I saw this video link on two gun boards. This was a presentation at Regent Law School - Pat Robertson's university. First part is a law professor, second part is a cop.

Ah, yes. I've seen it in another forum. Very informative.

Another bit of advice often accompanying this one is: "never consent to a search." If a cop has a legal reason to search you (probable cause or reasonable suspicion), then he can search you without your consent. If you give consent, you are in effect authorizing a fishing expedition.

It was done better here.

Can't watch at work (blocked) but I have seen the presentation as well.

I hate to see police as an adversary because I think that they perform a public service, but yes, I agree that you should never say anything under the assumption that "they are looking out for your best interest" or "if you aren't guilty, you have nothing to hide". Their mandate is to solve crimes and enforce laws. As a side effect of that mandate we receive a reduced crime rate and some protections, but as much as police might be decent people, their orders often conflict with individual rights and they will try to stretch legality as far as it will go in order to complete their mandate.

This was the meat and potato course of my high school civics class so many years ago, and I have never forgotten it. The instructor was my first exposure to 'the libertarian', though he called himself a 'constitutionalist' and as such literally drilled us on the bill of rights.

The little things like the proper response to a common question posed during a traffic stop:

"Do you know how fast you were going?"

Now I lived in a fairly small town and within a month the local constabulary was having a very difficult time with the junior and senior class of our high school. As can be guessed, most of us were asked that question at least once during those years...and we all had the same answer...

"Yes...." Usually followed by an uncomfortable silence and a questioning tilt of the head by the officer in anticipation of some additional comment that would not be forthcoming, and then...

"Do you mind telling me how fast that was?"

"Well, yes officer I do."

It was put in a very precise fashion; that there is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising any of the rights granted to you by the constitution.

On Saturdays we could attend an anti war demonstration for extra credit.

I hate stupid tricks. When I was an mp and had to run radar I never played the guessing game. I would say I stopped you because you were doing X in a Y.

Of the last 4 times I was pulled for speeding when asked the question "do you know why I pulled you over today, sir?" When I said "Well, I think I was speeding a little." I was given a warning - 2 times. When I said, "I am not really sure" I was given tickets. I bet cops appreciate it if you just don't make their life more difficult.

mark wrote:Of the last 4 times I was pulled for speeding when asked the question "do you know why I pulled you over today, sir?" When I said "Well, I think I was speeding a little." I was given a warning - 2 times. When I said, "I am not really sure" I was given tickets. I bet cops appreciate it if you just don't make their life more difficult.

I agree when in comes to violations like speeding, that police tend to take a different tack depending on if you give them attitude. If I remember, the presentation dealt more with search and questioning in the field or at the police station. I try to be courteous, especially if I know I was actually speeding or something, but if they asked me if they could take a look in my car I would say, "no I do not give my consent for you to search my car without a proper warrant." Even though I have nothing in there that would be considered illegal.

People pay me $500 an hour for this advice: Never ever waive your right to remain silent. Nothing you can say will help you. Unfortunately, by the time they decide to ask for me, they've usually shot their mouths off. I make a lot more money when they do that but that is the only good thing that comes from talking to the cops.

mark wrote:Of the last 4 times I was pulled for speeding when asked the question "do you know why I pulled you over today, sir?" When I said "Well, I think I was speeding a little." I was given a warning - 2 times. When I said, "I am not really sure" I was given tickets. I bet cops appreciate it if you just don't make their life more difficult.

Allow me to preface this with the limits of my experience; I haven't been pulled over for speeding in 30 years, probably because I don't. 31 years ago, I got a speeding ticket that I defeated in court because the officer's testimony conflicted with what was written on the ticket (he got my name wrong while testifying).

I was pulled over 18 months ago and the officer was quite up front about it...

He immediately informed me that my brake lights didn't work and there was smoke coming out of the engine compartment. Together we discovered what was to become a major recall of Ford's, having something to do with faulty electrical / brake system issues. He didn't cite me.

On a side note, when he asked for license registration and insurance, I also handed over my CHL without being prompted. He appreciated that. We then had a 10 minute conversation about handguns while waiting for the fire department and tow truck.

I don't believe that I made any suggestion regarding creating difficulty for police doing their jobs, but I have no reason to suggest that anyone do their job for them either, like confessing to a traffic violation.

By all means, be polite, keep your hands in sight and don't make any sudden moves...that's just common sense.

By the same token, if I am pulled over, I expect to be cited. I do not entertain the notion that I am able to talk my way out of something and I sure as hell am not going to freely admit to what the police would otherwise have to prove in court.

Ours is an adversarial system. Personally, I would prefer a system where the pursuit of truth transcends winning. But police and prosecutors and defense lawyers advance their careers by winning, not by seeking justice.

Nothing about our system promises justice, just one's opportunity to possibly get a crack at something resembling it.

Caliman73 wrote:Even though I have nothing in there that would be considered illegal.

The laws are such that it can be pretty damn hard to know what laws exactly you may or may not be breaking.

I've just recently learned that Kinder Surprise is illegal to bring into the US (choking hazard). It is freely sold in Canada though (maybe in Mexico too?). Cross the border with it and it can be confiscated. If found after you've crossed the border, you can be fined $300. That's a lot of money for a small chocolate egg.

What else do I not know?

And now for a rant... Ok, let us presume for a moment that Kinder Surprise is a serious choking hazard. Let's grant this. Why on earth must the government go after citizens who are obviously not engaging into mass importation of the damn thing and who are presumably going to use it for their own purposes, not for resale??? I'm all for the border agents warning folks that it is a choking hazard and telling them that resale inside the US is illegal and that they will be held legally responsible if someone chokes on them. (So don't just give them to toddlers, etc, etc.) But why confiscate it at the border or give a $300 fine just for possession? This is crazy!

For those of you with CCWs there are states like Ohio, for instance, that require you to tell a police officer with whom you come into contact that you are legally carrying a concealed weapon.

Black Eagle wrote:People pay me $500 an hour for this advice: Never ever waive your right to remain silent. Nothing you can say will help you. Unfortunately, by the time they decide to ask for me, they've usually shot their mouths off. I make a lot more money when they do that but that is the only good thing that comes from talking to the cops.

Hey BE!!

I was asking about you and richudson a week or two ago. Good to see you back. I can see how people's ignorance would be a boon to your business

When I was a long-haired bearded hippy, most always up to no good at all hours, I was pulled over constantly! What the hell was that about?!

Yes, I think we diverted it from larger picture ideas into traffic stops. Traffic stops are basically inconsequential. Like was said earlier, I assume I am getting a ticket anyway and my experience is the truth works best gaining leniency for traffic infractions.

And as far as searches go, I had my car searched once. I was suspicious. I had been studying late at night on campus with a group of other people while in college. It was a big test and a subject I wasnt naturally good at. I was also in the process of slowly moving from one place to another. So I had much of my crap in my car. It was packed with stuff. And it was an old, rust green 1972 Ford. I stood out. It was 3am when I left. They pulled me over, asked what I was doing. I told them and they asked if they could search the car. I had not one thing in there to be worried about. No drugs, no alcohol, no weird porn, no guns. Everything I had was legally mine and I had nothing to hide. I understand the rationale behind saying "no you can't" but a cop buddy of mine told me all that does is piss them off and they start looking for ways to screw you over and arrest you at that point. I countered - 'well, that is what they are doing in the first place by searching'. He says 'yeah, but they were just curious at first. now they are pissed'. So, strategically, I figure that since I have nothing to hide, its best not to piss them off. They can search all they want. Idealistically, I figure that since I have nothing to hide, I will be damned if I am going to act like I am guilty. I know this isn't exactly how the system works but I guess I just don't care. Those cops and I joked about how shitty all my things were, we chatted nicely for a few minutes and then they went on their way after shaking my hand. No harm done.

If I ever get arrested for something, you can be sure I will have a different mindset at that point and stay silent until I can seek legal counsel.

Missouri has no "duty to inform" law for CCW but my Sheriff's office recommends calmly notifying an officer if you are armed. They will pull up any endorsements when they run the license number on their computer and then from what I understand be kinda pissed you didn't tell them.

mark wrote:Yes, I think we diverted it from larger picture ideas into traffic stops. Traffic stops are basically inconsequential. Like was said earlier, I assume I am getting a ticket anyway and my experience is the truth works best gaining leniency for traffic infractions.

And as far as searches go, I had my car searched once. I was suspicious. I had been studying late at night on campus with a group of other people while in college. It was a big test and a subject I wasnt naturally good at. I was also in the process of slowly moving from one place to another. So I had much of my crap in my car. It was packed with stuff. And it was an old, rust green 1972 Ford. I stood out. It was 3am when I left. They pulled me over, asked what I was doing. I told them and they asked if they could search the car. I had not one thing in there to be worried about. No drugs, no alcohol, no weird porn, no guns. Everything I had was legally mine and I had nothing to hide. I understand the rationale behind saying "no you can't" but a cop buddy of mine told me all that does is piss them off and they start looking for ways to screw you over and arrest you at that point. I countered - 'well, that is what they are doing in the first place by searching'. He says 'yeah, but they were just curious at first. now they are pissed'. So, strategically, I figure that since I have nothing to hide, its best not to piss them off. They can search all they want. Idealistically, I figure that since I have nothing to hide, I will be damned if I am going to act like I am guilty. I know this isn't exactly how the system works but I guess I just don't care. Those cops and I joked about how shitty all my things were, we chatted nicely for a few minutes and then they went on their way after shaking my hand. No harm done.

If I ever get arrested for something, you can be sure I will have a different mindset at that point and stay silent until I can seek legal counsel.

As I understand the videos, it's what you say to the police before they arrest you that may prove to be the problem.

Looking at the scenario you shared; you accepted that you were subjected to a search that there was no legitimate reason for, that is until you gave your consent.

I know a young woman who had car trouble on a rather cold, wet evening. A cop pulled over and offered let her sit in the patrol car until help arrived but the price of admission was the cop had to look in her purse before she could sit in the car...safety you understand...no weapons allowed. The woman consented and the cop found a joint. Thus began a long, expensive trip through the CJ system. I asked why she didn't just go sit in her own car and her reply was striking: "I didn't want to make her (the cop) feel bad."

I have had regular interaction with police for quite a few years after having been the victim of a violent crime. My life was saved by a particularly brave motorcycle cop during that assault. I co-coached my kid's soccer team with a sergeant on our force whom I consider a friend. I have a great deal of respect for police and what they do.

But...there's always a but you know...

Their job description does not include protecting my rights.

My kids have grown beyond soccer, beyond the time where I tell them that if they need help they can always ask a cop.

Now, it's if the police want to talk to them there are rules. The first is don't talk to the police without a lawyer if you are at all uncertain as to what the police want to talk about. Remember that the police are free to lie to you, but that you are not free to lie to them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking to speak to a lawyer. It doesn't imply guilt. A few hours spent sitting in the police station waiting for a lawyer is far preferable to a few days spent sitting in the slammer waiting to clear up a mistake.

After watching the videos, perhaps this should get modified...just get the lawyer.

rolandson wrote: As I understand the videos, it's what you say to the police before they arrest you that may prove to be the problem.

Looking at the scenario you shared; you accepted that you were subjected to a search that there was no legitimate reason for, that is until you gave your consent.

I know a young woman who had car trouble on a rather cold, wet evening. A cop pulled over and offered let her sit in the patrol car until help arrived but the price of admission was the cop had to look in her purse before she could sit in the car...safety you understand...no weapons allowed. The woman consented and the cop found a joint. Thus began a long, expensive trip through the CJ system. I asked why she didn't just go sit in her own car and her reply was striking: "I didn't want to make her (the cop) feel bad."

I have had regular interaction with police for quite a few years after having been the victim of a violent crime. My life was saved by a particularly brave motorcycle cop during that assault. I co-coached my kid's soccer team with a sergeant on our force whom I consider a friend. I have a great deal of respect for police and what they do.

But...there's always a but you know...

Their job description does not include protecting my rights.

My kids have grown beyond soccer, beyond the time where I tell them that if they need help they can always ask a cop.

Now, it's if the police want to talk to them there are rules. The first is don't talk to the police without a lawyer if you are at all uncertain as to what the police want to talk about. Remember that the police are free to lie to you, but that you are not free to lie to them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking to speak to a lawyer. It doesn't imply guilt. A few hours spent sitting in the police station waiting for a lawyer is far preferable to a few days spent sitting in the slammer waiting to clear up a mistake.

After watching the videos, perhaps this should get modified...just get the lawyer.

I hear you and understand what you are saying. The problem with the woman's story in your scenario vs mine is that she actually *had* something illegal (now, we can argue whether it *should* be illegal or not - but that is another story). I have no such things. So, if they want to search my car, go for it. Of course, this applies to this one specific scenario. I do not consider my car 'private'. I drive it on public roads and park it in public places. I put nothing of value or interesting in it. Ask my wife, usually it is just full of trash. But we are nitpicking about this one scenario. If they come to my house and ask to look around, or they are are talking to me for reasons that are unclear then I absolutely agree with you.

I want to make a couple of comments on the videos. First the 8 reasons why you should not talk to the cops:

1. Talking to the cops will not help.
During talking about this one he says to the officer, have you ever approached someone that you had prior evidence of their guilt.... and talking to them got them out of it.

2. If your client is guilty (as many of them are), they may admit it. If they are not guilty they may still confess.

3. Your client may make a mistake and say something that isn't true that will make him appear guilty even if he is innocent.

4. Your client may make a mistake and say something else that will be used against him to make him appear guilty even if he is innocent.

5. The police might misremember his testimony in a way that could be used to incriminate him.

6. If the police don't recall their questions with 100% accuracy, the suspects testimony could be misconstrued in a way that would incriminate him.

7. If the police have any evidence (even if its not reliable) that contradicts your testimony, it can be used to incriminate you.

And then he had examples of people who lied and got caught.

First, don't lie. Second, don't do criminal shit. Third, if you are being interviewed by the police for something other than 'do you know how fast you were going' and you don't have a lawyer, then yes, you are completely asking to be sent up river.

Nothing in the first interview should really be surprising to anyone. The second interview with the officer is more interesting to me. First, he says "people are stupid". What he really means, I hope, is "The people that I have to interview in connection with crimes are stupid.". There is a big difference. He also said he can lie to you during the interview like suggesting that part of your interview is not being taped and is "off the record". I thought that was fairly interesting. I mean, I figured it was true but it was interesting to hear him talk about the ways they convince people to fess up. But the thing he said that was most interesting was "i don't want to bring someone in that is innocent". He made a mention of this a couple of times - suggesting that, if you are innocent, he believes the system will work in your favor. I am not so sure that is always the case but it was interesting to hear.

So... .anyway, those are my rambling stream of consciousness brain dumpings. Let me re-iterate, I agree that you should always get a lawyer anytime a cop talks to you about almost anything.

But I think we can take that too far in a way that will just interfere with their job for no good reason. A quick example, a friend of a friend just committed suicide. One of the last people she called was my friend. The cops came to my friend's house at 2am because they had just found the body and wanted to talk to my friend about their phone call. They were obviously trying to figure out if it was indeed a suicide as it appeared to be. So they came to ask about what they talked about, did she seem upset, did she mention being afraid of anyone, did she have a recent argument with anyone, etc. This was a very stressful situation as they were just told that one of their very best friends of many years had died. They answered the police's questions and the police thanked them and left. Should they have insisted on getting a lawyer first? It would seem so. But if I were the police and I came to someone's house in a situation like this and they wanted a lawyer first, I would be suspicious. I would like to believe that most police officers in most situations really do want to find out the truth and really do want to leave innocent people alone. I have seen a few trials and I know that once you get out there that the attorneys pull out every half-baked idea they can come up with, no matter how ridiculous, so that they 'win'. And I know they pull out everything that you have ever said and tease it apart. And I have seen a couple where I thought the cop was just plain in the wrong. But all the cases I have seen have been people who, even if they weren't guilty of this crime, were obviously engaged in activities that they should not have been. Perhaps the first piece of advice to give to people is really: don't break the law and you won't find yourself in situations where your innocence may be in doubt.

So...... would you guys have all called a lawyer first given the above 2am house call scenario?

mark wrote: So...... would you guys have all called a lawyer first given the above 2am house call scenario?

Probably not, though it is very difficult to place myself in that scenario. I imagine that the manner in which the police made the initial contact might have some influence.

In the experience I briefly alluded to, the assault on me: I, and my wife, freely spoke to the police...even though the assailant claimed that I had instigated the confrontation. Now fortunately an off duty motor cop outside of his jurisdiction just happened to witness this clown attempting to stick a knife in me...the same motor cop who put his absolutely huge mother of a motorcycle between my attacker and myself with the skill of a surgeon.

Did the thought cross my mind that I might be charged? Yep, you bet...as this clown attacked I put my hands out rather forcefully to ward him off. I wasn't gentle about it. From 60 feet away, the cop couldn't see a knife, but sure as hell heard me screaming about it.

While waiting for the proper jurisdiction to show up, I was asked to sit on a curb some distance from the 'other guy' and all kinds of shit ran through my head.

But I did not even consider talking to a lawyer. My excuse? My hand hurt.

When interviewed, I told the police what had happened, as did my spouse and the motor cop. That, and the fact that the assailant kept trying to get at me even though he was in handcuffs pretty much assured that he got the ride in the police car and I got to drive myself to the hospital.

I haven't been in a circumstance where contact with the police has necessarily been a negative. But then I am a white guy living in the suburb. My wife and children are not white and we live in a community that preaches diversity and practices bigotry. Their experience is so completely different than mine that how they approach the routine is incomprehensible to me.

I think that if my son found himself pulled over at 3:AM in a car full of his stuff while coming home from a study session that I would counsel him to ask them to obtain a warrant before they searched his car, to do so politely and to always be respectful...because in my city, the cops like to shoot first, especially if one is not white.

But...

It is easy for me to sit here in front of my computer and pontificate about something I truly know very little...

If the police knock on my door and ask me where I was an hour ago, I think I would be a touch apprehensive. If I witness a hit and run I am more than likely to tell the police what I saw.

But I cannot honestly say how I would respond to a 2:AM notification that someone with whom I had spoken with earlier had been found dead. That is a terrible thing to imagine.

First, and I meant to comment this in my previous ramblings but failed to, I am sorry to hear about your encounter. That must be a difficult thing to go through.

I agree that having the advantage of being a white suburban male must color my ideas about how to deal with the police.

Yes, it really was a terrible thing that my friends went through. And, as you know, the guilt of suicide isn't felt by the deceased - they leave that for their loved ones.

We are really sort of going back and forth about not much because my only point was that its probably not a good thing to dogmatically state 'never talk to the cops'. I think its a situational decision. And I don't like the fact that cops and people view each other as adversaries. A guy a knew used to be an undercover narcotics detective. He eventually quit police work altogether because he said that dealing with street thugs every day had tainted his view of people. He was viewing everyone he met as a criminal and 'bad'. He didn't like what it was doing to him so he got out. I can imagine that most police experience something similar because a large majority of the people they have the most contact with are lying criminals. It must be difficult to not become jaded.

Anyway, this is one of those internet discussions that is long and drawn out but I think that if you and I were sitting down together we would have understood each other's points earlier and said 'yeah, i get what you are saying' about 15 seconds into the discussion. Oh well, sometimes the internet is hard.

rolandson wrote:

mark wrote: So...... would you guys have all called a lawyer first given the above 2am house call scenario?

Probably not, though it is very difficult to place myself in that scenario. I imagine that the manner in which the police made the initial contact might have some influence.

In the experience I briefly alluded to, the assault on me: I, and my wife, freely spoke to the police...even though the assailant claimed that I had instigated the confrontation. Now fortunately an off duty motor cop outside of his jurisdiction just happened to witness this clown attempting to stick a knife in me...the same motor cop who put his absolutely huge mother of a motorcycle between my attacker and myself with the skill of a surgeon.

Did the thought cross my mind that I might be charged? Yep, you bet...as this clown attacked I put my hands out rather forcefully to ward him off. I wasn't gentle about it. From 60 feet away, the cop couldn't see a knife, but sure as hell heard me screaming about it.

While waiting for the proper jurisdiction to show up, I was asked to sit on a curb some distance from the 'other guy' and all kinds of shit ran through my head.

But I did not even consider talking to a lawyer. My excuse? My hand hurt.

When interviewed, I told the police what had happened, as did my spouse and the motor cop. That, and the fact that the assailant kept trying to get at me even though he was in handcuffs pretty much assured that he got the ride in the police car and I got to drive myself to the hospital.

I haven't been in a circumstance where contact with the police has necessarily been a negative. But then I am a white guy living in the suburb. My wife and children are not white and we live in a community that preaches diversity and practices bigotry. Their experience is so completely different than mine that how they approach the routine is incomprehensible to me.

I think that if my son found himself pulled over at 3:AM in a car full of his stuff while coming home from a study session that I would counsel him to ask them to obtain a warrant before they searched his car, to do so politely and to always be respectful...because in my city, the cops like to shoot first, especially if one is not white.

But...

It is easy for me to sit here in front of my computer and pontificate about something I truly know very little...

If the police knock on my door and ask me where I was an hour ago, I think I would be a touch apprehensive. If I witness a hit and run I am more than likely to tell the police what I saw.

But I cannot honestly say how I would respond to a 2:AM notification that someone with whom I had spoken with earlier had been found dead. That is a terrible thing to imagine.

mark wrote: We are really sort of going back and forth about not much because my only point was that its probably not a good thing to dogmatically state 'never talk to the cops'. I think its a situational decision.

Ok... I agree that it is a situational decision. If I know a situation is developing where someone is in imminent danger, I'll talk to the cops.

But... we still disagree as to where the line stands. I'm sorry your friend had to experience their friend's suicide. I've had family members commit suicide. It is devastating when it happens. I was lucky that I did not have to talk to the police. I can see why your friend would have talked to the police. In the same situation, I might have done exactly the same thing. I still think it was not the safest course of action. Whatever the police may have said, your friend was probably right at the top of the list of "if it turns out that this is not a suicide, then who murdered this person?" There's also the risk of being seen as having criminally assisted the suicide. Then, even if the police finds nothing criminal, there's the risk that someone who had a stake in the deceased's life would launch a civil suit in which police evidence could be used.

mark wrote: And I don't like the fact that cops and people view each other as adversaries.

I got a speeding ticket, defended myself in court, lost and on my way out I saw the cop who gave me the ticket. I shook his hand and told him that I don't have anything against him personally but that I had to defend myself.

I don't like the adversarial aspect either but that's the way the system works. Some cops are crooks. Some are not. As for those who are not crooks, which I like to think is the majority of cops, I don't think that they get up in the morning thinking "I'm gonna put some innocent person in jail today." But the system works in a certain way. The police department wants to show that they are doing their work, which means convicting people, which means brining people to court. Ah well, the suspects may be found not guilty, but that's not the cops' fault. You know... the jury was just too obtuse or there was some "technicality" or something. But heck, when the politicians want to see that the cops are doing their work, it's all there in the statistics! The cops did bring those criminals to justice! Oops.... sorry, not "criminals" but "suspects." If the prosecution can't make a case, well, that's not the cops' fault.

As for searches and being innocent... Go to range. Forget to remove range badge. Get in minor fender bender. Cop comes over to "help." Cop sees range badge. Cops asks to search. Poor guy accepts, because he's innocent, right? Cops sees guns in trunk and confiscates guns. This really happened. The cop thought a law was broken but after he got a chance to read the actual text of the law no charges were pressed because no law was broken! Ok, no one went to jail but now the guy has to get the state police to return his guns to him. Bonus nonsense: any gun seized for any reason becomes a "crime gun" in statistics!