sikacz wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:09 am I don’t doubt that hollow points are an excellent choice. I think from reading that perhaps a SWC is also not a bad choice if you shoot it with more accuracy. From the article:

Col. Fackler’s observation, and one with which my friend “ER Doc” agrees, is that the hollowpoint .38 Special is not the “magic bullet.” When a bullet expands in the classic mushroom fashion, it reduces penetration. The best JHP defense loads such as Speer Gold Dot meet FBI penetration criteria. Not all JHPs do.

We believe that maximum frontal area and tissue crush, combined with deep penetration adequate to defeat reasonable cover (a defensively positioned arm or heavy clothing), which can still penetrate the breastbone and get through ribs into vital organs, is important. Particularly in calibers of “marginal” energy, (200 ft-lbs or less) it is important to have the maximum meplat diameter (frontal area) consistent with reliable feeding. The wadcutter in a revolver makes the most of this.
You also need adequate sectional density to ensure through and through penetration. Our reasoning is that if the FBI considers 14 inches of gelatin penetration adequate, we’d like 20+. Being able to shoot through both shoulders of a deer and exiting is desired.

Yes, the wadcutter is a compromise, but I would rather use a wadcutter handload of proven reliability on groundhogs, feral dogs (or putting down the occasional stock), than a jacketed hollowpoint which may not go through a pit bull’s skull. Which begs the question: why don’t the manufacturers produce a full charge wadcutter like they used to (before WWII)?

Just thinking it’s an option and especially if one could produce the full charge Wadcutter.

You also mentioned the SWC. MiHec makes moulds that can cast hollow-point SWC's. They do a good job, too.

The article conflates several different goals here. If I'm going after groundhogs, I'm probably not going to use a .38 Special, but rather a scoped rifle in .22LR. Then they mention a deer. For a deer, if I'm going to be hunting with a .38 Special-family cartridge and load, it'll be a .357 Magnum with the 158gr JSP (jacketed soft point) or one of my BHN 12 LSWC-HP's (also 158gr), and I'll be doing it with the 16" bbl lever rifle, not a handgun. Feral dogs, that's a carry situation, and I'm probably going to be carrying .357 Magnum anyway, and that *will* go through a pit bull's skull at any responsible handgun range. But I'll be aiming for the body anyway, since that's a larger target, if I have to put down an attacking feral dog or other animal. It's a shame that the article helps to demonize the pit bull breed, given that it's one of the very best family dogs ever developed. It used to be that half of all household dogs were American Pit Bull Terriers (e. g. "Pal" from Our Gang/The Little Rascals).

It really depends on what you're doing. Were the wadcutter sat out like most other types of bullets are, and you (carefully, as always) work up a load for them according to the books using data (including OAL) for that bullet weight or slightly larger, then you should be safe.

But also remember, the 125gr JHP factory .357 Magnum loads have been well-regarded man-stoppers for many decades, and with good reason.

CowboyT wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:30 pm

sikacz wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:09 am I don’t doubt that hollow points are an excellent choice. I think from reading that perhaps a SWC is also not a bad choice if you shoot it with more accuracy. From the article:

Col. Fackler’s observation, and one with which my friend “ER Doc” agrees, is that the hollowpoint .38 Special is not the “magic bullet.” When a bullet expands in the classic mushroom fashion, it reduces penetration. The best JHP defense loads such as Speer Gold Dot meet FBI penetration criteria. Not all JHPs do.

We believe that maximum frontal area and tissue crush, combined with deep penetration adequate to defeat reasonable cover (a defensively positioned arm or heavy clothing), which can still penetrate the breastbone and get through ribs into vital organs, is important. Particularly in calibers of “marginal” energy, (200 ft-lbs or less) it is important to have the maximum meplat diameter (frontal area) consistent with reliable feeding. The wadcutter in a revolver makes the most of this.
You also need adequate sectional density to ensure through and through penetration. Our reasoning is that if the FBI considers 14 inches of gelatin penetration adequate, we’d like 20+. Being able to shoot through both shoulders of a deer and exiting is desired.

Yes, the wadcutter is a compromise, but I would rather use a wadcutter handload of proven reliability on groundhogs, feral dogs (or putting down the occasional stock), than a jacketed hollowpoint which may not go through a pit bull’s skull. Which begs the question: why don’t the manufacturers produce a full charge wadcutter like they used to (before WWII)?

Just thinking it’s an option and especially if one could produce the full charge Wadcutter.

You also mentioned the SWC. MiHec makes moulds that can cast hollow-point SWC's. They do a good job, too.

The article conflates several different goals here. If I'm going after groundhogs, I'm probably not going to use a .38 Special, but rather a scoped rifle in .22LR. Then they mention a deer. For a deer, if I'm going to be hunting with a .38 Special-family cartridge and load, it'll be a .357 Magnum with the 158gr JSP (jacketed soft point) or one of my BHN 12 LSWC-HP's (also 158gr), and I'll be doing it with the 16" bbl lever rifle, not a handgun. Feral dogs, that's a carry situation, and I'm probably going to be carrying .357 Magnum anyway, and that *will* go through a pit bull's skull at any responsible handgun range. But I'll be aiming for the body anyway, since that's a larger target, if I have to put down an attacking feral dog or other animal. It's a shame that the article helps to demonize the pit bull breed, given that it's one of the very best family dogs ever developed. It used to be that half of all household dogs were American Pit Bull Terriers (e. g. "Pal" from Our Gang/The Little Rascals).

It really depends on what you're doing. Were the wadcutter sat out like most other types of bullets are, and you (carefully, as always) work up a load for them according to the books using data (including OAL) for that bullet weight or slightly larger, then you should be safe.

But also remember, the 125gr JHP factory .357 Magnum loads have been well-regarded man-stoppers for many decades, and with good reason.

You’re getting me deeper down a rabbit hole. I’m making a list of items for casting! LoL.

Gun Sam to the rescue. I think this is the first 32 full wadcutter gel test video on YouTube. Fiocchi is the slowest load I’m aware of and it still exceeds 12”. The recoil is a good bit more than 22lr or 22 mag but a fraction of 38 special.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rNne4RfvO94

Looking at this thread again after a couple years is interesting.

Looking at my own comment early in the thread suggests that I've learned a little bit since I posted that some three years ago.

Having recently bought a .32 H&R Magnum snubbie, to be more concealable in warm-weather clothing, after only carrying 9mm Semi-auto pistols for a few years, I'm revisiting the topic for myself.

In the years since there had been activity on this thread, I've seen conflicting opinions and data regarding whether JHP rounds would have significant expansion at the muzzle velocities likely for my caliber and short barrel. I've seen a range of opinions on whether SWC or WC would work better than LRN and why.

Heck, I've even learned what those acronyms mean in this context!

CowboyT has, on another thread, encouraged me to consider reloading, and I'm giving it some thought. Saving my wheelgun brass in case I go that route, even though I've heard horror stories about reloaded ammo (a topic for some other thread, of course). If I get into reloading, I'm thinking that a supply of SWC projectiles might serve well for both range and SD rounds, simplifying inventory.

Cast SWC's are very inexpensive, and they serve all practice needs well. Yes, listen to CT and consider reloading. I found it very cool to be able to make bullets that were accurate, more so than commercial ammo. More consistent is the key. Go for it.

CDF

In the very unlikely event I found myself in a self defense situation, I'd want factory ammo, not reloads. Less for the popo to question.

What's a "popo", and why is it questionable?

I have done quite a bit of casting, till my melter needed it's 4th or 5th element, and was just falling apart anyway. Fun.

wooglin wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:19 pm In the very unlikely event I found myself in a self defense situation, I'd want factory ammo, not reloads. Less for the popo to question.

This is a very common assumption. I find nothing wrong with it. To me, reloading is best for recreational shooting. I found it really fun to "work up a load" that gave me tight groups. Plus, cost saving. But my defense gun has factory ammo in it (Ruger GP100 .357mag). Did I mention hella cheaper for practice? Frequent practice cements muscle memory. Muscle memory cares not whether it's shooting inexpensive practice ammo or legally defensive commercial ammo.

Question everything. Which is a very Renaissance concept. And ale. Ale is Renaissance.

CDF

Thanks, CDF. Reloading is not only a fun pastime and hobby, it's also quite an economically beneficial one. So is casting. This is especially true for handgun ammo.

I have a few loads in .38/357. Two of them closely replicate factory recoil and ballistics, for obvious practice reasons. Another one, a .38 Special load, is designed for low recoil, which makes regular marksmanship practice with an S&W J-frame Airweight quite tolerable. It duplicates the in-flight ballistics of most factory .38 Special loads, at least within 25 yards (75 ft).

For .44 Special-type loads, I tend to load them a bit warmer, like the old Sierra manuals say, because all my .44 firearms are .44 Magnum-rated, so it's perfectly safe. These somewhat warmer loads have shown to shoot more precisely in my guns, and that's why I do this. They're still nowhere close to full-house .44 Magnum-strength, and thus they're quite easy shooters.

For .45 ACP, it's max loads, per Lyman's 49th (and 51st), correlated with Lee's Modern Reloading, 2nd Edition. In any semi-auto pistol, the major concern is reliable cycling of the action. Factory loads seem to be loaded to max specs, if the Chrony is anything to go by. I have two loads in this chambering, one using a 200gr LRNFP, and another using a 230gr Berry's Plated RN. The latter also works well with 230gr Speer Gold Dots; same velocity.

For practice ammo, reloading is WONDERFUL. The ability to practice with especially revolver cartridges, on the cheap, means your marksmanship stays at a good level.

If my videos help people, well, that's why they're up there. That's the point, for them to be viewed and used. The more people reload, far as I'm concerned, the better. And if I can help anyone with advice to get started, I'm glad to do so.

One other thing. Last year, I ended up with a bunch of 148gr wadcutters for .38 Special due to the death of an ol' reloader. I now have a loading for that, too. It's a sweet little target loading that cuts nice, clean holes in the paper targets. The lead is a bit hard for my taste, so I give 'em a coating of Liquid Alox/Xlox to help keep the barrels lead-free. That does seem to do the trick.

Wadcutters are great for target practice, folks. I am now convinced of this, having shot some.

For reloading, I've found semi autos to be very sensitive to loads when compared to revolvers. Duh, I know. I really have to duplicate factory loads when loading for semi's, just to everything operates smoothly. A reloader should learn using revolvers. At least the always go "bang" and set up the next shot. He he.

CDF

papajim2jordan wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:36 pm What's a "popo", and why is it questionable?

I have done quite a bit of casting, till my melter needed it's 4th or 5th element, and was just falling apart anyway. Fun.

Popo = Police

There is a common thought that if involved in a self defense shooting that results in a fatality and if the ammunition is not factory it may be construed by the Police and prosecutors that one has loaded especially deadly ammunition on purpose thus proving the shooter is guilty of pushing to use deadly force. I carry factory ammunition in my SD guns as I was advised to do this by numerous trainers, police officers (a bunch in my family) and attorneys.

I have not trained with anything other than my handloads for decades now. I only shoot factory ammunition to proof the ammunition I carry.

VooDoo

Thanks. I've heard of the ammo/self-defense thing. Cops, fuzz or where bacon comes from, but popo? Or is it rendered po-po? Several pronunciations in my head and they all seem silly. I might be screwed as I don't think I have any factory loads.

papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:48 pm Thanks. I've heard of the ammo/self-defense thing. Cops, fuzz or where bacon comes from, but popo? Or is it rendered po-po? Several pronunciations in my head and they all seem silly. I might be screwed as I don't think I have any factory loads.

Po-po (pronounced with long-ish o) seems to me to have originated in Black vernacular within the last forty years, shorthand for "police" repeated for emphasis. In the protest spaces during summer of 2020 (among other places I've been) I've also heard "Five-O," a reference to the old Jack Lord television series set in Hawaii, and "12," referring to the "Adam 12" television series.

Most are meant to be derisive or at least unflattering, and certainly informative in a street alert way ("Be cool! 12 comin'!"). A common street chant during the protests against police violence on friends and neighbors was for people to start counting from one, increasing in volume, until, once having said eleven, the crowd screams "FUCK TWELVE!"

I would think it difficult for a prosecutor to find conclusive evidence of hand-loaded ammo in self-defense situations, unless the person defending themselves against attackers left live rounds in their firearm. Coincidentally, I remember a hopefully-apocryphal story about a cop who had shot a suspect nine times being asked why that many times, with the cop responding, "I didn't have ten bullets." (the number of rounds in the story varied depending on who told it, how much they knew about firearms issued to local-to-them cops, etc., which is why I think the story was apocryphal, if plausible) The lesson? I don't know, and if I did, I would probably be best served to not say so online.

Regarding reloading, what level of experience do you feel is needed to rely on reloads in a practical way? How tight are the measurement tolerances of the chemical proportions and physical assembly? And are low tech tools sufficient?

Of course there are tons of youtube vids. But you first get yourself a manual and read through the instructional sections. My Speer No.13 is pretty shop worn, but it still reads.

Even with zero experience, you'll have to load your first round sooner or later. It's a lot of fun and gets relaxing when you have confidence.

There's no shortage of info on how-to. The expertise is in the books/manuals/components/tools. No more difficult than baking a loaf of bread. Reloading is not for dolts, but then neither are guns. Low tech is not the same as low quality. Cheap tools, no matter what the purpose, are always more expensive. Lee loaders are an excellent way to start. I still use them decades later.

https://leeprecision.com/classic-lee-loaders

I'm still with a single stage press after all these years. Orange Crusher. Lyman.

CDF

wretchedweaponry wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:19 pm Regarding reloading, what level of experience do you feel is needed to rely on reloads in a practical way? How tight are the measurement tolerances of the chemical proportions and physical assembly? And are low tech tools sufficient?

CDFingers wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:52 pm Of course there are tons of youtube vids. But you first get yourself a manual and read through the instructional sections. My Speer No.13 is pretty shop worn, but it still reads.

Even with zero experience, you'll have to load your first round sooner or later. It's a lot of fun and gets relaxing when you have confidence.

Indeed. Reloading is hardly rocket science. It does require attention to detail, but it can be mastered fairly readily by anybody with the desire to do so.

I started hosting my reloading videos on my own Web site after the YouTubers kept taking several of my videos down for "violation of terms of service". Turns out that their "terms of service" ban videos that show how to make your own ammunition. Yep, sad, but true.

CDFingers wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:23 pm For reloading, I've found semi autos to be very sensitive to loads when compared to revolvers. Duh, I know. I really have to duplicate factory loads when loading for semi's, just to everything operates smoothly. A reloader should learn using revolvers. At least the always go "bang" and set up the next shot. He he.

CDF

That is so true. This is one reason why I like reloading for .38 Special so much. You can make loads from "mild" to "wild", and with the exception of a squib load, they always go bang. That, and .38 Special components are readily available and relatively inexpensive. Light .38 Special loads will make cases last almost forever, it seems. While .44 Special and (standard) .45 Colt components cost a bit more, the load flexibility is the same. That, and you don't have to go chasing your brass all over the place. :-)

My loads for the semi-autos tend to be toward the max loads in the book. This is for reliable functioning in any firearm so chambered. Let's take .45 ACP as an example. My rounds need to function in any 1911 of any frame size or age, any Glock type pistol, any Springfield XD-s or other "pocket .45", and so on. For that reason, the cast bullet mould that I chose is a LRNFP (Lead Round Nose Flat Point), with a meplat that is good-sized, but still allows reliable feeding. It doubles as a light-load .45 Colt bullet, too. Jacketed loads get Berry's or Rainier's plated round-nose (RN), because 1911's were originally designed to shoot that bullet profile. It's exceedingly rare, with my loads, that I have a failure to feed, and that's always been because the gun needed maintenance.

Plus, hand loading, especially on a single stage press, is good discipline for the Mind, Body, and Spirit. I recently gave my nephew 200 rounds of my 5.56 Home Brew for testing/plinking, target shooting. He took the liberty (engineer) of measuring and examining the rounds I sent him before shooting them. His comments to me were that the precision in terms of weights, OAL, muzzle velocity, and accuracy (because of the precision and consistency) literally blew anything he had shot in terms of match quality ammunition out of the water. My handloads generally make even the best factory match ammunition look like a second best effort. He's spoiled and I told him I'd teach him how I do it when we get the time. We'll start by loading .38 Special and go from there because, as already stated by others, revolver ammunition is more forgiving and easier to get great results with right off the bat.

6.5 Creedmoor with 147 gr. Hornady ELD Match bullets and once fired brass.


"Works of art and beauty" were his words and perspective. And it's because each case is measured and trimmed by hand and all the bullet weights are sorted and each powder charge is weighed one at a time on a precision jewelers digital scale. All the primers are hand seated one at a time....every round has been fussed over and inspected weighed and measured multiple times and sorted into grades or lots of consistency.

I find hand loading at this level to be a Spiritual endeavor and whenever I'm feeling "less than OK" I start with processing brass cases with resizing, depriming, trimming, and weighing and by the end of 100 cases I'm focused and centered again. Building precision ammunition, one round at a time, is a good thing for me - maybe not for people who are needing to produce rounds for competition and have limited time resources etc. but for me handloading for precision whether for handguns or for precision target rifles has been a passion with me for decades.

Load 'em all - let Gaad sort 'em out.

VooDoo

Oh, good post, VooDoo. It's amazing how much accuracy is affected by OAL (over all length). The shorter the length, the higher the pressure. Higher pressure means higher velocity in general. But there is a sweet spot with every load and in every gun that differs from every other load in every other gun. So you have to work your load for your gun. You can start with stuff you read, but you have to experiment and get data until you get that just exactly perfect load.

Now, with respect to semi autos, OAL could have quite an effect on whether it feeds well. So we have to experiment. This is a good thing.

CDF

Reportedly, there was a semi-auto pistol which could feed full-wadcutter rounds. I forget which one it was, but I was mightily surprised.

For my bolt-gun rounds, I load them with a similar precision level that Vodoundavinci does. In my case, it's generally .308 Win. My match ammo is good stuff. Handgun rounds, by contrast, I process those quickly because handguns generally aren't long-range precision shooters. The longest I likely will ever shoot a handgun is 50 yards; there's a range that a friend goes to that has a 50-yard handgun range, and it's really cool. Also, one of the NRA police competitions with .38 Special used to be at that distance, back when the cops typically carried .38's. If I can hit the 12" steel gong at 50 yards, I'm doing pretty well.

Smith $ Wesson made a target pistol just for the occasion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kqf3DX72uw

Just watched the video. Wow...a purpose-built semi-auto target/competition pistol, designed to shoot specifically wadcutter loads? That's really cool!