Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

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I thought it might be fun to take a look at two Winchester shotguns; my model 12 that was made in 1927 and my SXP that was likely made last year.
Winchester then & now 2small.jpg
They are both 20 Gauge since about all I've ever considered has been doves and nolegs. They are very similar in overall length and weight but quite different in feel and function.

The main newer SXP has a 3" chamber and chokes that can be user changed while the model 12 is a 2¾" chamber with a fixed modified choke. Right now both are modified choke and I have shot far more 2¾" through the SXP than 3" since that was what I had on hand. I do have some 3" now though and if things improve and I actually get out during dove season I'll try both to see what differences result. Frankly, most doves don't really pay any attention to me regardless of what I carry or use. It's embarrassing when the doves just continue feeding even when you are close enough to swing at them.

I swear they laugh.
fit & finish 1.jpg
fit & finish 2.jpg
There are some substantial differences though. The model 12 is a product of hand crafting while the SXP is 100% machine. It really shows in the fit & finish where the model 12 is complex curves and surfaces that feel like they were made for my exact hand while the SXP is sharp angles and flat surfaces and stamped sheet metal rather than forged pieces parts. The model 12 is walnut where the SXP is "Hard Wood" whatever that might be.


Takedown might be just slightly easier on the model 12 than the SXP but neither is difficult. Cleaning and maintenance are also pretty comparable.

The model 12 does seem to point more naturally than the SXP but that is mainly I believe a matter of familiarity. It's the old pair of jeans that fit just right versus the new ones that are not quite there yet. Also while they are almost exactly the same overall length, the model 12 has a 28" barrel and the SXP only 26".

Long term repair will likely go to the SXP. Since it is made of interchangeable pieces parts rather than hand fit one offs it should have an advantage. The SXP also has three different chokes and a 3" chamber and so suited for a far wider range of use than the model 12.

Summing up; both reflect the period when made; one old world post WWI craftsmanship and one modern computer aided manufacturing; one a work of art and the other a tool.
Last edited by sig230 on Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

3
Thanks for this comparison w pics. I agree that aesthetics are a big reason many of us are into collecting firearms. But I doubt the average person would notice or care.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

6
Winchester 1300 Speed pump. Then & now. Found an old pic of me hunting with my dad in 2008 - I was still in the Navy. I just used the same gun for duck hunting this past weekend. I put a synthetic stock on it. I’ve had this gun since 05, and it’s been a reliable field gun. I think I paid $350 for it new & it is the deluxe stock wood and pretty nice blueing from the new haven plant. Hard to complain about a piece of gear used pretty hard for 16 years of hunting.
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It was wet & no ducks … but still some great solitude in the woods.


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Re: Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

11
sig230 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:05 pm I thought it might be fun to take a look at two Winchester shotguns; my model 12 that was made in 1927 and my SXP that was likely made last year.

Winchester then & now 2small.jpg

They are both 20 Gauge since about all I've ever considered has been doves and nolegs. They are very similar in overall length and weight but quite different in feel and function.

The main newer SXP has a 3" chamber and chokes that can be user changed while the model 12 is a 2¾" chamber with a fixed modified choke. Right now both are modified choke and I have shot far more 2¾" through the SXP than 3" since that was what I had on hand. I do have some 3" now though and if things improve and I actually get out during dove season I'll try both to see what differences result. Frankly, most doves don't really pay any attention to me regardless of what I carry or use. It's embarrassing when the doves just continue feeding even when you are close enough to swing at them.

I swear they laugh.

fit & finish 1.jpg
fit & finish 2.jpg

There are some substantial differences though. The model 12 is a product of hand crafting while the SXP is 100% machine. It really shows in the fit & finish where the model 12 is complex curves and surfaces that feel like they were made for my exact hand while the SXP is sharp angles and flat surfaces and stamped sheet metal rather than forged pieces parts. The model 12 is walnut where the SXP is "Hard Wood" whatever that might be.


Takedown might be just slightly easier on the model 12 than the SXP but neither is difficult. Cleaning and maintenance are also pretty comparable.

The model 12 does seem to point more naturally than the SXP but that is mainly I believe a matter of familiarity. It's the old pair of jeans that fit just right versus the new ones that are not quite there yet. Also while they are almost exactly the same overall length, the model 12 has a 28" barrel and the SXP only 26".

Long term repair will likely go to the SXP. Since it is made of interchangeable pieces parts rather than hand fit one offs it should have an advantage. The SXP also has three different chokes and a 3" chamber and so suited for a far wider range of use than the model 12.

Summing up; both reflect the period when made; one old world post WWI craftsmanship and one modern computer aided manufacturing; one a work of art and the other a tool.
First, awesome writeup!!!

Some thoughts on your Model 12. Believe it or not, model 12's have almost complete parts interchangeability... In fact, I'm struggling to think of something that wouldn't interchange (I've worked on a number of them over the years). Even the front halves will interchange from gun to gun. You'll have to make adjustments to the wear ring before mounting the new barrel, but that's easy enough. BTW, are you familiar with the wear ring on your Model 12? It's to compensate for it being a takedown. The battering between front and back half will eventually wear things, so you just adjust the ring anytime it gets even the slightest bit wobbly; clever idea actually. Eventually you will wear one to the point where the wear ring is adjusted all the way out. But gunsmiths like me can do some magic and "reset" you for the next 50k rounds.

I like your SXP, I'd love to take one of those for a test drive. Looks like you nabbed yourself a great shotgun.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

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FrontSight wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:59 pm First, awesome writeup!!!

Some thoughts on your Model 12. Believe it or not, model 12's have almost complete parts interchangeability... In fact, I'm struggling to think of something that wouldn't interchange (I've worked on a number of them over the years). Even the front halves will interchange from gun to gun. You'll have to make adjustments to the wear ring before mounting the new barrel, but that's easy enough. BTW, are you familiar with the wear ring on your Model 12? It's to compensate for it being a takedown. The battering between front and back half will eventually wear things, so you just adjust the ring anytime it gets even the slightest bit wobbly; clever idea actually. Eventually you will wear one to the point where the wear ring is adjusted all the way out. But gunsmiths like me can do some magic and "reset" you for the next 50k rounds.

I like your SXP, I'd love to take one of those for a test drive. Looks like you nabbed yourself a great shotgun.
Glad you enjoyed it. I've had to adjust the ring a couple times over the years but honestly I can't really see any wear. There must be some since the gun is approaching the century mark. But then I've also been carrying one of my Colt 1903's lately; one made in 1923 and it too simply works. I've never tried exchanging pieces parts in the 1903's but I wonder just how parts interchangeable they might be.

I'm getting used to the SXP. It's simply a different drill and I still find it somewhat jarring. The traditional two step pull/push on the forearm seems natural but with the SXP is is just push; after firing the forearm is already fully back and yet I still often try to pull and then the doves literally fall over laughing. I've had to pick them up and move them into the shade to recover.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

13
Model 12's and 1903 Colts...you're a man after my own heart. There are a few different versions of the 1903, so as long as you buy parts for that version, most are interchangeable. Barrels and safeties always need fitting, but most other things tend to drop in. Both Colt and Winchester were 100% American System of manufacturing, so very few parts actually require any hand fitting... Even for 100+ year old guns.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Just for fun. Winchester Then & Now:

14
FrontSight wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:56 pm Model 12's and 1903 Colts...you're a man after my own heart. There are a few different versions of the 1903, so as long as you buy parts for that version, most are interchangeable. Barrels and safeties always need fitting, but most other things tend to drop in. Both Colt and Winchester were 100% American System of manufacturing, so very few parts actually require any hand fitting... Even for 100+ year old guns.
I only have the two different models, a 4" Type 1 from 1906 and some Type 3s.

Of my 32s (the caliber I carry most often) the 1903s are my second favorites and one of my JP Sauer & Sohns 38H's the by far first choice.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

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