrid RAV4 takes about 10 minutes or less to fill the gas tank and give me a range of about 500 miles on a trip around town and driving using the batteries more with the reiterative braking etc. I can get about 550 miles if I run the tank to the light says low fuel.
Hybrids are fantastic and there's little reason to trade in for an EV unless you're looking for a new car or are a wingnut like me.

Full charge on a home 220 is around 6 to 8 hours. It's the same on public Level II chargers (I'm currently limping by on 110 charging at home that takes about 2 days!, Need to get 220 to the garage). Cost is almost always less than the same miles on gas (but all stations set their own rates, just like gas). Level III chargers are usually more but only necessary for 1% of driving if you're on a road trip. Most of those will give you 80% in 30 minutes.

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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Holding industry accountable should be critical. Frankly I don’t see why industry and energy production or electric is treated separately. Unless one wants to push car emissions. Sure it’s important to reduce vehicle emissions, but the corporate emission is near double that of vehicles if we combine both under the same banner.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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There are very good reasons emissions standards are industry specific. There are also some not very good reasons, but they don't offset the good ones. Personally I think lumping everyone in the same bucket will hurt more than it will help. Each industry has its own very specific challenges.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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CA government has money to burn, another technology they're pushing is hydrogen fuel.
Soon after Maribel Munoz joined the trailblazing ranks of American owners of hydrogen cars — a group that exists only in California — she began to fear that the low price of the taxpayer-subsidized Toyota Mirai she purchased came with a tremendous cost.

“You can’t have a job and own this car,” said the 49-year-old clothing designer from Azusa. “Finding fuel for it becomes your job. It is constant anxiety. I told the guy at Toyota, ‘If I have a stroke, it’s on you.’”

Munoz found herself stranded with an empty tank on the highway and stressed out by the repeated fuel shortages Mirai drivers call “hydropocalypses.” She struggled not to scream at her phone after driving miles to stations that a hydrogen fueling app said were working just fine, only to find them out of order.

These are the kind of hassles that can come with being an early adopter. But in the case of California’s “Hydrogen Highway” — a network of fueling stations former Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger dreamed would lure masses of Americans to hydrogen vehicles — even the most climate-conscious, tech-savvy motorists are asking: What’s the point? The Hydrogen Highway was meant to stretch from coast to coast. But after 17 years, it has yet to make it past the state line.

Environmentalists warn that the futuristic hydrogen fuel cell cars, marketed as producing zero emissions, leave an inexcusably heavy carbon footprint. The few automakers that have not backed away from the concept of powering a passenger car by splitting off electrons from hydrogen ions are struggling to persuade drivers that the vehicles are a reliable alternative to zero-emission battery-powered ones. And other states that typically look to California for climate-friendly transportation inspiration are taking a pass.

You can’t have a job and own this car. Finding fuel for it becomes your job.

Maribel Munoz, on her hydrogen-fueled car
“It started as kind of a bad bet by the state,” said Ethan Elkind, director of the climate program at UC Berkeley’s Center for Law, Energy and the Environment. “Now it has become a legacy zombie technology.”

California can’t let go of Schwarzenegger’s vision. In 2004, he famously got behind the wheel of a clunky Hummer prototype that ran on hydrogen to signal that drivers can have it all: the excess and convenience of a gas guzzler, with none of the emissions. (It turned out that the hydrogen Hummer wasn’t so climate-friendly and never made it to commercial production.)
Monahan said the state’s aggressive push to get drivers into hydrogen cars is meant to help the technology rapidly scale up, to the point where large fleets of trucks running on diesel and aircraft powered by jet fuel could be retired in favor of cleaner-burning hydrogen models. Demonstration hydrogen trucks are operational at the Port of Los Angeles, and 48 hydrogen buses are being used by local transportation agencies.

Hydrogen boosters note that the far-more-popular battery-powered cars are experiencing their own growing pains, as automakers and regulators confront supply-chain challenges and environmental questions complicating the push to rid the planet of climate-unfriendly internal combustion engines. The hydrogen cars can go 400 miles on a full tank, and they don’t require waiting around for a battery to charge.
Yet nearly two decades into the hydrogen experiment, it remains a uniquely expensive gambit. The state has spent $125 million to make its struggling network of 50 public hydrogen fueling stations operational. That network is still so shaky — with stations frequently malfunctioning or out of fuel — that Toyota provides free towing and car rental service to drivers who purchase a Mirai, as getting stranded is a constant risk.

“It was a regular sight to see a car coming in on a flatbed when I went to get fuel,” said Scott Lerner, a writing instructor at UC Irvine who leased a Mirai until the hardship of hydrogen motoring got to be too much. “We would often have these commiserating circles at the station, where people would share horror stories.”

The state is undeterred. At the end of last year, as Lerner was retiring his Mirai, the California Energy Commission was greenlighting another $169 million for fueling stations. The panel hopes to help open 111 more stations by 2027, plus 13 that can also service trucks and buses.
That is a subsidy from the state of more than $1 million per station, mostly for a fleet of about 9,000 private vehicles. They are mainly Mirais, but there are also a smattering of Hyundai and Honda hydrogen cars on the freeways. In the latest unencouraging sign for Hydrogen Highway evangelists, Honda this month announced that it will soon stop selling the Clarity, the one hydrogen model it has available.

The news was met with relief by some.

“Failure is never something to celebrate, but nor is wasting money on dead end transport solutions,” Michael Liebreich, a clean-energy analyst, wrote on Twitter.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... to-nowhere
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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sikacz wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:38 pm Holding industry accountable should be critical. Frankly I don’t see why industry and energy production or electric is treated separately. Unless one wants to push car emissions. Sure it’s important to reduce vehicle emissions, but the corporate emission is near double that of vehicles if we combine both under the same banner.
But think of the Corporate CEOs and their salaries and benefits. Just look at what happen here in Texas last winter the Gas and Electric provider F*cked Up and now we as consumers are going to have to pay more for our utilities while they make huge profits from the government bailout. Instead they should have been forced to eat the loss.
The Watchdog: Texas wants to borrow $6.5 billion for outstanding bills from February’s freezeout. You’ll pay.
https://dentonrc.com/news/the_watchdog/ ... 1cd51.html
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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Battery technology is being developed. Aluminum Ion seems promising.
Range anxiety, recycling and fast-charging fears could all be consigned to electric-vehicle history with a nanotech-driven Australian battery invention.

The graphene aluminum-ion battery cells from the Brisbane-based Graphene Manufacturing Group (GMG) are claimed to charge up to 60 times faster than the best lithium-ion cells and hold three time the energy of the best aluminum-based cells.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltay ... 4770fa6d28

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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TrueTexan wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:53 pm
sikacz wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:38 pm Holding industry accountable should be critical. Frankly I don’t see why industry and energy production or electric is treated separately. Unless one wants to push car emissions. Sure it’s important to reduce vehicle emissions, but the corporate emission is near double that of vehicles if we combine both under the same banner.
But think of the Corporate CEOs and their salaries and benefits. Just look at what happen here in Texas last winter the Gas and Electric provider F*cked Up and now we as consumers are going to have to pay more for our utilities while they make huge profits from the government bailout. Instead they should have been forced to eat the loss.
The Watchdog: Texas wants to borrow $6.5 billion for outstanding bills from February’s freezeout. You’ll pay.
https://dentonrc.com/news/the_watchdog/ ... 1cd51.html
Yep, they should have taken the same hit many others have. It should have been a financial loss for them and their shareholders.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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FrontSight wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:27 am As it stands right now, a Tesla could be one of the best choices for a 2nd car...or for a first car if you live in a highly urbanized area, and don't make a lot of long trips (over 200mi). The performance is only going to get better. When it comes time to replace my wife's car, we're looking at Tesla's. Zero maintenance, and if you setup a dedicated solar charging station, you mostly drive for free (fuel wise).
Do yer research!!
The electric carmaker has struggled with quality issues as it has scaled its production from tens of thousand cars a year to 500,000 in 2020. On social media, customers have documented numerous problems with new Teslas, including large gaps between body panels, poor paint jobs and chipped glass.

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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F4FEver wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:30 am
FrontSight wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:27 am As it stands right now, a Tesla could be one of the best choices for a 2nd car...or for a first car if you live in a highly urbanized area, and don't make a lot of long trips (over 200mi). The performance is only going to get better. When it comes time to replace my wife's car, we're looking at Tesla's. Zero maintenance, and if you setup a dedicated solar charging station, you mostly drive for free (fuel wise).
Do yer research!!
The electric carmaker has struggled with quality issues as it has scaled its production from tens of thousand cars a year to 500,000 in 2020. On social media, customers have documented numerous problems with new Teslas, including large gaps between body panels, poor paint jobs and chipped glass.
Those are build quality issues, not maintenance. And they tend to only be found on the steel body Teslas. Of course it's not literally zero maintenance, but extremely low maintenance. I still say it's an outstanding second car.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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The problem I see is the batteries. Sure they have a 5 to 8 year warranty. And also I doubt they hold a charge as long when they age. So costing 3 to 5 grand to replace them is not something I'd be willing to invest in.
And then, who wants to buy a used car dependent on it's battery life. Just toss them in the junkyard. Disposable cars IMO. Bad for the environment at the end game.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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tonguengroover wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:37 pm The problem I see is the batteries. Sure they have a 5 to 8 year warranty. And also I doubt they hold a charge as long when they age. So costing 3 to 5 grand to replace them is not something I'd be willing to invest in.
And then, who wants to buy a used car dependent on it's battery life. Just toss them in the junkyard. Disposable cars IMO. Bad for the environment at the end game.
Valid points... The technology just isn't there yet FOR YOU.

Clearly others don't see that as a barrier. But I still think all of that is very legit. Just keep in mind, all of those things are goin to get progressively better over time. The hazardous disposable issues need to be properly addressed...something most of the new "green" technologies are failing at...but again, it will get better. Just have a little faith in the future.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Pete Buttigieg busts Fox News over uninformed question on electric cars

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Just like the internal combustion engine has gotten better. I remember my dad having to set the gap on the valves of his 1954 Ford every so many miles . Also other people I knew had to have valve jobs to replace worn or burned valves. Oil change every 3,000 miles. Engine tune up with spark plugs cleaned or replaced 5,000 miles points changed at that time. Repack wheel bearings every 10,000. Flush radiator add new anti-freeze every fall.

The electric cars will improve each year. They are basically at about 1930 era of the ICE cars for distance and needing refueling. But much better in reliability.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

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