Worse Than Treason?

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“The sedition caucus is worse than a treasonous conspiracy. At least real traitors believe in something.”

This is sedition, plain and simple. No amount of playacting and rationalizing can change the fact that the majority of the Republican Party and its apologists are advocating for the overthrow of an American election and the continued rule of a sociopathic autocrat.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/617538/
“We are what we pretend to be,” Kurt Vonnegut wrote in the opening of his 1962 novel, Mother Night, “and so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” Republicans in Congress are pretending to be seditionists—and so they have become, in fact, seditionists.

Forget all the whispered denials and the off-the-record expressions of concern in private; ignore the knowing smirks on camera from GOP officials who are desperately trying to indicate that they’re in on the joke. Brush aside the caviling of the anti-anti-Trump writers who would rather talk about that time in 2017 when some Democrats objected to the Electoral College vote (and were gaveled down by Joe Biden himself).

This is sedition, plain and simple. No amount of playacting and rationalizing can change the fact that the majority of the Republican Party and its apologists are advocating for the overthrow of an American election and the continued rule of a sociopathic autocrat.

This is not some handful of firebrands making a stand for the television cameras. In 2005, one Democrat in the House and one in the Senate filed an objection to counting Ohio’s electoral votes, while insisting that they were not contesting the outcome of the presidential election itself. In 2017, a handful of Democratic members of the House objected to the electoral count. Because they lacked support in the Senate, then–Vice President Biden ruled the representatives out of order and declared, “It is over.” In both cases, the Democratic candidate had already conceded.

Today, the “sedition caucus” includes at least 140 members of the House—that is, some two-thirds of the House GOP membership—and at least 10 members of the Senate. Their challenge comes after weeks of insistence that the 2020 election was rigged, plagued by fraud, and even subverted by foreign powers. The president and his minions have filed, and lost, scores of lawsuits that ranged from minor disputes over process to childlike, error-filled briefs full of bizarre assertions.

Instead of threatening to gavel these objections into irrelevance, as Biden did four years ago, Vice President Mike Pence “welcomes” these challenges. Pence’s career is finished, but he could have stood for the Constitution he claims to love and which he swore to defend. However, cowardice is contagious, and no mask was thick enough to protect Pence from the pathogen of fear.

Perhaps the sedition caucus didn’t mean to go this far. Its members began by arguing that we all just needed to humor President Trump, to give him time to process the loss, and to treat the president of the United States as a toddler who was going home empty-handed. He wouldn’t be a dead-ender, they assured us, because that would be too humiliating. The Republican Party would never immolate itself for a proven loser.

But for Trump, there is no such thing as too much humiliation. The only shame in Trump world lies in admitting defeat. And so Trump doubled down, as anyone who had watched him for more than 10 minutes knew he would. And then he tripled, quadrupled, quintupled down. And just as they have done for the past four years, elected Republicans tried to convince themselves that if they supported this outrage, it would be the last time they would be required to surrender their dignity; that this betrayal of the Constitution would be the last treachery demanded of them. That if they complied one more time, they would be allowed to go back to their privileged lives far from the districts they claim to represent—places few of them really want to live after tasting life in the Emerald City.

It is possible that the sedition caucus knew that all these challenges would fail. It is possible that they know their last insult to American democracy, on Wednesday, will go nowhere, as well. This is irrelevant: Engaging in sedition for insincere reasons does not make it less hideous. Arguing that you betrayed the Constitution only as theater is no defense.

Indeed, shredding the Constitution purely for personal gain is perhaps the worst of the sins of the sedition caucus. It would almost be a relief to know that these Republicans really believe what they’re trying to sell, that they are genuine fanatics and ideologues who have at least paid us the respect of pitting their sincere beliefs against our own.

But we are, in the main, dealing with people who are far worse than true believers. The Republican Party is infested with craven opportunists, the kind of people who will try to tell us later that they were “just asking questions,” that they were “defending the process,” and of course, that they were merely representing “the will of the people.” Senators Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz are not idiots. These are men who understand perfectly well what they are doing. Senator Mitt Romney sees it clearly, noting that his GOP colleagues are engaged in “an egregious ploy” to “enhance political ambition.”

People of goodwill across the United States want some sort of road map to oppose this cold-blooded attack on the Constitution, but none exists. As James Madison warned us, without a virtuous people, no system of checks and balances will work. The Republicans have gone from being a party that touted virtue to being the most squalid and grubby expression of institutionalized self-interest in the modern history of the American republic.

The real solution will come after all of these schemes fail. Voters must not take the bait and try to tinker with hasty legal and constitutional fixes. These, too, will fail to contain a party that is determined to destroy legal and moral norms in the pursuit of raw power. The better course is to turn our attention to the business of governing, while vowing to drive every member of the sedition caucus out of our public life, both through the ballot box and by shunning their enablers.

The members of the public and the institutions of American life should shroud these seditionists in silence and opprobrium in perpetuity: no television interviews, no sinecures at universities or think tanks, no rehabilitating book tours, no jokey late-night appearances, no self-serving op-eds.


The sedition caucus is worse than a treasonous conspiracy. At least real traitors believe in something. These people instead believe only in their own fortunes and thus will change flags and loyalties as circumstances require. They will always become what they pretend to be, and so they cannot—and must not—be trusted ever again with political power.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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It's foolishness, not sedition.

Foolishness, idiocy, ambition and stupidity driving legal moves is legal.

We gain nothing except ridicule with hyperbole.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:09 pm It's foolishness, not sedition.

Foolishness, idiocy, ambition and stupidity driving legal moves is legal.

We gain nothing except ridicule with hyperbole.
US Slavery was legal.

Apartheid was legal.

Torture is legal.

That isn't just foolishness. No hyperbole, no BS.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Challenging an American election is not slavery, apartheid or torture. You like red herrings.

I wouldn't want a system that didn't allow challenges to elections.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:50 pm Challenging an American election is not slavery, apartheid or torture. You like red herrings.

I wouldn't want a system that didn't allow challenges to elections.
The election has been challenged. Repeatedly. The challenge has been found to be based on bullshit, as determined by republican officials, republican appointed judges and trumps SCOTUS appointments. There is no there, there. Enough.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:50 pm Challenging an American election is not slavery, apartheid or torture. You like red herrings.

I wouldn't want a system that didn't allow challenges to elections.
there's questioning the tally and all which that implies, and there's challenging the will of the electorate. they are not synonymous, and only one borders on sedition.
People want leadership, and in the absence of genuine leadership they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone.”Aaron Sorkin/Michael J Fox The American President
Subliterate Buffooery of the right...
Literate Ignorance of the left...

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:09 pm It's foolishness, not sedition.

Foolishness, idiocy, ambition and stupidity driving legal moves is legal.

We gain nothing except ridicule with hyperbole.
Threatening the Georgia SecState with vague possible criminal charges if he doesn't "find me 11,780 votes" is not a legal move, it's extortion and election tampering.

He has encouraged mass demonstrations, which, while not illegal, by calling to groups that have many violent incidents in very recent history, including the head of the Proud Boys, arrested in DC for misdemeanors, and then found to have illegal firearms, it is absolutely reasonable to read Trump's calls for "demonstrations" is for VIOLENCE--and that IS sedition.

Then there were the hints in the phone call that if Trump doesn't get the EV changed to favor him, he can do "other things". He's a mob boss. You don't say "I'm going to overthrow the government". You don't say "If he doesn't agree, kill him" you say "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse".

Trump's legal moves are over. They have been SO absurd that his attorneys may WELL face Bar sanctions. This call to Raffensperger was criminal in intent, in words, and implications. Legal is over. The Fulton County, Georgia District Attorney is now looking into whether Trump and his lawyers committed state felonies.

So let's be clear about that. It's beyond foolishness, idiocy, ambition, and stupidity. It's criminal.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:50 pm Challenging an American election is not slavery, apartheid or torture. You like red herrings.

I wouldn't want a system that didn't allow challenges to elections.
You mentioned legality. You overgeneralize, so I cite specific examples of things that are/were legal but not good.

Challenges? Sounds OK. When the challenges are exhausted and the votes are certified despite threats and intimidation, the Congress is supposed to count the votes. They are challenging votes from heavily African-American counties without evidence, though. They never mention the small majority-White counties with actual small incidents of fraud.

If they audited North Carolina, Florida, and Texas rural votes, I might believe that this is not a blatant racist play for future voter suppression. This is just racism in a suit and tie, as usual.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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I agree that the Georgia call is far more serious than the rest of the noise, and I agree that it appears to have been soaked in crime.

I think it's a serious level of crime, and one of my fantasies is to see Trump leave the White House in handcuffs.

The phone call probably can (and should) be parsed to generate several specific charges, but they'll all be covered by Georgia state law, and none of them will be sedition.

I agree that his legal challenges are over.

The senate, however, and the house still have contributions to make, and under our system, those contributions are legal, and are not sedition.

They are ridiculous, stupid and absurd, but they are not sedition. They are written into the process.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Let it play out.

I believe that the system will generate the correct result.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Easy for us to say let it play out...

Folks in DC are bracing for violence on the 6th because the President called for a protest. The President called for a protest so now the nation's capitol will have the National Guard on the streets to prevent violence. The President...

I wonder at what point does his rhetoric to incite overturning an election cross into SEDITION?
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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I don't think rhetoric about an election would ever turn into sedition. We have freedom of speech. You can diss the government any way you want. You can say anything you want about an election, votes, voting machines, fraud or votes cast by little green men from Mars.

Rhetoric would have to advocate the violent overthrow of the government to even be considered for a charge of sedition.

An election, votes, opinions, and the violent overthrow of the government are very different things, and very different lines of rhetoric.

I've never heard Trump advocate the overthrow of our government, because he wants to be president. As long as he's talking about staying in office, he is not talking about destroying the government. In fact, he's talking about maintaining the government with him as president.

Using the government, staying in office is not overthrowing that government.

He's a criminal, in my opinion, following his call to Georgia. He's broken his oath countless times, but in my opinion he hasn't committed treason or sedition.

And finally, this is all off the top of my head, from the deep well of my brilliant, such-as-it-is brain. I don't know anything about Georgia state law, the relevant federal statutes about treason or sedition, but straight from the "It Seems To Me That" department of the committee that lives in my brain, this is what I think. If someone has citations and case law for me to learn, and cares to show me, I'll be happy to change what I believe.

Fifteen days and a wake up.
Last edited by Ylatkit on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
"When I have your wounded." -- Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff", refusing to acknowledge that an L.Z. was too hot, moments before being killed by a single shot, July 1st, 1964.

"Touch it, dude!"

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Thinking ahead, how will those in congress and the senate who didn't advocate sedition keep those who did out of various committees? I don't like the idea of the seditious minded making decisions about Intelligence matters behind closed doors.

/its sedition.
I don't like to think of my self as an artist so much as someone who stares at empty spaces and imagines s--t.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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Ylatkit wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:21 am I don't think rhetoric about an election would ever turn into sedition. We have freedom of speech. You can diss the government any way you want. You can say anything you want about an election, votes, voting machines, fraud or votes cast by little green men from Mars.

Rhetoric would have to advocate the violent overthrow of the government to even be considered for a charge of sedition.

An election, votes, opinions, and the violent overthrow of the government are very different things, and very different lines of rhetoric.

I've never heard Trump advocate the overthrow of our government, because he wants to be president. As long as he's talking about staying in office, he is not talking about destroying the government. In fact, he's talking about maintaining the government with him as president.

Using the government, staying in office is not overthrowing that government.

He's a criminal, in my opinion, following his call to Georgia. He's broken his oath countless times, but in my opinion he hasn't committed treason or sedition.

And finally, this is all off the top of my head, from the deep well of my brilliant, such-as-it-is brain. I don't know anything about Georgia state law, the relevant federal statutes about treason or sedition, but straight from the "It Seems To Me That" department of the committee that lives in my brain, this is what I think. If someone has citations and case law for me to learn, and cares to show me, I'll be happy to change what I believe.

Fifteen days and a wake up.
This doesn't logically follow. Trump is NOT advocating maintaining our government: He's advocating overthrowing it to make himself dictator, following the very same pattern as Putin, Erdogan, and Viktor Orban have done. Elected legitimately to office (at least the first time) they each then poisoned and undermined the entire judiciary, executive branch, and legislature to acquire virtually unlimited power. "Coup" is the vernacular but there is a particular term for such an internal overthrow of government (which I can't remember--"auto..." something). Since in each case, and in Trump's violence against opposition is both explicit and implicit, that fits the LEGAL definition of Sedition--to advocate the overthrow of the current government through force or violence.

A key part to our government, as you point out, is freedom of speech. Last summer we saw Trump EXPLICITLY use violence to silence peaceful protests. We've seen him implicitly threaten violence in general and against Raffensperger and his attorney, Ryan Germany. He's threatened violence against his opponents since he "suggested" that if Hillary Clinton won in 2016, there would be a "2nd Amendment solution"--assassination.

Trump is a mob boss. He rarely explicitly demands a crime be committed, although he repeatedly came close in the "phone call", but like Henry II asking "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" resulted in the murder of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas a Becket, Trump is inciting and calling for crimes against our nation to retain office.

That IS sedition.

There IS a legal way to overthrow our government (and voting the bums out only overthrows the people, not the government), and that is via the Constitutional Amendment process which can change anything and everything that came before it. (Also, ratified treaties are, by definition, Constitutional, but if a treaty made a major change to the Constitution, it's not clear it would stand up to judicial review. This was actually the REAL reason the League of Nations treaty was not ratified. It would explicitly transfer the power to declare war from Congress to the President. Only a few of the opposing Senators who barely prevented it from getting that 2/3 majority were isolationist)
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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I read an interesting perspective from a lawyer who stated that, technically, for Trump's call to be illegal or treasonous it would have to be proven that he *knows* that he lost the election and is making a genuine attempt to take it. Otherwise, it could be argued that because he *believes* that he actually won he was just doing all that he could to "stop the steal." The beauties of legalese.

...Try proving that that guy actually *knows* anything...

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:33 am I read an interesting perspective from a lawyer who stated that, technically, for Trump's call to be illegal or treasonous it would have to be proven that he *knows* that he lost the election and is making a genuine attempt to take it. Otherwise, it could be argued that because he *believes* that he actually won he was just doing all that he could to "stop the steal." The beauties of legalese.

...Try proving that that guy actually *knows* anything...
Sounds like the insanity defense.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:35 am
keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:33 am I read an interesting perspective from a lawyer who stated that, technically, for Trump's call to be illegal or treasonous it would have to be proven that he *knows* that he lost the election and is making a genuine attempt to take it. Otherwise, it could be argued that because he *believes* that he actually won he was just doing all that he could to "stop the steal." The beauties of legalese.

...Try proving that that guy actually *knows* anything...
Sounds like the insanity defense.
Which is not crazy at all if his end game is to actually get out of office but with a riled up base to subscribe to his new broadcasting venture while completely avoiding all liability and prosecution. Got to maintain the fervent and irrational ire of the masses to stay tuned in once he loses the bully pulpit.

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:35 am
keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:33 am I read an interesting perspective from a lawyer who stated that, technically, for Trump's call to be illegal or treasonous it would have to be proven that he *knows* that he lost the election and is making a genuine attempt to take it. Otherwise, it could be argued that because he *believes* that he actually won he was just doing all that he could to "stop the steal." The beauties of legalese.

...Try proving that that guy actually *knows* anything...
Sounds like the insanity defense.
But it is exactly the same defense that was used during the impeachment trial and that was affirmed by the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS; if the President is acting in what he believes is in the best interest of the nation his acts cannot rise to the leave of High Crimes or Misdemeanors.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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sig230 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:44 am
YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:35 am
keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:33 am I read an interesting perspective from a lawyer who stated that, technically, for Trump's call to be illegal or treasonous it would have to be proven that he *knows* that he lost the election and is making a genuine attempt to take it. Otherwise, it could be argued that because he *believes* that he actually won he was just doing all that he could to "stop the steal." The beauties of legalese.

...Try proving that that guy actually *knows* anything...
Sounds like the insanity defense.
But it is exactly the same defense that was used during the impeachment trial and that was affirmed by the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS; if the President is acting in what he believes is in the best interest of the nation his acts cannot rise to the leave of High Crimes or Misdemeanors.
I think it will be idiotically easy to demonstrate that Trump has done little if ANYTHING that he believed was in the best interest of the nation and not himself. EVERYTHING he has done all his life has been solely and only in his own self-interest, from cheating on his SAT exams, to suing people who saved his ass (like Barbara Corcoran), to breaking EVERY promise he ever made, to all the debts he defaulted on, to laundering money for Russian criminals, to turning over critical confidential information to Russian officials right in the Oval Office, to these absurd 70 cases ALL rejected, even by judges he appointed, to attempting to extort Raffensperger to alter the Georgia results, to last night saying he would refuse to leave the White House.

Remember: The CJ does nothing more than preside over a Presidential Impeachment, because the Vice-President would not be a disinterested presider.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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Image



Yeah: Its sedition. And negligent homicide. I surely want him detained before he can escape.

If he escapes, Marvin the Martian will be very, very angry.

marvin2.jpeg
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CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eye Jack

Re: Worse Than Treason?

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In Georgia, 10,971 people have died from Covid-19, nearly the 11,780 votes he demanded.

They didn't die just because he's an idiot, but because he's a malevolent, narcissistic, sadistic idiot.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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