The Liberal Gun Club Forum

mark wrote:Charlie, some numbers for the US:

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_stud ... y-2009.pdf

I agree that we have problems in the U.S. with the way healthcare is run. I don't think you can find a post where I have said that it does not have problems.

Other systems have problems as well. I have tried to provide this information to keep everyone here informed about healthcare problems in other first world countries. I do this not provide this information in attempts to say that we should keep the system in the states as it is, but so in our change we do not make the same mistakes other countries have made.


Charlie

masonalannz wrote: So, you are living in Germany. Are you being paid by a German company in Euros, paying income tax and utilizing their state run health care system or are you there as Military/Military Contractor or Civil Service where you live there but you are paid in dollars and your healthcare is provided in the same way as it would be were you living in the US?

Leucoandro wrote:I am in the military.
From '03-'05, I lived in Germany and had a had a german girlfriend durring that entire time. She was on the public system. Her father was on the private system (people in Germany designated as "persons of national importance" are provided with private healthcare. Her grandparents and mother were on the public system.

From '05-07, I lived in Okinawa, my experience there was more limited, but I did talk about the system with my Okinawan friends.

From '07-'08, I lived in Honduras, where I met my wife. I am fairly familiar with the Honduran system, and my wife can provide more information should you desire.

From '08-present day, I have lived in Germany. While I primarily utilize the military healthcare system (really not wild about it [It is as bad as the rumors of the UK healthcare system]), my wife has private insurance and primarily utilizes the German Healthcare system.


Charlie

So you are currently on single payer health care and if you retire from the military you will be for the rest of your life. It's OK for you to have free, no hassle health care and will be fine for you to use the private system and tri-care once you are out but the rest of the country is on their own?

What are your problems with military health care? I found it very easy. Just like in NZ, when you're sick or injured you go to the doctor, they fix you up and you walk away with no bill and no worries. Sometimes it takes a while to get an appointment or there are conflicts with duty but other than that it was very good IMO.

Hell you don't even have to worry about scheduling you're checkups, it's just done for you.

I smell big time hippocracy whenever I hear someone in or retired from the military railing against single payer.

Leucoandro wrote:

mark wrote:Charlie, some numbers for the US:



I agree that we have problems in the U.S. with the way healthcare is run. I don't think you can find a post where I have said that it does not have problems.

Other systems have problems as well. I have tried to provide this information to keep everyone here informed about healthcare problems in other first world countries. I do this not provide this information in attempts to say that we should keep the system in the states as it is, but so in our change we do not make the same mistakes other countries have made.


Charlie

Fair enough. Noneof the systems are perfect- hopefully we can learn from all of them.

masonalannz wrote:

masonalannz wrote: So, you are living in Germany. Are you being paid by a German company in Euros, paying income tax and utilizing their state run health care system or are you there as Military/Military Contractor or Civil Service where you live there but you are paid in dollars and your healthcare is provided in the same way as it would be were you living in the US?

Leucoandro wrote:I am in the military.
From '03-'05, I lived in Germany and had a had a german girlfriend durring that entire time. She was on the public system. Her father was on the private system (people in Germany designated as "persons of national importance" are provided with private healthcare. Her grandparents and mother were on the public system.

From '05-07, I lived in Okinawa, my experience there was more limited, but I did talk about the system with my Okinawan friends.

From '07-'08, I lived in Honduras, where I met my wife. I am fairly familiar with the Honduran system, and my wife can provide more information should you desire.

From '08-present day, I have lived in Germany. While I primarily utilize the military healthcare system (really not wild about it [It is as bad as the rumors of the UK healthcare system]), my wife has private insurance and primarily utilizes the German Healthcare system.


Charlie

masonalannz wrote:So you are currently on single payer health care and if you retire from the military you will be for the rest of your life. It's OK for you to have free, no hassle health care and will be fine for you to use the private system and tri-care once you are out but the rest of the country is on their own?

I am really not sure about how exactly how the retired military healthcare is currently run. If I stay in the military until retirement it is almost certain to be different than it is today. I do understand from those that I know that have retired, it is in your best interest to have a basic private healthcare plan to augment your military plan (which you must pay for after you retire, in addition to copays, etc)

Could you quote me to back up your accertation that I I feel the rest of the country should be on its own?

BTW, my free healthcare comes at the cost of being payed about 40-60% less than a person with the same job on the civilian side. It is one of the military "perks" to help ballance out the difference between military pay and civilian pay.

The system only allows me to see military doctors unless I recieve approval from my military private care provider. I can be punished and fined by the military for visiting a doctor outside of the military without permission.

masonalannz wrote:What are your problems with military health care? I found it very easy. Just like in NZ, when you're sick or injured you go to the doctor, they fix you up and you walk away with no bill and no worries. Sometimes it takes a while to get an appointment or there are conflicts with duty but other than that it was very good IMO.

Problems? Well with most military hospitals ibuprofen will cure anything (Hurlburt field is one of the few exceptions to the rule I have found). I have to beg for a penicillin shot when I get strep throat (even then I only have only recieved the shot about 30% of the time). I have been turned down for treatment with nail fungus (nails are flaking off and it is quiet painful), but the doctors will not treat it until my nails start to actually fall off. Doctors have no accountability. A dentist's drill slipped in my mouth once, requiring a fare bit of repair work, he was not held responsible. Recently I fell and cracked my sternum. I tried to go to the military hospital for treatment complaining of chest pain from the fall (it really did hurt and still hurts 3 weeks later), I have yet to see a doctor. This is why I went for the private healthcare option of Tri-care for my wife and son. Military healthcare is very good at getting you well enough to go to work and do your job, but it (as a whole) is not very good at curing you when you are sick.

masonalannz wrote:Hell you don't even have to worry about scheduling you're checkups, it's just done for you.

Actually yes I do, and if I forget to schedule my checkup on time, I can be punished, and have pay withdrawn until I am current.

masonalannz wrote:I smell big time hippocracy whenever I hear someone in or retired from the military railing against single payer.

I see the flaws in the military system, and I would like to see the rest of the country not make that mistake. If you want the same single payer plan, go for it. I am sure that it will come to the rest of the U.S. soon enough. If you want it sooner, just join up like me. Wouldn't you like to serve the country you now call home, just like I do?

I have lived in 4 countries for signifigant amounts of time. I have observed the way different countries run healthcare and the impacts on the citizens. I have observed 3 healthcare systems in the states (private, public, and military), 2 systems in Germany (private and public), One system in Okinawa (public), and One system in Honduras (private). While my opinions of what is acceptable and not acceptable might be different from yours, I suspect that quiet a few people share some of my concerns (and no i am not rallying for insurance companies).

Anyways, if you would like to talk about this more, maybe we should start another thread. I was really hoping to see where allserene's thread would go with the different aspects of what should or should not be allowed in the U.S., and how it is different from other countries, along with possible solutions.


Charlie

mark wrote:

Leucoandro wrote:

mark wrote:Charlie, some numbers for the US:



I agree that we have problems in the U.S. with the way healthcare is run. I don't think you can find a post where I have said that it does not have problems.

Other systems have problems as well. I have tried to provide this information to keep everyone here informed about healthcare problems in other first world countries. I do this not provide this information in attempts to say that we should keep the system in the states as it is, but so in our change we do not make the same mistakes other countries have made.


Charlie

Fair enough. Noneof the systems are perfect- hopefully we can learn from all of them.

That is my hope.

Why not go with something like what France has.

Universal healthcare with the option to supplement it with private insurance. Most people in France do opt for private insurance, but it helps with stuff like help with childcare during maternity leave, etc. and for elective surgery. For anything major, even folks with great insurance plans over there opt to go with the public hospitals, etc.

Wurble wrote:Why not go with something like what France has.

Universal healthcare with the option to supplement it with private insurance. Most people in France do opt for private insurance, but it helps with stuff like help with childcare during maternity leave, etc. and for elective surgery. For anything major, even folks with great insurance plans over there opt to go with the public hospitals, etc.

This is one that I have wondered about. It seems in theory it could work really well. I have very little knowledge of the French system. The only thing I know about France is the ambulatory service follows the same protocol as Germany. From what I have seen, the Emergency care system in the U.S. (for situation such as car wrecks, etc.) is far better than that of Germany.

My question is what would be covered under the public plan, and what standard options would you expect under private coverage?

Germans (or at least the ones I know) really do not use overlaping plans (public and private). I have found that my wife with Private insurance is moved to the front of the line in visits to the E.R. While pregnant my wife was seen about four times as often by the OBGYN as those on the public plan. My wife and son still have to share a room when staying over night at the hospital. The last time my son was in the hospital it was because he hit his head. He had to share a room with a child with bronchitis. Shortly after his stay at the hospital, both my son and I came down with bronchitis (we were both miserable).


Charlie

Leucoandro wrote:Wouldn't you like to serve the country you now call home, just like I do?

OK, I will answer this one for him ... he already has. As have many others on the forums - myself not included.

I am very skeptical of regulation of any kind, but I especially don't trust the Federal or State governments with this. They have unquestionably proven that they are immune to popular opprobium or control and that their 'interests' lie with cartelized industries and parasitical bureaucracies.

Almost certainly spam.

ArmedAznF wrote:I am very skeptical of regulation of any kind, but I especially don't trust the Federal or State governments with this. They have unquestionably proven that they are immune to popular opprobium or control and that their 'interests' lie with cartelized industries and parasitical bureaucracies.

It's the individual people in the offices of city hall who have, one by one, little by little, become disgusted with the idiocy and gullibility of the population to the point where they largely stop caring what the people say. Remember that the ones who give feedback are the folks who are dissatisfied, and that crowd has been shifting more and more into the style of "Keep your government off my medicare". Seriously, when you've got people upset about a bump in taxes that is only enough to keep pace with inflation, but also complaining about the state of the local public library, that's airhead idiocy. When you've got people who stand up in local municipal meetings against a tax hike for a new school, but then turn around and bitch because their little johnny has to walk outside in the rain to get to the temporary classroom trailers, that's moronic complaining.

It's entirely reasonable to expect people to ignore the public, when that public pisses and moans about the innate evil of government but also gets a bug up their ass because it took several days to replace the bulb in the streetlight at the corner. If that's the type of criticism coming at me, I'd become immune to whatever the popular opinion as well.

Like a garden, we get the government that we grow. Neglect it to the weeds, give it the warm piss of criticism for water and no fertilizer, expect the fruit to be bitter and small. To have a responsive government that provides sweet bounty, gotta put in the time to keep it free of weeds and give it plenty of clean sustenance (taxes). That's even biblical in nature - you reap what you sow.