Re: Wadcutters?
26Fortunately (unfortunately?) I don't own a semi-auto chambered in 357mag, so I will keep my wadcutters to my revolver.
Re: Wadcutters?
27Good idea. Revolvers tend to be more forgiving in regard to the shape of the bullet or type.keenanmj85 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:42 pm Fortunately (unfortunately?) I don't own a semi-auto chambered in 357mag, so I will keep my wadcutters to my revolver.
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
28Some interesting reading on Wadcutters by Ed Harris and presented on Grant Cunningham’s page.
https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11 ... wadcutter/
Grant Cunningham was an instructor at the last annual meeting in California a few years back.
https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11 ... wadcutter/
Grant Cunningham was an instructor at the last annual meeting in California a few years back.
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
29Low velocity 32 wads are a joy to shoot out of my 327 LCR and I would still trust them to get the job done better than LRN or FMJ because they cause more damage. HPs that go fast enough to expand shot from short barrel revolvers have brutal recoil and that will slow you down in a defensive situation where milliseconds count. I think a small 9mm would be easier to control if you absolutely must have HPs.
Re: Wadcutters?
30Wadcutters - no way. Semi-wadcutters have to be loaded to very precise tolerance to case mouth to feed ‘reliably’ in semi-autos. I ended up shooting all my 200gr. semi wadcutters I purchased for 1911, in my Ruger Blackhawk. I wouldn’t buy any type of wad cutters at all for a semi-auto. They do punch nice holes for a wheel gun though.
Re: Wadcutters?
31Do not use wadcutter for defense, especially a .32, especially a long when you could use a H&R Mag.
My wife's carry is a S&W airweight 32 H&R Mag. Recoil is very low, even with full power loads.
There is no evidence that wadcutter somehow magically grab better than other rounds, they are soft lead and the design is for target shooters to cut a cleaner hole for better scores.
Federal makes defensive loads.
My wife's carry is a S&W airweight 32 H&R Mag. Recoil is very low, even with full power loads.
There is no evidence that wadcutter somehow magically grab better than other rounds, they are soft lead and the design is for target shooters to cut a cleaner hole for better scores.
Federal makes defensive loads.
Old School
The best upgrade for you firearm is always instruction and practice.
The best upgrade for you firearm is always instruction and practice.
Re: Wadcutters?
32I see no benefit in using wadcutters for self-defense when we have hollow-points. And remember, I'm not just talking about jacketed hollow points; I'm talking about the ability to cast your own hollow points with, say, a MiHec mould. Miha Prevec's moulds are good stuff, and they drop good HP bullets. Therefore, there's no need at all to settle for wadcutters for self-defense.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
Re: Wadcutters?
33Considering the Ed Harris article, I’d be curious to try to make the rounds described and test some. I don’t believe everything I read on the internet, but there’s credibility behind the information. Officers wouldn’t have used them for no reason. That doesn’t mean new ammo isn’t good to use as well. I would certainly like to see some side by side testing.
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
34I know police officers that still carry wheelguns, and who carried wheelguns up to the late 1990's when semi-auto 9mm's were coming into fashion. They competed at ranges with wadcutters. They loaded JHP's for duty, though. The Washington, DC Special Police were carrying S&W Model 64's in .38 Special in 2015. I'd made friends with a few back then. We got to talking shop about marksmanship, and their standard duty ammo was .38 Sopl +P JHP's.
Can wadcutters hurt assailants? Sure, any bullet can. A soft wadcutter of, say, BHN 6 or 8 can expand some even at .38 Special velocities. But I'd rather have a hollow-point, because they expand considerably better and thus deposit more energy in the assailant.
Can wadcutters hurt assailants? Sure, any bullet can. A soft wadcutter of, say, BHN 6 or 8 can expand some even at .38 Special velocities. But I'd rather have a hollow-point, because they expand considerably better and thus deposit more energy in the assailant.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
Re: Wadcutters?
35I don’t doubt that hollow points are an excellent choice. I think from reading that perhaps a SWC is also not a bad choice if you shoot it with more accuracy. From the article:
Just thinking it’s an option and especially if one could produce the full charge Wadcutter.Col. Fackler’s observation, and one with which my friend “ER Doc” agrees, is that the hollowpoint .38 Special is not the “magic bullet.” When a bullet expands in the classic mushroom fashion, it reduces penetration. The best JHP defense loads such as Speer Gold Dot meet FBI penetration criteria. Not all JHPs do.
We believe that maximum frontal area and tissue crush, combined with deep penetration adequate to defeat reasonable cover (a defensively positioned arm or heavy clothing), which can still penetrate the breastbone and get through ribs into vital organs, is important. Particularly in calibers of “marginal” energy, (200 ft-lbs or less) it is important to have the maximum meplat diameter (frontal area) consistent with reliable feeding. The wadcutter in a revolver makes the most of this.
You also need adequate sectional density to ensure through and through penetration. Our reasoning is that if the FBI considers 14 inches of gelatin penetration adequate, we’d like 20+. Being able to shoot through both shoulders of a deer and exiting is desired.
Yes, the wadcutter is a compromise, but I would rather use a wadcutter handload of proven reliability on groundhogs, feral dogs (or putting down the occasional stock), than a jacketed hollowpoint which may not go through a pit bull’s skull. Which begs the question: why don’t the manufacturers produce a full charge wadcutter like they used to (before WWII)?
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
36It’s not magic, they just crush more tissue and less recoil means you are back on target faster for your next shot. But they do need enough velocity to penetrate and not that much gel testing has been performed by anyone.Oldschool wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:40 pm Do not use wadcutter for defense, especially a .32, especially a long when you could use a H&R Mag.
My wife's carry is a S&W airweight 32 H&R Mag. Recoil is very low, even with full power loads.
There is no evidence that wadcutter somehow magically grab better than other rounds, they are soft lead and the design is for target shooters to cut a cleaner hole for better scores.
Federal makes defensive loads.
Re: Wadcutters?
37Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
Resign obsolete revolvers and cartridges to secondary use, such as target and hunting. Pick something more appropriate for self defense. I can't believe I even have to say this.
Resign obsolete revolvers and cartridges to secondary use, such as target and hunting. Pick something more appropriate for self defense. I can't believe I even have to say this.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Wadcutters?
38If she can hit a target with it, it’s appropriate. Revolvers are far from “obsolete”. We’re not having the “only this caliber and this gun” is appropriate for self-defense discussion are we? It’s choice and compromise always regardless of the gun or caliber.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
Resign obsolete revolvers and cartridges to secondary use, such as target and hunting. Pick something more appropriate for self defense. I can't believe I even have to say this.
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
39Low recoil, better than 22lr, more reliable than 22lr.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
Re: Wadcutters?
40Faster on target is what matters and low recoil gets you there quicker. My grandad carried a 25acp after WW2, working as a night watchman. I had asked my dad why only a 25acp, and he said my grandad would say it had better reach than an arm and a fist. Since he knew guns, I’ll take his word for it. Carry what you like, it’s better than a stick.UncleJon wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:45 pmLow recoil, better than 22lr, more reliable than 22lr.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
41If you want low recoil, there a more modern and better options than a cartridge that has been obsolete for nearly a century.UncleJon wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:45 pmLow recoil, better than 22lr, more reliable than 22lr.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”
Re: Wadcutters?
42FrontSight wrote:If you want low recoil, there a more modern and better options than a cartridge that has been obsolete for nearly a century.UncleJon wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:45 pmLow recoil, better than 22lr, more reliable than 22lr.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: Wadcutters?
43Of course there are other options, but revolvers have benefits in size and function that cannot be replicated by a semi-automatic. I’d say since major gun manufacturers like Smith & Wesson have current model revolvers for self defense in that round, I wouldn’t call it obsolete. The round like other rounds as noted, like 9mm Luger have a long history. Age doesn’t make something obsolete. There’s still demand for small frame revolvers for self defense, that’s not going away.
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.
Re: Wadcutters?
44Yes 32acp has better penetration but not with HPs and it’s not good for revolvers. There are 2 short barrel HP loads for 22mag that do pretty good in gel but then you are dealing with a very heavy trigger pull and light strikes are fairly common. 32H&R mag has a lot more recoil than any of these rounds but not enough velocity to expand HPs.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:03 pmIf you want low recoil, there a more modern and better options than a cartridge that has been obsolete for nearly a century.UncleJon wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:45 pmLow recoil, better than 22lr, more reliable than 22lr.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
Re: Wadcutters?
46Quite a few reasons personally.FrontSight wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:34 pm Why would anyone be using a .32 Long for self defense? That just doesn't seem like a good idea at all. It's nearly 2022, not 1922 people.
Resign obsolete revolvers and cartridges to secondary use, such as target and hunting. Pick something more appropriate for self defense. I can't believe I even have to say this.
I have a 32 S&W long revolver with which I have lots of experience, lots of 32S&W and 32S&W ammo; I find the gun accurate, controllable and repeatable.
I have more 32acp semi-automatics than any other caliber and also more 32acp ammo on hand than any other caliber except 22LR.
In fact, I prefer the 32 family of cartridges (both revolver and semi-automatic) for my personal protection choices over the other choices I have available.
What worked in 1922 still seems to work today.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim
Re: Wadcutters?
47Good video. It doesn’t say much for the .32 long(at least this low velocity loading) . I found it to be more a critique on small, .22semi autos than .22 LR as a cartridge. I know from my own .22 semi auto that it is very ammo sensitive. Once you put a .22 LR in a revolver that solves likely ‘half’ of the reliability issue (just pull the trigger again, for a misfire). No need to clear a misfire. However, most would agree that centerfire is more reliable ignition. Nothings 100% - even revolvers. Every firearms is ammo dependent to some degree.wooglin wrote:This Gun Sam vid just dropped today. Appropriate to the conversation.
https://youtu.be/NTkpZnKQiQo
For instance- I’ve had primers get pushed back out of the cup with heavy recoiling .357 hand loads, and it locks up the revolver. I’ve only ever had this issue with Winchester small magnum primers. It’s a nerve wracking racking experience to have a revolver “fail.” But educational.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: Wadcutters?
48Very enlightening. He also did a milk jug video with 32 and 38 Buffalo Bore wads, both faster than most wads and would definitely go over 12” in gel. Lucky Gunner tested Magtech 32 wads in gel and they went over 12”. I can’t find any videos of Sellier & Bellot or Fiocchi 32 wads but I believe both are slower than Magtech.wooglin wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:50 pm This Gun Sam vid just dropped today. Appropriate to the conversation.
https://youtu.be/NTkpZnKQiQo
Re: Wadcutters?
49Regarding 22lr I would recommend CCI Velocitor, they have the best gel penetration I’ve seen anyone report. I think it is the fastest 40 grain 22lr round available, or one of the fastest at least. It definitely blasts and recoils more than regular high velocity ammo.wooglin wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:50 pm This Gun Sam vid just dropped today. Appropriate to the conversation.
https://youtu.be/NTkpZnKQiQo
Re: Wadcutters?
50There are other .22LR loadings in the same velocity class as Velocitors, and they all do comparatively well in gel, but Velocitors are the gold standard. Federal's Punch offering seems to be a 29 grain plated Keith-style design using a similar wide flat nose to get better terminal ballistics from a short barrel. Winchester has fragmenting rounds with similar penetration to Velocitors from a 27 grain wadcutter-like base, but the nose fragments in the first few inches after penetrating heavy clothing. Stingers seem to work best out of a short barrel but expand too quickly to be useful otherwise, and most .22LR seems to lose penetration to expansion out of a rifle. Barrel length plays a huge role for rimfire effectiveness.
In terms of terminal ballistics, remember that a flat point is going to impart equal-and-opposite force normal to the point and parallel to the direction of travel. A round nose is going to deflect tissue an average of 45 degrees, reducing that force considerably. Better penetration, but less tissue disruption. The difference in energy transfer rate has been measured, and it's pretty significant.
Hollowpoints obviously do more damage than FMJs, but only if they expand. Good designs are pretty reliable these days, but Keith style flatheads are still preferred for hunting and dangerous game for a reason.
In terms of terminal ballistics, remember that a flat point is going to impart equal-and-opposite force normal to the point and parallel to the direction of travel. A round nose is going to deflect tissue an average of 45 degrees, reducing that force considerably. Better penetration, but less tissue disruption. The difference in energy transfer rate has been measured, and it's pretty significant.
Hollowpoints obviously do more damage than FMJs, but only if they expand. Good designs are pretty reliable these days, but Keith style flatheads are still preferred for hunting and dangerous game for a reason.
