I understand. I am also skeptical about everything including religion and universal fact. I just think we are beyond the point of replacing the whole machine. Ya know what I mean?

ArmedAznF wrote:Lol. And I thought liberals were suppose to be anti-monopoly. Yet you're willing to grant the most tyrannical and quite possibly evil simpliciter power - legal jurisdiction and the use of force - to some suit you know nothing about and have zero control over in DC. Some suit who's in a rotating-door arrangement with big business. Excuse me. I am a bit more skeptical.

I think that small city-states went out with the the fall of the Romans. A divided US is a weak and worthless country in trade, defense, and anything else you can imagine. Ask Crete or Latvia or most any of the countries that sprang from the breakup of the USSR.

I *know* my neighbors. I want them no where near the reins of control. Our public schools are always ranked at 49 or 50. Those school boards are elected locally. No thanks.

I don't fear a centralized government and I don't feel they are nearly as nefarious as you feel. I feel that most politicians get into it at the local levels with the motivation to effect what they feel is positive change. But by the time they get to the top they are so indebted to everyone who had to finance their campaigns along the way that they are no longer free to make decisions based solely on what is good for the populace. In effect, they have to sell their souls to the devil to reach the top. And in so doing, are no longer able to work for the causes that they likely started out fighting for.

One of the best things we can do is not to eliminate elections and leaders but to reform how we pick our representatives. And while I think Greek philosophers make for an interesting read, they surely had no understanding of a globalized world with 7 billion people on it. How do we change the process? Glad you asked:

1. No more human decisions in making districts. There are plenty of computer algorithms that divide states up fairly and randomly into equally populated chunks that have nothing to do with voting power. Use these, eliminate gerrymandering that keeps people in power and takes the voting power away from those in the minority.

2. Publicly funded elections. It removes that whole 'selling your soul' thing.

3. Severely restrict the ability of lobbyists to give kickbacks, weekend getaways, etc to members of congress.

4. Allow multiple parties at the table. The criteria for who gets on the ballots needs to be amended so that the Dems and Repubs can't elbow them out of the way and exclude them from debates and the like.


These could all be accomplished with minimal legislation. I don't think it would require any amendments to the constitution or anything of that nature.

I think with these steps you would minimize the influence of businesses over politicians. Which, I think, you and I can both agree on is a bad thing.

The problem is, no one is willing to do it.

Great discussion! Just wanted to say that it's refreshing to read a thread on a controversial subject on a gun board and not read slams, flames, put downs etc. Even though the winger wackos try to stereotype us as being the same, liberals have as many differences as similarities.

Mark; You made that sound so easy that I'm sure it cant be done. I think due to the requirements: common sense, will power, two aspirin and a pen.

Wouldn't it be ironic if some wacko shot Beck?

Sonofagun wrote:You made that sound so easy that I'm sure it cant be done. I think due to the requirements: common sense, will power, two aspirin and a pen.

HA.... too true, unfortunately.

Love&A.45 wrote:Wouldn't it be ironic if some wacko shot Beck?

I just think Beck needs to spend more time with gun in his hand. He'll shoot himself soon enough.

ArmedAznF wrote:I want a smaller government, but not just in terms of not taking up 40% of the GDP and running massive regulatory agencies for the fun of it. In the sense of Federalizing the states and flushing the current FedGov down the drain. I believe in face-to-face communalism. Aristotle had it right; a large polis always degenerates into tyranny. A small Polis is dynamic and reflects the needs and interests of the people involved. A big centralized state is nothing but a crime racket writ large.

There is the issue that we wouldn't have ever shaken free from britain without putting at least one foot through the Large Polis door. That whole "We hang together or we'll all hang separately" fact of the revolutionary period derails the idea that the small political unit can have real freedom - the small state gets pushed around and commanded by the larger states.

You didn't see ukraine telling russia what to do, russia was bigger so russia told the smaller states around it what was going to happen and to shut up and deal with it.

Reduce the federal government into a weak ineffective thing, and that basically turns us from one nation strong and large enough to fend for ourselves into 50 small nations with the weaker individual power.

There's no real debate - either we are one nation formed of 50 regions, or we are 50 self-determining nations belonging to a non-binding federation. Most of the libertarian rhetoric about "small government" tries to split the difference, and there's just no possible way for a state like Pennsylvania to be both considered a self-determining nation that isn't bound by the laws of the federal government and also partake of the benefits of being part of a nation where it is bound by federal laws. Can't have your cake and eat it too, the sword has two edges, gotta take the bad along with the good, all those old adages apply here and they don't apply favorably to the current libertarian arguments.

Not that there isn't something to those arguments, but if people want the benefits of a combined national defense then they gotta shut up about federal taxes. If they want the benefits of being able to simply trust that the food in the supermarket isn't going to poison them to death, they shut up about federal regulations regarding feeding cattle (to prevent sickly livestock) and they keep quiet about regulations for cleaning the slaughterhouse and laws for packaging materials and refrigeration and transportation and storage. They close the pie hole even though the 'business' that makes the packaging cries about 'evil regulations' that 'get in the way of business', because that isn't the business crying, it's the president/owner/ceo who thinks he isn't living enough like royalty among the peasants who work for him.

Federal regulations largely attempt to put a floor under the american standard of living. Anyone who truly wants to abolish the federal government should get used to things like outhouses and cooking on a wood stove and drinking from a rain barrel and eating meat that has never been refrigerated but is only edible because it's been salted beyond what anyone other than the amish are familiar with, just in case they get their wish and the federal government is drowned in the bathtub.

mark wrote:

Sonofagun wrote:Not a compliment to the iphone! I meant I keep hitting the wrong buttons! Then I have to try to make up for lost time! Fuck!

Screw virtual keyboards. I haven't found on yet that was worth a crap and would let me type anywhere near a little slide out qwerty.

I like the keyboard on my Droid X. Installed the honeycomb keyboard and haven't had an issue since.

ArmedAznF wrote: Lol. And I thought liberals were suppose to be anti-monopoly. Yet you're willing to grant the most tyrannical and quite possibly evil simpliciter power - legal jurisdiction and the use of force - to some suit you know nothing about and have zero control over in DC. Some suit who's in a rotating-door arrangement with big business. Excuse me. I am a bit more skeptical.

Just like liberals are supposed to be anti-gun? I'm more willing to have a homogeneous nation when it comes to law than a patchwork quilt of BS, especially when it comes to Constitutionally enshrined rights.

As to big business: a couple of legislative changes and we'd be pretty good to go. Removing corporate personhood would be a good start.

And Jay, excellent post!

Great post Jay! End war, take meth labs from Republicans, put hair around hole.........SCORE~!!

I think mvelimer can lecture us better than anyone on the tragic consequences of a weak federal government.

the comedian wrote:I think mvelimer can lecture us better than anyone on the tragic consequences of a weak federal government.

My best friends and co-workers are Bosnian who fled and moved to Germany, then to US. We are janitors now. We share a common thing. Awareness of lots of bullshit and real threat to way of life. I've learned a lot sinse meeting these guys. Rare to meet people with a concience and "facts" about history. Lots of respect for you mvelimer...

Sonofagun wrote:

the comedian wrote:I think mvelimer can lecture us better than anyone on the tragic consequences of a weak federal government.

My best friends and co-workers are Bosnian who fled and moved to Germany, then to US. We are janitors now. We share a common thing. Awareness of lots of bullshit and real threat to way of life. I've learned a lot sinse meeting these guys. Rare to meet people with a concience and "facts" about history. Lots of respect for you mvelimer...

Thanks Sonofagun. Don't know which part of Bosnia your friends are, and they might not get this right if they are not from Sarajevo (I hope they do)... but tell them from me (lovingly): "Dje ste ba, supci!"

Will Do...