Re: Worse Than Treason?

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:06 am In Georgia, 10,971 people have died from Covid-19, nearly the 11,780 votes he demanded.

They didn't die just because he's an idiot, but because he's a malevolent, narcissistic, sadistic idiot.
A grim observation.

How long will it take for more Americans to learn about the numbers? Still gotta hunker 'till maybe fall 21. Gad, what a shit head. No wonder some people want blood. So we thank the checks and balances that prevent strange fruit dangling from lamp posts.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eye Jack

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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I support people exercising their rights under the constitution and laws of our country. Tomorrow is the last opportunity Republicans have to object to electoral votes and it will go down to defeat, but they'll go through with the farce. The protests are led by Don the Con, he's a master at lying to his followers to keep the money coming in. Cruz, Rubio, Hawley...just picked up on the con to add to their own campaign funds and get some of Trump's supporters. They have to give their donors a show tomorrow, politics involves a lot of drama.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:26 am Let it play out.

I believe that the system will generate the correct result.
This is a GOP-controlled state. Trump just replaced the US Attorney here with an ally - just in time to challenge today's runoff. It is hard to trust the system when the system is staffed like this.

I am not saying you are wrong, but you can't say "don't worry" if you are saying that from a safe place.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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K9s wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:18 pm
Ylatkit wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:26 am Let it play out.

I believe that the system will generate the correct result.
This is a GOP-controlled state. Trump just replaced the US Attorney here with an ally - just in time to challenge today's runoff. It is hard to trust the system when the system is staffed like this.

I am not saying you are wrong, but you can't say "don't worry" if you are saying that from a safe place.
It's 'who counts the votes' that counts.

Does the new US Attorney have any way of contesting or discounting the results?
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:28 am There IS a legal way to overthrow our government (and voting the bums out only overthrows the people, not the government),
That is exactly my point. How can you understand this and argue that Trump is committing treason?

His court challenges have been aimed at staying in office, not destroying that office.

His Georgia phone call appears to be straight-up criminal, and I don't know enough to talk about it. (I would, anyway, of course. I want to fit in here. :cool: )
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:58 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:28 am There IS a legal way to overthrow our government (and voting the bums out only overthrows the people, not the government),
That is exactly my point. How can you understand this and argue that Trump is committing treason?

His court challenges have been aimed at staying in office, not destroying that office.

His Georgia phone call appears to be straight-up criminal, and I don't know enough to talk about it. (I would, anyway, of course. I want to fit in here. :cool: )
When you install yourself as an illegitimate holder of an office, you are destroying that office. You’re not destroying the physical office, you’re destroying its function and purpose, the institution.

Imagine a president who appoints each member of Congress in direct contravention to the law. He’s not destroying the physical building nor the trappings, but Congress as intended by the Constitution has been destroyed. The Capitol building remains, but whatever stood in it is not Congress.

The Constitution says the president is elected by the Electoral College, and the EC did just that. Any attempt to nullify it is an attempt to destroy the constitutional institution of the Presidency. If Trump stays as president, then the presidency as we know it is gone.

Imagine a farfetched scenario where USA is taken over by Russians, who install a president in the White House. The presidency is still there doing normal presidential things, but the institution has been destroyed.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Stiff wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:55 am Imagine a farfetched scenario where USA is taken over by Russians, who install a president in the White House. The presidency is still there doing normal presidential things, but the institution has been destroyed.
many, many 3rd world despots have styled themselves "president", even "president for life" which runs directly counter to the way we've always done it here. allegedly geo. washington set the pattern after the revolution when he was offered a throne and declined.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:58 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:28 am There IS a legal way to overthrow our government (and voting the bums out only overthrows the people, not the government),
That is exactly my point. How can you understand this and argue that Trump is committing treason?

His court challenges have been aimed at staying in office, not destroying that office.

His Georgia phone call appears to be straight-up criminal, and I don't know enough to talk about it. (I would, anyway, of course. I want to fit in here. :cool: )
Can you still stand by this after Trump egged his mob to go attack the Capitol Building and the elected Representatives and Senators, leaving 4 of them dead, including a woman named Ashli Babbitt, a QAnon fanatic, shot while trying to smash through doors barricaded by the Capitol Police Force? Included in danger were the Vice-President, the Speaker, the House Minority Leader, the Senate Majority and Minority leaders, and the Senate's President Pro Tem, of whom 5 (including Pence) Trump now considers as "enemies".

Yesterday has been expected since December 14th, when all 50+1 states certified their slate of electors.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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I also thought of Ylatkit’s stated opinions watching the events unfold yesterday. Has “sedition” finally become a word in his lexicon? Somehow I have my doubts that we’ll find out anytime soon.

Nothing is ever delineated so clearly in the legal process. We see the courts misused all the time to intimidate people(s), drag out justice, etc. and there are laws preventing frivolous lawsuits because of this. A formality in the national election process in Congress can also be abused in the same way to harm American voters just like attempts through the courts. Every attempt at such abuse should be noted for its attempt, not whether it succeeded, or blithely ignored if it doesn’t. The attempt should never be allowed if possible! The danger is in the attempt because it undermines trust in institutions. That is the meaning behind “destroying the office” while leaving the edifice unscathed.

All of this applies to Trump’s inflammatory, seditious rhetoric which bore fruit yesterday. We don’t yet know the true end result of what he (and the GOP) gave birth to...
3B69D7FD-AACC-4EAF-941A-8EC12CC2DDF5.jpeg
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMJWnryGD/
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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I would think that storming the Capitol Building by force to disrupt Congress during their attempt to formalize the certified electoral vote count declaring the legally elected president-elect, at the behest of the losing candidate, might just constitute an attack on the government of the United States of America, and provide aid and comfort to its enemies. There are probably more than two witnesses. I've been reluctant to use the word treason before yesterday, but I have a hard time considering it hyperbolic today.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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wings wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:00 pm I would think that storming the Capitol Building by force to disrupt Congress during their attempt to formalize the certified electoral vote count declaring the legally elected president-elect, at the behest of the losing candidate, might just constitute an attack on the government of the United States of America, and provide aid and comfort to its enemies. There are probably more than two witnesses. I've been reluctant to use the word treason before yesterday, but I have a hard time considering it hyperbolic today.
Sedition if not out right treason.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eye Jack

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:32 am
Can you still stand by this after Trump egged his mob to go attack the Capitol Building and the elected Representatives and Senators, leaving 4 of them dead, including a woman named Ashli Babbitt, a QAnon fanatic, shot while trying to smash through doors barricaded by the Capitol Police Force? Included in danger were the Vice-President, the Speaker, the House Minority Leader, the Senate Majority and Minority leaders, and the Senate's President Pro Tem, of whom 5 (including Pence) Trump now considers as "enemies".
No, now it's sedition. Hang him.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:55 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:32 am
Can you still stand by this after Trump egged his mob to go attack the Capitol Building and the elected Representatives and Senators, leaving 4 of them dead, including a woman named Ashli Babbitt, a QAnon fanatic, shot while trying to smash through doors barricaded by the Capitol Police Force? Included in danger were the Vice-President, the Speaker, the House Minority Leader, the Senate Majority and Minority leaders, and the Senate's President Pro Tem, of whom 5 (including Pence) Trump now considers as "enemies".
No, now it's sedition. Hang him.
Thank you.
Opinions should recognize changes in the fact list and change to fit those fact changes.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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K9s wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:42 pm “The sedition caucus is worse than a treasonous conspiracy. At least real traitors believe in something.”

This is sedition, plain and simple. No amount of playacting and rationalizing can change the fact that the majority of the Republican Party and its apologists are advocating for the overthrow of an American election and the continued rule of a sociopathic autocrat.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/617538/
“We are what we pretend to be,” Kurt Vonnegut wrote in the opening of his 1962 novel, Mother Night, “and so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” Republicans in Congress are pretending to be seditionists—and so they have become, in fact, seditionists.

Forget all the whispered denials and the off-the-record expressions of concern in private; ignore the knowing smirks on camera from GOP officials who are desperately trying to indicate that they’re in on the joke. Brush aside the caviling of the anti-anti-Trump writers who would rather talk about that time in 2017 when some Democrats objected to the Electoral College vote (and were gaveled down by Joe Biden himself).

This is sedition, plain and simple. No amount of playacting and rationalizing can change the fact that the majority of the Republican Party and its apologists are advocating for the overthrow of an American election and the continued rule of a sociopathic autocrat.

This is not some handful of firebrands making a stand for the television cameras. In 2005, one Democrat in the House and one in the Senate filed an objection to counting Ohio’s electoral votes, while insisting that they were not contesting the outcome of the presidential election itself. In 2017, a handful of Democratic members of the House objected to the electoral count. Because they lacked support in the Senate, then–Vice President Biden ruled the representatives out of order and declared, “It is over.” In both cases, the Democratic candidate had already conceded.

Today, the “sedition caucus” includes at least 140 members of the House—that is, some two-thirds of the House GOP membership—and at least 10 members of the Senate. Their challenge comes after weeks of insistence that the 2020 election was rigged, plagued by fraud, and even subverted by foreign powers. The president and his minions have filed, and lost, scores of lawsuits that ranged from minor disputes over process to childlike, error-filled briefs full of bizarre assertions.

Instead of threatening to gavel these objections into irrelevance, as Biden did four years ago, Vice President Mike Pence “welcomes” these challenges. Pence’s career is finished, but he could have stood for the Constitution he claims to love and which he swore to defend. However, cowardice is contagious, and no mask was thick enough to protect Pence from the pathogen of fear.

Perhaps the sedition caucus didn’t mean to go this far. Its members began by arguing that we all just needed to humor President Trump, to give him time to process the loss, and to treat the president of the United States as a toddler who was going home empty-handed. He wouldn’t be a dead-ender, they assured us, because that would be too humiliating. The Republican Party would never immolate itself for a proven loser.

But for Trump, there is no such thing as too much humiliation. The only shame in Trump world lies in admitting defeat. And so Trump doubled down, as anyone who had watched him for more than 10 minutes knew he would. And then he tripled, quadrupled, quintupled down. And just as they have done for the past four years, elected Republicans tried to convince themselves that if they supported this outrage, it would be the last time they would be required to surrender their dignity; that this betrayal of the Constitution would be the last treachery demanded of them. That if they complied one more time, they would be allowed to go back to their privileged lives far from the districts they claim to represent—places few of them really want to live after tasting life in the Emerald City.

It is possible that the sedition caucus knew that all these challenges would fail. It is possible that they know their last insult to American democracy, on Wednesday, will go nowhere, as well. This is irrelevant: Engaging in sedition for insincere reasons does not make it less hideous. Arguing that you betrayed the Constitution only as theater is no defense.

Indeed, shredding the Constitution purely for personal gain is perhaps the worst of the sins of the sedition caucus. It would almost be a relief to know that these Republicans really believe what they’re trying to sell, that they are genuine fanatics and ideologues who have at least paid us the respect of pitting their sincere beliefs against our own.

But we are, in the main, dealing with people who are far worse than true believers. The Republican Party is infested with craven opportunists, the kind of people who will try to tell us later that they were “just asking questions,” that they were “defending the process,” and of course, that they were merely representing “the will of the people.” Senators Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz are not idiots. These are men who understand perfectly well what they are doing. Senator Mitt Romney sees it clearly, noting that his GOP colleagues are engaged in “an egregious ploy” to “enhance political ambition.”

People of goodwill across the United States want some sort of road map to oppose this cold-blooded attack on the Constitution, but none exists. As James Madison warned us, without a virtuous people, no system of checks and balances will work. The Republicans have gone from being a party that touted virtue to being the most squalid and grubby expression of institutionalized self-interest in the modern history of the American republic.

The real solution will come after all of these schemes fail. Voters must not take the bait and try to tinker with hasty legal and constitutional fixes. These, too, will fail to contain a party that is determined to destroy legal and moral norms in the pursuit of raw power. The better course is to turn our attention to the business of governing, while vowing to drive every member of the sedition caucus out of our public life, both through the ballot box and by shunning their enablers.

The members of the public and the institutions of American life should shroud these seditionists in silence and opprobrium in perpetuity: no television interviews, no sinecures at universities or think tanks, no rehabilitating book tours, no jokey late-night appearances, no self-serving op-eds.


The sedition caucus is worse than a treasonous conspiracy. At least real traitors believe in something. These people instead believe only in their own fortunes and thus will change flags and loyalties as circumstances require. They will always become what they pretend to be, and so they cannot—and must not—be trusted ever again with political power.

While I agree with this sentiment 100%, it will never happen.

The foot soldiers of Trump's Brown Shirt army are honestly acting in good faith. They trust the man that they helped to put in the white house for one disasterous term. They believe his lies. Some might double speak and know in their hearts that they are believing lies, but they get to "own libs" so it's worth it for them. Most however, are 2nd or 3rd generational clueless low info voters. This is what a great deal of America now is. We have dumbed down our news media to the point of ridiculousness, our educational system is in shambles, and now people believe in the ghost stories of modern times: the grift is in and they're ultimately not able to resist the siren call of the alt-right media. It provides them with easy answers to their problems. Can't get your insulin? It's the muslims and libs. Can't find a job? Black lives matter and Mexicans took it from you. Worried about your future? Better watch out for Antifa, because they're coming to invade your sleepy rural neighborhood.

These are not new tricks or tactics, but they're amped up on steroids with the advent of social media-based right wing infotainment. Q Anon would not be possible without the internet. Trump wouldn't be president without facebook and twitter.

We can talk about what the solutions would be until the cows come home, but we will never get the Trumpites to do what's right for this country. We can't even get moderate Democrats to do what's right for this country.

I'm afraid that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. We're in for a very bumpy 2021... the vaccine isn't going to fix the fiscal cliff that we're speeding towards, it's not going to solve the impending stock market crash, and it's not going to fix our broken health care system.

We keep slapping band-aids on a gun shot wound and call it a plan.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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So...they are looking for, and happy to find scapegoats rather than turning on the leaders (like Trump and McConnell) who betray them every day. They'd rather blame Democrats, Liberal, Communists, Socialists, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Middle-easterners, internationalist (!) bankers, China, but not Russia or any Republican unless labeled "RINO".
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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CDFingers wrote:
jeff2.jpeg
CDFingers
+1.

I had drunk the Kool-Aid back in 1992. I stumped for Bush the elder. I really believed that the election of William J. Clinton was the end of my way of life. My guns were going to be gone et al.

Naturally none of this crap happened. The only time I have been limited in acquiring arms or ammunition has been during the panic buying by the nut jobs.

Growth comes to every one sooner or later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fortuna Peratus Renumerat

Liberal Condescension or Conservative Paranoia; A hell of a way to run a democracy.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Rickoshay wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am
CDFingers wrote:jeff2.jpeg

CDFingers
+1.

I had drunk the Kool-Aid back in 1992. I stumped for Bush the elder. I really believed that the election of William J. Clinton was the end of my way of life. My guns were going to be gone et al.

Naturally none of this crap happened. The only time I have been limited in acquiring arms or ammunition has been during the panic buying by the nut jobs.

Growth comes to every one sooner or later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was living in California while Ronald Reagan was Governor and it was Reagan and the Republican Assembly that passed the no-carry laws.
Last edited by sig230 on Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Happily, all gun owners are safer under Biden than they ever would be under another Turd Term. Be happy. We've dodged a bullet !! LOL
"Being Republican is more than a difference of opinion - it's a character flaw." "COVID can fix STUPID!"
The greatest, most aggrieved mistake EVER made by USA was electing DJT as POTUS - TWICE!!!!!

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Trump legal vets torn over new impeachment defense

The legal team that defended President Donald Trump from impeachment is rushing to his side as it happens again.

With House Democrats pushing to impeach the president before he leaves office, Alan Dershowitz, the Trump-allied celebrity attorney, argued that Trump’s encouragement of this week’s Capitol riots was “constitutionally protected” speech. He said it would be his “honor and privilege” to take on the legal defense.

“It's not a high crime or misdemeanor. What he said was protected by the First Amendment and it's not subject to removal under the 25th Amendment,” Dershowitz told POLITICO. “He's not unable to govern, he's not incapacitated and I think grave dangers to the constitution are being posed by those partisans who want to weaponize the Constitution for political purposes.”
Others who were at Trump’s side when he was impeached in late 2019 issued similar objections to the notion that the president had committed an impeachable offense once more. Jay Sekulow, Trump’s longtime attorney who represented him during the 2019 trial, warned that instituting articles of impeachment now, with just days left in Trump term, would be “a gigantic mistake.”

“You could impeach him but he’s never going to be there for the trial. They’ll never have a trial in the Senate,” Sekulow said on his radio show. “Why would you put the country through that when the man’s term is over with and you got the ultimate victory your candidate is going to be the president of the United States?”

But the sentiment articulated by Dershowitz and Sekulow wasn't shared across the spectrum. And, indeed, some lawyers who previously represented the president said the case currently being presented against him is stronger than the one he ultimately fended off in a Senate trial.

“Unlike the last time, where they didn't even charge a crime, I could imagine that you could draft an article of impeachment that would actually make a legal argument that the president aided or abetted or actually elicited a riot,” said Robert Ray, a member of the president’s defense team during the last impeachment.

The division even among the president’s legal allies is a microcosm of the chaos Trump has sparked in recent days. The president’s instigation of Wednesday’s ransacking of the Capitol has thrown his own party into turmoil in the final days of his presidency, prompted resignations among his own cabinet members, and convinced Democrats in Congress to take swift action to remove him from office even as his term nears its conclusion.

“Today, following the president’s dangerous and seditious acts, Republicans in Congress need to follow that example and call on Trump to depart his office—immediately,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi wrote in a letter to House members.

Trump’s initial impeachment came after it emerged that he solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election—pressuring the president of Ukraine for information on Joe Biden and his son Hunter. The Senate ultimately declined to convict, though one Republican, Mitt Romney, did back one impeachment article.

Slightly over a year later, Trump finds himself embroiled in another impeachment saga. And while Republicans, including White House veterans, have largely resisted the effort to push him out of office before his term ends, they are expressing far more disgust with his actions this go around.

"I was talking to some friends and when it happened, I felt very sad. It was a familiar feeling but I couldn't place where I last experienced it,” said a former White House lawyer. “And then it came to me. I felt almost identical to the day I was 17 and learned Martin Luther King had been assassinated. It was a country I didn't recognize.”

Behind closed doors, senior Republican aides and lawmakers have discussed how to punish Trump for his involvement in the riots and violence at the Capitol, including talk of pursuing the 25th Amendment to remove him from office. Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska), said on Friday that the president should resign.

“He doesn’t want to stay there. He only wants to stay there for the title. He only wants to stay there for his ego,” Murkowski told the Anchorage Daily News. “He needs to get out. He needs to do the good thing, but I don’t think he’s capable of doing a good thing.”

So far, two of Trump’s cabinet members, Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos and Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao have resigned, citing Wednesday’s events.

Trump himself had not commented about the push for impeachment. But the White House issued a statement condemning it Friday afternoon.

“A politically motivated impeachment against a President, who has done a great job, with 12 days remaining in his term will only serve to further divide our great country,” said White House press secretary Judd Deere.

And some of Trump’s most vocal legal defenders did come to his defense in his absence.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who was a Republican witness during the House impeachment proceedings, said he has been fielding phone calls from members of Congress from both sides of the aisle asking for his guidance.

“There is a widely shared anger over the president’s speech. The rhetoric was wrong,” said Turley, who criticized the president’s rally as it was happening. But while he called the speech “inciteful” he said it would be considered protected speech.

“Consider the implications -- it would mean Congress would impeach a president for a speech that would be deemed protected under existing case law,” Turley said. “It would be done without hearings or the normal deliberations for impeachment and that’s a curious way for members to express support for our Constitution.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/0 ... ent-456674

Alan Dershowitz should be ignored just like Rudy. As for protected speech, the example yelling fire in a theater when there is none is not protected speech, just like speech to incite a riot is not protected.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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The problem there is probably that you'd need case law, probably federal case law, that applied in D.C. last Wednesday that inciting a riot is not protected speech.

And I doubt you'd find it, because there probably haven't been enough incitement trials appealed for there to be case law that is on point for incitement vs. the first amendment.

Not to mention that the only ones at the trial who would understand that can't vote, and those that can vote will be doing so on either pure politics or pure emotion, and confusion could derail a reasonable argument under either.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

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