goosekiller wrote:

FrontSight wrote:

goosekiller wrote:Yeah - shit for brains.

Excuse me...I really don't follow the whole birther thing, I think it's BS too. But I thought this story was interesting. I guess that means I have shit for brains if I question things; that's open minded.

Please don't misunderstand. The Birthers do indeed have shit for brains since the proof has been available for quite some time. The jury is still out on the rest of us. I am very open-minded - until concrete evidence of something is produced. It has been. You are excused.

Blow me.

No where did I even HINT that I believe the birthers. Just thought the subject was interesting in light of the radio conversation and asked people's opinions. So your opinion is that I have shit for brains because I want to talk about some subject. You're a dick.

Biggest irony is that John McCain actually was born outside the US--in the U.S. controlled canal zone in Panama. Obama & the Democrats never made a big deal out of it & there's a good case to be made that U.S. military bases should count the same as being born in the U.S. However, you just know this same birther nonsense would have been thrown at Obama if it had been he who was born on a base in the canal zone.

Basically, the birthers are perpetually in search of an excuse for opposing Obama as a person, and not just as a liberal (which he can barely claim to be) or even on any point of policy whatsoever. They will continue to attack his legitimacy to represent the United States using every reason they can think of except the one, real reason they keep locked up in their narrow little minds, never to utter, even to each other.

FrontSight wrote:

Van wrote:It's entirely possible that, if there ever was a copy of the so-called "long form" birth certificate, Obama doesn't know where it is.

Long form certificates get lost all the time. Basements flood, houses burn down, people move and lose stuff...That's why most states offer certified verifications of live birth, the same type of form that Obama has made avaliable to the public.

Of course, if this is the case, for Obama to say "Uh...I lost it" won't play well with the birthers.

It seems that a simple way to solve this would be to find other babies born in the same hospital on or around the same date as Obama. Were long form certificates ever issued to them? If not, then this is a non-issue. If long forms were issued for these kids, then it's possible that Obama's long form is simply lost or destroyed.

There are lots of things that can be done, but it all has to start with Obama or the State saying, they can't find it; and that can bring out all the conspiracy theorist just in itself. Personally, if it can’t be found, I think it would be easy to prove one way or another. Obama was given a SSN, drivers license, signed up for selective service, went to public schools, and a whole lot of other things that require proof of birth. If that proof of birth was outside of the US, I would imagine some government document would make note of it (selective service, and SSN at least).

Hey, if it’s lost then it’s lost; I honestly don’t see the big deal. If my birth certificate were lost, I could find mounds of evidence to support me being a US citizen; it just wouldn’t be that hard.

What I think would be VERY hard to prove though, is Obama not being a US citizen, and in that case, the absence of a birth certificate doesn’t mean anything other than you can’t find the birth certificate. Actually, outside a birth certificate from some other nation, I just don’t see how you can prove Obama isn’t a natural born citizen.

The Clinton's have one of the best dirt-digging operations in US politics. If there were ANY substance to these allegations, it would have come up during the primaries.

Van wrote:The Clinton's have one of the best dirt-digging operations in US politics. If there were ANY substance to these allegations, it would have come up during the primaries.

Now there's an argument even the right wingers might have to acknowledge; though, having to chose between their reflexive hatred of the Clintons and their reflexive hatred of Obama might cause their heads to spontaneously explode.

FrontSight wrote:

GlockLobster wrote:Blowjobs, Barrack HUSSEIN Obama, Swift Boaters, New World Order
...it's like every right winger's fantasy.

What about Bush's guard service?

Corsi doesn't cover the "left wing" conspiracy theory of W and his so called service in protecting the
skies of Texas from the Viet Cong. Kerry on the other hand is open game for him.

The dumbest thing is, the Constitution doesn't say you have to be born in the USA. It just says you have to be natural born.

There are only two types of citizens: natural born and naturalized. Naturalized means you were not born a US citizen, you had to apply for citizenship, pass a test, etc.

To be a natural born citizen you must have at least ONE of the following:

1) Be born in the US
OR
2) At least ONE parent must be a US citizen at the time of your birth.

It doesn't make a lick of difference where Obama was born because his mother was a US citizen at the time of his birth.

FrontSight wrote: Blow me.

No where did I even HINT that I believe the birthers. Just thought the subject was interesting in light of the radio conversation and asked people's opinions. So your opinion is that I have shit for brains because I want to talk about some subject. You're a dick.

No thank you.

I never said YOU had shit for brains. You posed the question: could they have something?
My asnwer to that question is: Yes - shit for brains.
Your reading comprehension is now in question, however...

I may be a dick, but you seem intent on being a victim - a match made in Heaven!

ZJohnson wrote:Biggest irony is that John McCain actually was born outside the US--in the U.S. controlled canal zone in Panama. Obama & the Democrats never made a big deal out of it & there's a good case to be made that U.S. military bases should count the same as being born in the U.S.

What case is that? It’s my understanding that any US diplomatic or military installation is legally considered US territory; am I wrong (I certainly could be).

ZJohnson wrote:However, you just know this same birther nonsense would have been thrown at Obama if it had been he who was born on a base in the canal zone.

Yep, no doubt about that. Partisan operators will always find something.

ZJohnson wrote:Basically, the birthers are perpetually in search of an excuse for opposing Obama as a person, and not just as a liberal (which he can barely claim to be) or even on any point of policy whatsoever. They will continue to attack his legitimacy to represent the United States using every reason they can think of except the one, real reason they keep locked up in their narrow little minds, never to utter, even to each other.

While I know that what you’re getting at is racism, I disagree; this is about politics. Not that I'm denying that there are those who's motivations are purely racial; I have no illusions of such a-holes. But if the same circumstances existed and Obama was white, the birthers would still exist and would still push with the same enthusiasm. The extreme right wing just hates anything on the left, and will oppose them with vigor in any arena they can. The same can be said for the extreme left (although I think they aren’t quite as zelous as the right).

Hell, I was just in a conversation with a right winger who was pissed that Obama recently proposed something that was purely Republican in nature. It’s not because he’s black, it’s because he’s a democrat, and these guys hate Democrats more than the devil himself (whom they know to be a Republican). I just think this crap goes with the job; every president has had some sort of wacko conspiracy guys chasing them.

Apology accepted.

goosekiller wrote:No thank you.

I never said YOU had shit for brains. You posed the question: could they have something?
My asnwer to that question is: Yes - shit for brains.
Your reading comprehension is now in question, however...

I may be a dick, but you seem intent on being a victim - a match made in Heaven!

Perhaps my reading comprehension is bad. But even when I re-read that, it does appear pointed at me. If it is not, you have my sincere apology at my rebuttal. If you were not calling me shit for brains then what I said clearly doesn't apply, and you are not being a dick.

Thank you for the clarification, and please forgive the misunderstanding.

As to being a victim - There may be something to that; I'm a bit overly sensitive as of late. I'm surrounded by right wingers at work; and I mean SURROUNDED. We've been having lots of conversations, and I've been ganged up a lot; no big, I can handle it. But it does appear that it is taking it's toll since I'm a bit thin skinned on this forum. Thanks for pointing it out.

No sweat, brother.

FrontSight wrote: I'm a bit overly sensitive as of late. I'm surrounded by right wingers at work; and I mean SURROUNDED.

I know the feeling. Try being a Marxist while going to grad school at Louisiana State. Pretty lonely....

Van wrote:

FrontSight wrote: I'm a bit overly sensitive as of late. I'm surrounded by right wingers at work; and I mean SURROUNDED.

I know the feeling. Try being a Marxist while going to grad school at Louisiana State. Pretty lonely....

Yikes. Sounds alot like being the Progressive in a goose pit day in and day out.

FrontSight wrote:

ZJohnson wrote:Biggest irony is that John McCain actually was born outside the US--in the U.S. controlled canal zone in Panama. Obama & the Democrats never made a big deal out of it & there's a good case to be made that U.S. military bases should count the same as being born in the U.S.

What case is that? It’s my understanding that any US diplomatic or military installation is legally considered US territory; am I wrong (I certainly could be).

ZJohnson wrote:However, you just know this same birther nonsense would have been thrown at Obama if it had been he who was born on a base in the canal zone.

Yep, no doubt about that. Partisan operators will always find something.

ZJohnson wrote:Basically, the birthers are perpetually in search of an excuse for opposing Obama as a person, and not just as a liberal (which he can barely claim to be) or even on any point of policy whatsoever. They will continue to attack his legitimacy to represent the United States using every reason they can think of except the one, real reason they keep locked up in their narrow little minds, never to utter, even to each other.

While I know that what you’re getting at is racism, I disagree; this is about politics. Not that I'm denying that there are those who's motivations are purely racial; I have no illusions of such a-holes. But if the same circumstances existed and Obama was white, the birthers would still exist and would still push with the same enthusiasm. The extreme right wing just hates anything on the left, and will oppose them with vigor in any arena they can. The same can be said for the extreme left (although I think they aren’t quite as zelous as the right).

Hell, I was just in a conversation with a right winger who was pissed that Obama recently proposed something that was purely Republican in nature. It’s not because he’s black, it’s because he’s a democrat, and these guys hate Democrats more than the devil himself (whom they know to be a Republican). I just think this crap goes with the job; every president has had some sort of wacko conspiracy guys chasing them.

Can't disagree with most of what you say--the irrational anti-Clinton hyperbole early in his first term certainly supports what you say. But I think the broader appeal of irrational attacks on Obama speak to, ahem, darker motivations.

I care not what anyone thinks on this. I have heard straight from many mouths that it is about color. I actually have shaken the hand of many a racist for having the balls to be honest about it.

goosekiller wrote:I care not what anyone thinks on this. I have heard straight from many mouths that it is about color. I actually have shaken the hand of many a racist for having the balls to be honest about it.

I don't know why but that reminded me of an incident I had at the range one day.

I was there with my wonderful commie guns (AK, Tokarev, Mosin). 2 guys were there with 2 kids (the kids were maybe around 14 or so). I also had my Ruger GP-100. It's a mildly tricked out gun: bobbed hammer, trigger job, Wolff spring replacement for main hammer spring and trigger return spring, fiber optic front sight, adjustable "V" notch rear sight, milled cylinder to accept moon clips.

Anyway, the reason I mention my Ruger is because I was shooting it when one of the guys said something about "the coming race war." The first and actually only thought that came to mind was about "race guns"; i.e. that shooting sports are invariably marred by a constant battle to get the latest and greatest new modification to get an edge on the competition resulting in not being able to compete unless you can afford a $2000+ gun. I started to say something about that, then after about 20 seconds or so I realized what they were actually talking about.

For a brief moment I felt stupid for not realizing what they were actually talking about. That feeling was quickly replaced by repulsion.

FrontSight wrote: As to being a victim - There may be something to that; I'm a bit overly sensitive as of late. I'm surrounded by right wingers at work; and I mean SURROUNDED. We've been having lots of conversations, and I've been ganged up a lot; no big, I can handle it. But it does appear that it is taking it's toll since I'm a bit thin skinned on this forum. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm surrounded by right wingers at work as well. Generally, as long as they can remain civil so do I and have even had some success in finding common ground by dispelling common misconceptions. One of my favorite points of argument is taxes and the wealthy, there seems to be a common misconception (even amongst many liberals I've spoken with) that when the left talks about taxing the wealthiest Americans they're simply talking about placing a very high percentage tax on all high earners, when in fact it's talking about how the tax base was setup in the past, for example, from 1945 to 1963 the top 3% earners paid as much as 88% to 93% taxes, but that tax rate was actually reserved for people like hedge fund managers, bankers, and other high earners who really just more money around and do very little that's actually beneficial to the economy, but high income people like say a corporate mogul who owns large manufacturing companies, for example, who invest their money into things like bonds, company infrastructure, expanded employee benefits, higher wages, new equipment, etc. would receive huge tax breaks and get to keep most of what's left. This tax strategy, in large part, kept the economy rolling during the years, reduced inequality between the rich and poor to it's lowest point in US history and is the reason why the period from '45 to '63 was strongest our economy ever was.

I've found that most people, regardless of political affiliation, when having the subject explained to them from this point of view, that it's not about taking the wealthiest Americans money away from them, but rather making them use that money in a way that beneficial to the American economy and thus the American people, rather than hoarding every cent they get their greedy little fingers on, agree with this type of tax policy. The only people I've found that disagree with this type of policy are a few raving idiot teabaggers and the wealthy themselves.

As for the raging teabagger twits screaming that Obama is a Muslim/wasn't born in the US/is a Communist/has ruined the economy/etc., I smile and calming explain to them why what they believe is wrong, if they continue then calmly explain to them why they're a complete idiot and should turn off Fox News and try actually verifying some of the nonsense they're spewing from legitimate sources and perhaps learning how to read. Typically they walk away frustrated and confused after I shoot down every of piece of hate filled vitriol they can muster.

An interesting fact: Most of the wealthiest Americans we're C students at best (Dick Cheney was kicked out of Harvard repeatedly for having a D average only to have daddy buy his way back in), most of the smartest Americans never make more than about $100,000 a year.

I don't spend a great deal of time around the right wing, they kind of give me the creeps. I don't listen to Limbaugh or Beck, I've blocked fox news from my satellite converter, I won't even click on a news link from fox...

And still, nearly every time I hear the rants from the right that I do encounter, there is always an undertone of race hatred directed at the President. From the person whom I suspect was a rep for Ruger at a local gun shop referring to Obama as "that gang banger in the White House", to the birthers clamoring for more paper.

Put simply, I am not aware that this has ever been an issue before now...but then, we have never had a non-white President before either.

I don't put a lot of stock in coincidence.

Wurble wrote:

goosekiller wrote:I care not what anyone thinks on this. I have heard straight from many mouths that it is about color. I actually have shaken the hand of many a racist for having the balls to be honest about it.

I don't know why but that reminded me of an incident I had at the range one day.

I was there with my wonderful commie guns (AK, Tokarev, Mosin). 2 guys were there with 2 kids (the kids were maybe around 14 or so). I also had my Ruger GP-100. It's a mildly tricked out gun: bobbed hammer, trigger job, Wolff spring replacement for main hammer spring and trigger return spring, fiber optic front sight, adjustable "V" notch rear sight, milled cylinder to accept moon clips.

Anyway, the reason I mention my Ruger is because I was shooting it when one of the guys said something about "the coming race war." The first and actually only thought that came to mind was about "race guns"; i.e. that shooting sports are invariably marred by a constant battle to get the latest and greatest new modification to get an edge on the competition resulting in not being able to compete unless you can afford a $2000+ gun. I started to say something about that, then after about 20 seconds or so I realized what they were actually talking about.

For a brief moment I felt stupid for not realizing what they were actually talking about. That feeling was quickly replaced by repulsion.

A couple of weeks after Obama was elected I went to the range. There was a whole gaggle of repugs insisting that "that n****r" is going to try to take their guns away and plugging away at targets with Obama's face on it. One of these ignorant walking turds came up to me and told me I needed to stock up on ammo because Obama is going to outlaw bullets and asked if I wanted one of his vile targets. I politely declined his offer and informed him that firearms are one of the biggest political footballs in U.S. history and no one is going to outlaw them or their bullets. He looked very confused and wondered off.

rolandson wrote:I don't spend a great deal of time around the right wing, they kind of give me the creeps. I don't listen to Limbaugh or Beck, I've blocked fox news from my satellite converter, I won't even click on a news link from fox...

And still, nearly every time I hear the rants from the right that I do encounter, there is always an undertone of race hatred directed at the President. From the person whom I suspect was a rep for Ruger at a local gun shop referring to Obama as "that gang banger in the White House", to the birthers clamoring for more paper.

Put simply, I am not aware that this has ever been an issue before now...but then, we have never had a non-white President before either.

I don't put a lot of stock in coincidence.

I tend to read some of the conservative news sources and even watch Glenn Beck once in a while, or at least the highlights of his lunacy on YouTube. Know your enemy!

It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle. --Sun Tzu

Love&A.45 wrote:I politely declined his offer and informed him that firearms are one of the biggest political footballs in U.S. history and no one is going to outlaw them or their bullets. He looked very confused and wondered off.

He probably only understood football and bullets.

marcgo2 wrote:

Love&A.45 wrote:I politely declined his offer and informed him that firearms are one of the biggest political footballs in U.S. history and no one is going to outlaw them or their bullets. He looked very confused and wondered off.

He probably only understood football and bullets.

Love&A.45 wrote: I tend to read some of the conservative news sources and even watch Glenn Beck once in a while, or at least the highlights of his lunacy on YouTube. Know your enemy!

It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle. --Sun Tzu

I used to do the same but grew so weary of having the urge to throw up reoccur with regularity. Now I just wait for Stewart, Colbert, Radigan, Matthews or up until a week ago Olberman to give me the highlights of what the lowlife right is ranting about.

rolandson wrote:I used to do the same but grew so weary of having the urge to throw up reoccur with regularity. Now I just wait for Stewart, Colbert, Radigan, Matthews or up until a week ago Olberman to give me the highlights of what the lowlife right is ranting about.

Yup. I have tried to watch Beck many times. My blood pressure spikes, i scream at the TV, and the channel gets changed within the first few minutes every time. I cannot believe that thinking adults can watch this shit, let alone take it as gospel. It really scares the Hell out of me.

goosekiller wrote:

rolandson wrote:I used to do the same but grew so weary of having the urge to throw up reoccur with regularity. Now I just wait for Stewart, Colbert, Radigan, Matthews or up until a week ago Olberman to give me the highlights of what the lowlife right is ranting about.

Yup. I have tried to watch Beck many times. My blood pressure spikes, i scream at the TV, and the channel gets changed within the first few minutes every time. I cannot believe that thinking adults can watch this shit, let alone take it as gospel. It really scares the Hell out of me.

I can't take Beck for more than about 10 minutes, but in that 10 minutes I watch in awe of the fact that any sane person could ever take that clown seriously, let alone as a serious political philosophy.