Trooper Mark Coates

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So, there is a stretch of I-95 in SC named for him. I decided to look up who he was and why. Turns out that, as you might guess, he was tragically killed in the line of duty but the facts of the event are quite interesting.

I will quote from the website of an LE in training who watched the video:
This clip depicted a traffic stop made in 92 by a South Carolina trooper just north of the GA state line. He stopped an early model Mustang driven by a 5'7", 325+ white male by the name of Richard Blackburn. The trooper (I believe his name was Mark Coates) was over 6'0" and built like most troopers I've seen. Tall, trim and muscular, kind of a quarterback build. The motorist was very polite, followed all of the troopers orders, and seemed low risk. The trooper even wrote him a warning instead of a ticket and the stop was just about over when he asked the driver if he could search his vehicle. The driver agreed and signed the form, still in a pleasant mood. The voiceover commentary mentioned that at the time, officers did not routinely call for backup on a low risk traffic stop or even call out their location. As a matter of fact, two troopers even drove past in the early part of the stop and continued because everything looked fine. It was about 2015 so it was already dark, but it was on I-95, a heavily traveled highway. Anyway, the trooper said he needed to pat his person down first and the guy said okay. As the trooper patted him down, the driver, as he had for the duration, kept his left hand in his pocket. The trooper asked him to remove his hand once, then when he asked him a second time the suspect drew a firearm and pointed at the trooper while simultaneously shoving him to the ground and shouting "I'll kill you" and a bunch of other nice words.

The trooper landed on his back and stuck both hands up and you could hear him saying "It's cool man. Everything's okay" and just complying in general. The suspect was kind of straddling his legs and when he raised the gun to fire the trooper shoved him off and drew his weapon. The suspect got a shot off and hit the trooper right at the Velcro tab on his vest, going through his shoulder and exiting. The trooper fired 6 rounds from his .357 magnum, striking the suspect center mass 5 times. The suspect fell at the rear of the Mustang and the trooper back up to the front of the vehicle for more cover. The suspect had a .22 long rifle 8 shot derringer and as the trooper stood next to the front of the car calling for help, he shot the trooper again, breaking the trooper's 3rd and 4th rib before hitting and severing the aorta. You could see the trooper's arm fall limp as he stumbled around to the other side of the car and collapsed. Not knowing his location, dispatch couldn't send units directly to him, although one of the troopers that had passed him earlier filled in the location and raced back to the scene from about a mile away.

Using split screen, they showed the fallen trooper's video and the responding trooper's video in synch. It was horrible watching the trooper kind of roll side to side on the ground in the 45-60 seconds it took to reach him. You could see the suspect sit up and point his weapon towards him a few times before lying back down. When the first trooper arrived, the fallen trooper was still moving although he was probably near death from the massive internal bleeding. They pretty much let the tape roll as more trooper responded and the paramedics arrived. The trooper died at the scene from his injuries. The suspect, despite being hit 5 times center mass with a .357 magnum at 6-8 feet, was conscious and talking at the scene and survived. It was later discovered that all he had was 6 oz. of marijuana and a concealed weapon. Now he's serving a life sentence and robbed a wife of her husband and four children of a father.
SC has since made several changes in policy, including not initiating searches until backup arrives, etc.

Here is the news article http://savannahnow.com/stories/021798/C ... iller.html

First, its always depressing to hear about such a tragic and senseless murder. Second, can we learn anything from it?

So..... from what I have read, Coates was using .357 Winchester Silver Tips (145gr). These are apparently some sort of modified hollow point. http://www.winchester.com/products/rifl ... fault.aspx

Most accounts say that the shithead had a NAA mini in .22lr.

So, fat dude takes 5 shots center of mass with one of the most deadly man stoppers ever. And the .22lr kills the cop. Obviously, there is a combination of penetration and shot placement here. The 22 penetrated enough - but the .357 didn't get through what was probably a foot of fat. Hollow points obviously don't penetrate as much as fmj. But does that mean that I should now load up my .357 with all fmj? They won't make as big of a hole but they will definitely get to the vitals. Or do I need to switch to all Buffalo Bore ammo? But then what about over penetration? Ack.
"The waves which dash on the shore are, one by one, broken; but yet the ocean conquers nevertheless."
- Lord Byron

Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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Wow that's a really sad story. 5'7"@325# sounds like he was a big boy. I don't consider myself an expert in bullet wounds, and my friend who works in an Army hospital doesn't get too many .357 or .22lr wounds to fix up. My best guess is that if the heart or the spine were not sufficiently destroyed then a big guy has a fighting chance. Maybe the guy took the shots to his lungs, but I don't think that will result in instant death. I could ask my buddy to see what he thinks.
"the task of Social-Democracy [revolutionary] is
to imbue the proletariat (literally: saturate the
proletariat) with the consciousness of its position and the
consciousness of its task."

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Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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One of the instructors I took a class from is a LEO down in Illinois. He's been involved in two shootings. The second one is the one I'll relay.

He was involved in a confrontation with an armed suspect. The BG was armed with a revolver (I don't remember which caliber) and took 6 rounds of 230 grain .45JHP from the instructor's service weapon. The shots literally drove him to the ground. He tried to lever himself back up with the hand not holding the firearm while he tried to bring the revolver to bear on the instructor.

The instructor shot him in the head.

Lesson learned: center of mass and then head shots, Mozambique style.
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Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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amrev360 wrote:Wow that's a really sad story. 5'7"@325# sounds like he was a big boy. I don't consider myself an expert in bullet wounds, and my friend who works in an Army hospital doesn't get too many .357 or .22lr wounds to fix up. My best guess is that if the heart or the spine were not sufficiently destroyed then a big guy has a fighting chance. Maybe the guy took the shots to his lungs, but I don't think that will result in instant death. I could ask my buddy to see what he thinks.

From what I read elsewhere, it seemed that the bullets didn't get to anything internal. Just too much fat. Thinking about how thick a person like that might be, there would be quite a bit of thickness there before you hit any organ.
"The waves which dash on the shore are, one by one, broken; but yet the ocean conquers nevertheless."
- Lord Byron

Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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mark wrote:First, its always depressing to hear about such a tragic and senseless murder.
Yes.
mark wrote:Second, can we learn anything from it?
Not claiming to contribute anything very enlightening, here's my "off the top of my head" list:

- Reality does not care about Internet punditry. (I'm referring to the millions of 9mm vs .40 vs .45 threads.)

- Placement, placement, placement. (The 22lr hit the right spot. It does not matter that it is only a 22lr.)

- Sometimes, things just do no go your way.

- 6 shots are not enough. (Even with the Mozambique drill. The clip shows the drill performed with 3 shots but that's against a cardboard target. Not moving, not shooting back, no life-or-death stress, etc.) The description of the event says "the suspect fell at the rear of the Mustang" which seems like the perfect moment to take aim for the head but according to the description, the cop had emptied his revolver by that time.

- Practice the Mozambique drill (Thanks, KVoimakas).
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. -- MLK

Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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mark wrote:SC has since made several changes in policy, including not initiating searches until backup arrives, etc.

Here is the news article http://savannahnow.com/stories/021798/C ... iller.html

First, its always depressing to hear about such a tragic and senseless murder. Second, can we learn anything from it?
Really sad.

Reminds me of the 1986 Miami FBI shootout and the 1997 LA bank robbery, in that there are lesson to be learned, but I think they're much more about tactics, rather than ballistics. In this case, we can speculate about penetration, expansion, or whether a 6th or 16th shot would have mattered, but waiting for backup probably would have made all the difference. Other officers were only a minute or two away, but once shots were fired, that was literally a lifetime too long.

As far as "take-home" lessons for personal defense, again, I don't think it's an issue of ammo choice. Police on the job have to confront violent criminals. The rest of us have lots more options to avoid that confrontation.

Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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MtnMan wrote: As far as "take-home" lessons for personal defense, again, I don't think it's an issue of ammo choice. Police on the job have to confront violent criminals. The rest of us have lots more options to avoid that confrontation.
I agree and I disagree.

I agree that avoidance is a valid strategy and that in many situations it is the best strategy. I'll gladly hear what anybody has to say about avoidance strategies. And I don't mean this sarcastically. Probably in the case of Mark Coates, if he had asked for backup before searching, he would not be dead.

However, the very reason I have a gun is for cases when avoidance just won't work. (Logically, if avoidance always worked, I would not need a gun.) So if I have avoided but still end up at a point where avoidance is no longer an option, what then? Going back to the case of Mark Coates, given that he made an error in judgment, what then?
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. -- MLK

Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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This is an interesting story. It makes you wonder if the guy had just refused the search and pat down if the Trooper would have just let him go or called in additional units if he felt there was probable cause for a search. I bet if there had been additional troopers there this guy wouldn't have fired.
And let me tell you somethin' bout the whole "an ant can lift a hundred times its weight" buisness, it's a myth, how much do you think an ant actually weighs--like nothin, what's nothin times a hundred....IT"S NOTHING!

Re: Trooper Mark Coates

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lemur wrote:So if I have avoided but still end up at a point where avoidance is no longer an option, what then? Going back to the case of Mark Coates, given that he made an error in judgment, what then?
OK, I'll try to clarify my point.... Handguns are a compromise, and no handgun load is a guaranteed manstopper, even with multiple hits. There's lots of evidence that .357 JHP is one of the most effective choices, but in this very unusual case, it wasn't enough.

So, if this story makes you nervous about the defensive potential of your handgun... well, it should. But switching to FMJ (Mark's original query) is almost certainly not the solution. What I meant to express is that I think the productive response is to concentrate on improving the more controllable parts of your defense plan, rather than focus on terminal ballistic performance. Quality defensive JHP ammo is probably the best choice, but it's still the last, weakest, most unpredictable link in the chain.

Furthermore, this may not be a clear-cut case of inadequate penetration....
mark wrote:From what I read elsewhere, it seemed that the bullets didn't get to anything internal. Just too much fat. Thinking about how thick a person like that might be, there would be quite a bit of thickness there before you hit any organ.
This is speculative, and grisly, but there's also lots of body fat distributed in and around the organs. It's conceivable that the rounds penetrated to organ depth but simply missed vital structures. To put it bluntly, someone with that much mass has a lot of non-vital center mass, and FMJ might not have been any more effective.

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