I see these magazine clips in pictures of Israel. I've never seen clips like these-- what's the advantage of having them sideways?

I don't really like clipping magazines together-- it destroys any balance left in the weapon. But I've never seen clips like these.

https://imgur.com/gallery/odGjI

Welcome to “Israeli Carry”—carrying an unloaded weapon.

That's a mag block; basically a dummy magazine that (I believe) prevents the bolt from being closed so the weapon can be verified as safe at a glance; it looks like it holds a loaded magazine to be used if given the time and opportunity, when needed.

The thought process behind Israeli carry boils down to they basically don’t trust their people to be safe with their weapons.

PerfectTommy wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 pm
The thought process behind Israeli carry boils down to they basically don’t trust their people to be safe with their weapons.

Don't, or do trust their people?

I figured that was a mag block, but had the mag instantly available.

It’s procedure. They must carry a loaded magazine, but for safety reason the magazine can’t be loaded into the gun during casual carry. The rule for leaving the rifle at home is also quite strict. They must separate the rifle, the bolt carrier, and the mag then store in 3 different places.

Israel depends on conscription, so almost all adults are expected to serve at some point. Most of them have 0 interest in guns, and half of them have below average intelligence. Near draconian procedures are necessary to keep everybody safe.

Was that one lady ordering something at the bar?? I suppose one drink while open carrying can't hurt...

YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:14 pm

PerfectTommy wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 pm
The thought process behind Israeli carry boils down to they basically don’t trust their people to be safe with their weapons.

Don't, or do trust their people?

I figured that was a mag block, but had the mag instantly available.

“Instantly” is a matter of perspective, I suppose.

My carry weapon is ready the instant it leaves the holster; I don’t have to fumble around trying to pull out the mag block, rotate it around (or possibly remove it? Trying to figure out exactly how those devices work), reinsert the mag, close/charge bolt...that’s an eternity if you need the weapon NOW.

A friend took a defensive handgun class from a trainer who was touted as a “top tier” guy from Israel; would not hear of anyone in his class carrying with a loaded chamber. The standard was draw, charge the pistol, then shoot. Thought Americans were crazy carrying loaded pistols.

PerfectTommy wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:59 am

YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:14 pm

PerfectTommy wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 pm
The thought process behind Israeli carry boils down to they basically don’t trust their people to be safe with their weapons.

Don't, or do trust their people?

I figured that was a mag block, but had the mag instantly available.

“Instantly” is a matter of perspective, I suppose.

My carry weapon is ready the instant it leaves the holster; I don’t have to fumble around trying to pull out the mag block, rotate it around (or possibly remove it? Trying to figure out exactly how those devices work), reinsert the mag, close/charge bolt...that’s an eternity if you need the weapon NOW.

A friend took a defensive handgun class from a trainer who was touted as a “top tier” guy from Israel; would not hear of anyone in his class carrying with a loaded chamber. The standard was draw, charge the pistol, then shoot. Thought Americans were crazy carrying loaded pistols.

Y'know, if a denizen of one of the most militarized societies on the planet, with one of the deadliest and best-trained armies and air force thinks that something that ordinary Americans do when carrying weapons is just plain NUTZ, then perhaps a reality check is in order. Maybe he knows something we don't. Remember the FBI agent showing off on a disco floor, did a back flip that had his side arm fall out and discharge, wounding someone?

I don't claim expertise but it strikes me that Israel has found a working balance between safety and readiness.

Context matters. Non-police civilians who carry guns in America do it because they want to, they have the option to not carry a gun. Most of these who carry on a daily basis are gun enthusiasts, who spend time and money to be safe and proficient.

An Israeli soldier on leave is required to bring her rifle, and she often doesn’t have a secure place to store it. Most of them don’t care about guns, it’s just another piece of gear that the government makes them carry.

I personally carry a pistol with a loaded chamber without any manual safety. The holster is the safety, as I’m a full on gun nut. However, I’d be a bit uncomfortable to let my wife carry it this way, because she doesn’t care about guns and is not willing to spend much time training. Carrying with an empty chamber makes sense for her, in occasions where she has to do it.

The more I think about it, the more I like Israeli carry. Over here the chance of me needing to instantly draw and shoot within 1.5 seconds is extremely rare. About 94% of police officers retired without ever firing their gun. The number for civilian gun carriers should be north of 99%. The risk of negligent discharge is far greater than the risk of being too slow in a draw.

This is an interesting discussion on perspectives regarding firearms in society. Israelis think Americans are nuts to carry loaded guns. Americans think Israelis are nuts for carrying rifles when half-naked at the beach. Japanese think Israelis look sexy when carrying rifles half-naked at the beach. I mean where do we find consensus here?

I agree with YT and Stiff. Israeli-carry would certainly help to limit the apparently unique American condition of Glock Leg.

Bisbee wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:16 pm This is an interesting discussion on perspectives regarding firearms in society. Israelis think Americans are nuts to carry loaded guns. Americans think Israelis are nuts for carrying rifles when half-naked at the beach. Japanese think Israelis look sexy when carrying rifles half-naked at the beach. I mean where do we find consensus here?

I agree with YT and Stiff. Israeli-carry would certainly help to limit the apparently unique American condition of Glock Leg.

Since “glock leg” seems to occur to FBI agents and police officers sitting in the can, perhaps our law enforcement officers shouldn’t carry loaded weapons.

I tend towards the opinion that the risk of accidental discharge is orders of magnitude greater than the likelihood that a civilian carrying concealed would ever need to draw in a defensive context. The odds are even lower that the difference in timing between charging and having one hot in the chamber is life or death. LEOs are a different story and I can see how they would teach the way they're trained. But consistency is important. If you're gonna carry, pick a condition, and stick with it.

I don't carry. I don't have anything against it or anything. Just seems like the odds of me needing a gun for defense is similar to getting struck by lightning and I don't prepare for that. (Also, it would be a Blackhawk with a 6.5 inch barrel or a full size 1911, so there's that.) I've probably just cursed myself and will get mugged or struck by lightning in the next week.

cooper wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:18 pm I don't carry. I don't have anything against it or anything. Just seems like the odds of me needing a gun for defense is similar to getting struck by lightning and I don't prepare for that. (Also, it would be a Blackhawk with a 6.5 inch barrel or a full size 1911, so there's that.)

I just got a 6.5" Taurus Tracker...waiting to shoot it.

I've probably just cursed myself and will get mugged or struck by lightning in the next week.

YankeeTarheel wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:39 pm

cooper wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:18 pm I don't carry. I don't have anything against it or anything. Just seems like the odds of me needing a gun for defense is similar to getting struck by lightning and I don't prepare for that. (Also, it would be a Blackhawk with a 6.5 inch barrel or a full size 1911, so there's that.)

I just got a 6.5" Taurus Tracker...waiting to shoot it.

I've probably just cursed myself and will get mugged or struck by lightning in the next week.

struck by lightning.JPG

LOL--that'll be me. Can't wait to hear about the Taurus.

cooper wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:43 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:39 pm

cooper wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:18 pm I don't carry. I don't have anything against it or anything. Just seems like the odds of me needing a gun for defense is similar to getting struck by lightning and I don't prepare for that. (Also, it would be a Blackhawk with a 6.5 inch barrel or a full size 1911, so there's that.)

I just got a 6.5" Taurus Tracker...waiting to shoot it.

I've probably just cursed myself and will get mugged or struck by lightning in the next week.

struck by lightning.JPG

LOL--that'll be me. Can't wait to hear about the Taurus.

Can't wait to shoot it, shooting .357 mag, .38 special, and 9mm. Plus I want to see if the vertical muzzle ports DO reduce barrel rise, BUT---haven't been to a range in over a YEAR, dammit!