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I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:11 pm
by Mason
and hunt. Not because I have some media driven overinflated view that I'm some kind of a badass or potential victim.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:15 pm
by mark
masonalannz wrote:and hunt. Not because I have some media driven overinflated view that I'm some kind of a badass or potential victim.
Easy killer - we still love you
I just like to shoot, I don't even hunt. Although, I do admit that one of my main reasons for having the guns I have is for self defense in my home.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:25 am
by Antiquus
You aren't a good candidate for the RKBA group over at Daily Kos then. We have been insulted and assaulted with every left wing cliche in existence and then they invented new ones just for us. KVoimakas has the patience of the sainted dealing with that every week, week in and week out. I can always take a week off.
I posted a
diary yesterday to try to counter another diary with some over the top statements about hollow points, and 40% of the comments were just typical left wing smears, 40% were the RKBA group doing their typical awesome job defending my butt, and 20% of the comments were the ones that make you want to go write another diary.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:56 am
by KVoimakas
Antiquus wrote: You aren't a good candidate for the RKBA group over at Daily Kos then. We have been insulted and assaulted with every left wing cliche in existence and then they invented new ones just for us. KVoimakas has the patience of the sainted dealing with that every week, week in and week out. I can always take a week off.
I posted a
diary yesterday to try to counter another diary with some over the top statements about hollow points, and 40% of the comments were just typical left wing smears, 40% were the RKBA group doing their typical awesome job defending my butt, and 20% of the comments were the ones that make you want to go write another diary.
Patience of a saint? Eh, I just like a good argument/debate.
Though sometimes it gets to me. Then I want to respond with something like
"What kind of a** licking, sh** eating, right wing fellating, lamp raping, typical head-in-the-a**, anal seepage, don't-give-a-d***-about-the-facts-ma'am response is that?"
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:04 am
by Paladin
I'm going to use mine to defend my property from the government.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:27 am
by AdAstra
...zombies and cannibals. Just you wait until the apocalypse comes and society breaks down, I'll be shooting everything and everyone like there is no tomorrow (and there isn't!), protecting my gold and silver stash in my underground bunker...
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:28 am
by Sonofagun
I'm gonna clean the shit out of mine till it's worn out.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:32 am
by Simmer down
I shoot because I like to know at least a little bit about a lot of things.
The guns I favor are unique and I see them as art and tool.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:08 am
by FrontSight
masonalannz wrote:and hunt. Not because I have some media driven overinflated view that I'm some kind of a badass or potential victim.
And that's cool, I think most of us are in that category. But if someone were to break into your house and intended harm to your family, I'm betting you'd use a firearm in defense. And it's reassuring that in this nation we have a right to self defense. It seems silly, but many nations do not give you the right to defend yourself; that's really sad.
As most know, I'm a "hired gun" and carry for a living, so often it's this annoying tool I carry in by "tool belt" (yeah, that's right...I'm batman
), and while I have drawn my weapon in defense before, I pray to God every day I NEVER have to use it for anything other than a good time at the range.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:29 am
by AdAstra
FrontSight wrote:And it's reassuring that in this nation we have a right to self defense. It seems silly, but many nations do not give you the right to defend yourself; that's really sad.
Right to guns
=/= right to defend yourself. Everyone in every nation has a right to defend themselves.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:31 am
by KVoimakas
AdAstra wrote:FrontSight wrote:And it's reassuring that in this nation we have a right to self defense. It seems silly, but many nations do not give you the right to defend yourself; that's really sad.
Right to guns
=/= right to defend yourself. Everyone in every nation has a right to defend themselves.
Right to firearms = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:35 am
by AdAstra
KVoimakas wrote:AdAstra wrote:FrontSight wrote:And it's reassuring that in this nation we have a right to self defense. It seems silly, but many nations do not give you the right to defend yourself; that's really sad.
Right to guns
=/= right to defend yourself. Everyone in every nation has a right to defend themselves.
Right to firearms = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Right to martial arts/mace/taser/tear gas/bionic arms/spike/sword/shurikens/Dobermann/cat army = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Statement still stands, right to guns
=/= right to defend yourself.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:38 am
by KVoimakas
AdAstra wrote:
Right to guns =/= right to defend yourself. Everyone in every nation has a right to defend themselves.
Right to firearms = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Right to martial arts/mace/taser/tear gas/bionic arms/spike/sword/shurikens/Dobermann/cat army = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Statement still stands, right to guns =/= right to defend yourself.
I don't have a right to taser.
I don't have a right to tear gas.
Mace is a friggin' joke. I know from experience.
Bionic arms?
Martial arts: sure I have the right but not the ability.
No right to a sword.
No right to shurikens.
No right to a dog.
No right to a cat army.
Firearms are the most effective form of self defense once retreating is no longer an option.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:46 am
by FrontSight
While every nation gives one the right to "defend" themselves, if your attacker is killed in the process, there are many nations who will lock you up. If you use some sort of weapon (doesn't have to be a gun), often you can find yourself in hot water. While technically everyone has a right to defense, there are a lot of nations (and even a couple of states here in the US), that make it extremely difficult, nearly impossible to EFFECTIVELY defend yourself, not to mention the ability to even the odds if you're of lesser physical capacity.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:49 am
by AdAstra
KVoimakas wrote:AdAstra wrote:
Right to guns =/= right to defend yourself. Everyone in every nation has a right to defend themselves.
Right to firearms = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Right to martial arts/mace/taser/tear gas/bionic arms/spike/sword/shurikens/Dobermann/cat army = right to defend yourself effectively against those who also have firearms
= right to defend yourself effectively against a group of unarmed bad guys
= right to defend yourself effectively against a bad guy with a blade
Statement still stands, right to guns =/= right to defend yourself.
I don't have a right to taser.
I don't have a right to tear gas.
Mace is a friggin' joke. I know from experience.
Bionic arms?
Martial arts: sure I have the right but not the ability.
No right to a sword.
No right to shurikens.
No right to a dog.
No right to a cat army.
Firearms are the most effective form of self defense once retreating is no longer an option.
You're missing the point. Equating the right to defend yourself to the right to own guns is bullshit, and you know it. Not having a gun DOES NOT MEAN your right to defend yourself is forfeit. Effectiveness of weapon has nothing to do with it, so don't confuse those two different issues.
This reductio ad absurdum argument does no one any good, least of all gun owners.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:51 am
by KVoimakas
AdAstra wrote:
You're missing the point. Equating the right to defend yourself to the right to own guns is bullshit, and you know it. Not having a gun DOES NOT MEAN your right to defend yourself is forfeit. Effectiveness of weapon has nothing to do with it, so don't confuse those two different issues.
This reductio ad absurdum argument does no one any good, least of all gun owners.
What good is a right with no proper or effective way to exercise it?
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:56 am
by AdAstra
FrontSight wrote:While every nation gives one the right to "defend" themselves, if your attacker is killed in the process, there are many nations who will lock you up. If you use some sort of weapon (doesn't have to be a gun), often you can find yourself in hot water.
What's the difference here in the US? Home defenders are still subject to inquisition and due process - no one gets a free unquestioned pass.
FrontSight wrote:
While technically everyone has a right to defense, there are a lot of nations (and even a couple of states here in the US), that make it extremely difficult, nearly impossible to EFFECTIVELY defend yourself, not to mention the ability to even the odds if you're of lesser physical capacity.
Effectiveness of defense is a different issue. Do not tie this with the right to defend yourself, as the two are not appropriately intertwined. As you yourself in previous threads have stated, if weapon choice is not relevant in killing others, and that you can harm or kill many people by a multitude of ways other than guns, why is it that you think right to guns = right to defend yourself?
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:05 am
by mark
Yes, there are other ways to defend ones self. And the right to defend oneself does not, necessarily, mean that you have the right o have a gun. But I think the 'guns are the great equalizer' is best argument for guns as self defense. As I age, and my physical abilities start to lose their edge, I can appreciate the benefit of an equalizer. My mother has a handgun in her nightstand - it gives her a chance against what would otherwise be overwhelming force. A doberman is a nice defense, and a great alarm, but they are easily defeated with the right tools - gun, steak?
And just to throw fuel on the fire, the supreme court did rule that the right to have a handgun for self defense is 'fundamental'.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/29 ... s-20100629
Of course, it was a divided 5-4 court, not nearly a unanimous decision.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:05 am
by AdAstra
KVoimakas wrote:AdAstra wrote:
You're missing the point. Equating the right to defend yourself to the right to own guns is bullshit, and you know it. Not having a gun DOES NOT MEAN your right to defend yourself is forfeit. Effectiveness of weapon has nothing to do with it, so don't confuse those two different issues.
This reductio ad absurdum argument does no one any good, least of all gun owners.
What good is a right with no proper or effective way to exercise it?
Question is not relevant to the issue: you can take up effectiveness of guns with the 3 branches. Some capable men can defend themselves without guns against the antagonists you mentioned. However, by your definition, if they don't have the right to own guns then they have no right to defend themselves, and they should just give in. That's a little ridiculous, no?
The fact is that the right to own guns =/= right to defend yourself. Other than firearms, you can defend yourself with whatever tools and means are available at the time, and many people throughout history have done just that. The fact that a gun may make it easier for you does not mean the right to own one is the only way you have a right to protect yourself. Can't make it any clearer than that.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:12 am
by KVoimakas
However, by your definition, if they don't have the right to own guns then they have no right to defend themselves, and they should just give in. That's a little ridiculous, no?
Actually, what I was thinking of was that removing the right to own firearms is removing the most effective way to defend yourself, sans retreating.
I agree with your last paragraph above and didn't it as no firearms = no right to self defense. It was more along the lines of no firearms = crappy self defense against someone with a firearm, people in groups, etc.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:17 am
by AdAstra
mark wrote:Yes, there are other ways to defend ones self. And the right to defend oneself does not, necessarily, mean that you have the right o have a gun.
And that's the end of what my beef is. We agree then.
mark wrote:
But I think the 'guns are the great equalizer' is best argument for guns as self defense. As I age, and my physical abilities start to lose their edge, I can appreciate the benefit of an equalizer. My mother has a handgun in her nightstand - it gives her a chance against what would otherwise be overwhelming force. A doberman is a nice defense, and a great alarm, but they are easily defeated with the right tools - gun, steak?
I also agree, but this is a distinct, different point of contention (and law) than the above.
That's nowhere near the same as saying right to gun = right to self defense.
'In a 5-4 decision, the justices said the
right to have a handgun for self-defense is "fundamental from an American perspective [and] applies equally to the federal government and the states."'
What that says is the right to have a handgun FOR self defense is fundamental - that's just reinforcing the 2nd Amendment. It does NOT say that the right to have a handgun is fundamental for the right to self-defense: nothing like it at all.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:23 am
by FrontSight
AdAstra wrote:What that says is the right to have a handgun FOR self defense is fundamental - that's just reinforcing the 2nd Amendment. It does NOT say that the right to have a handgun is fundamental for the right to self-defense: nothing like it at all.
But wouldn’t the right to a handgun
for self defense at least presume a right to defense? I think the difference is, while it may recognize the right to self defense, it doesn’t define it and the definition of the limitations to that right are still left to the states.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:39 am
by AmirMortal
Pedantic. There, I said it.
What that says is the right to have a handgun FOR self defense is fundamental - that's just reinforcing the 2nd Amendment. It does NOT say that the right to have a handgun is fundamental for the right to self-defense: nothing like it at all.
You must be a relatively young, and strong, and physically fit person. For many of the elderly, the physically weak, smaller of stature, etc, the right to defend oneself effectively and the right to own a gun are one and the same. You cannot seriously believe that a frail octogenarian with osteoporosis is really free to defend themselves if they are limited to a bat or knife, that would be completely ridiculous. If you do than you are being willfully obtuse.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:29 pm
by stickman
AmirMortal wrote: You cannot seriously believe that a frail octogenarian with osteoporosis is really free to defend themselves if they are limited to a bat or knife, that would be completely ridiculous. If you do than you are being willfully obtuse.
I just had a terrifying mental picture of my great aunt (late 80's) with a baseball bat. I think she could take all comers.
Re: I like guns because I like to shoot...
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:58 pm
by JayFromPA
I noticed as I read through the Heller case that the logic seemed to be built in a manner that was flexible toward future defense developments.
As in, the right is to defend yourself, in the best manner commonly available.
200 years ago, the "best" manner "commonly available" was muskets and such, or whatever a historian will declare as I'm not sure of the facts.
Right now, the "best" manner "commonly available" is a handgun. Therefore, the 2A is currently protecting the right to keep and bear handguns.
In 500 years, the "best" manner "commonly available" may well be shoulder mounted 360-degree energy beam weapons. If that is the case, then the 2A will be protecting the right to keep and bear those things.