The Liberal Gun Club Forum

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/eSmKPbNsyio

This is the crap that has people scared and thinking an AR15 is what you need for home defense, whatever that is. What couple of douchebags. Fred should just grow a pair.

You do know that the NSSF is a coalition of arms producers, right? Their website even admits they are a "firearms industry trade association". Of course they will try to convince people they need more and bigger - that is their job. Its like the automotive association telling you all about how you need four wheel steering.

Um, I didn't see any problem whatsoever with that video.

It was a pretty good instructional video actually. If I ever do 3-gun competitions, that info would definitely come in handy.

masonalannz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/eSmKPbNsyio

This is the crap that has people scared and thinking an AR15 is what you need for home defense, whatever that is. What couple of douchebags. Fred should just grow a pair.

Mason I think you are getting much to emotional over Tuscon, the simple fact is that this clown would have killed more people if he ran through the crowd swinging a machete, the glock in 9mm is a stupid gun especially with an extended mag. Its all about marketing and selling to people and personally I would rather that slobs buy slob guns rather than buy a good gun and learn how to use them effectively. I try not to get this emotional on the subject but I'm drunk and people have as much right to buy ARs in this country as plastic stocked muzzle loaders that use 209 primers and phony black powder during a "primitive " hunting season.

eelj wrote:

masonalannz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/eSmKPbNsyio

This is the crap that has people scared and thinking an AR15 is what you need for home defense, whatever that is. What couple of douchebags. Fred should just grow a pair.

Mason I think you are getting much to emotional over Tuscon, the simple fact is that this clown would have killed more people if he ran through the crowd swinging a machete, the glock in 9mm is a stupid gun especially with an extended mag. Its all about marketing and selling to people and personally I would rather that slobs buy slob guns rather than buy a good gun and learn how to use them effectively. I try not to get this emotional on the subject but I'm drunk and people have as much right to buy ARs in this country as plastic stocked muzzle loaders that use 209 primers and phony black powder during a "primitive " hunting season.

You picked the wrong analogy, Lee. I can tell you for a FACT that that clown would NOT have killed as many people running through the crowd with a machete.

Bull shit the weapon choice is irrelevent its the intent of the perpetrator. I like you Mason and I don't want to alienate you but you are just wrong, but I know what you are going through over this.

eelj wrote:Bull shit the weapon choice is irrelevent its the intent of the perpetrator. I like you Mason and I don't want to alienate you but you are just wrong, but I know what you are going through over this.

I think he was an EMT at a machete rampage tragedy .... so he feels he can comment on the amount of deaths in one vs the other with authority.

I don't think he would have killed more people with a machete, but there are tons more ways to kill more people without guns.

I think these were some good points, applicable for use of any long gun. Damn, even when using a pistol you can utilize everything this guy said, except cheek weld.

The other thing is that he's just using example of HD to emphasize importance of bringing elbows down and that advice can be again used everywhere. Not for a second I thought that this was a video telling people to use nothing less than AR for HD.

So to recap - everything they did in this video APPLIES TO AK AS WELL!

eelj wrote:Bull shit the weapon choice is irrelevent its the intent of the perpetrator. I like you Mason and I don't want to alienate you but you are just wrong, but I know what you are going through over this.

Well, I think someone can kill more people with grenades, or 100lbs of Semtex, or a flame thrower compared to a 2" pocket knife. I believe most people will say that choice of weapon is relevant.

I'm sure you'll reconsider your words when you sober up, eelj.

That was a nice, instructive video. I saw no douchebags in the clip nor anyone trying to scare people into getting AR15.

AdAstra wrote:

eelj wrote:Bull shit the weapon choice is irrelevent its the intent of the perpetrator. I like you Mason and I don't want to alienate you but you are just wrong, but I know what you are going through over this.

Well, I think someone can kill more people with grenades, or 100lbs of Semtex, or a flame thrower compared to a 2" pocket knife. I believe most people will say that choice of weapon is relevant.

I'm sure you'll reconsider your words when you sober up, eelj.

I've worked calls where someone just drove their car through the crowd at high speed. There was a crazy guy about two decades ago, who ran someone over, then took off. Waited for the rescue crew, and then ambushed the rescue crew and although he didn't technically kill anyone, he SEVERELY wounded the fire captain and a few others. One of the female medics there had some real psychological issues because this was the closest of a few other attempts to kill her in the previous few shifts; she really thought God was out to punch her ticket.

Then someone took a cue from Mr. Crazy and drove a big Cadillac through a crowd and killed about 7, and that was a small crowd who saw the guy coming a good 50 yards out. Sick SOB.

FrontSight wrote:

AdAstra wrote:

eelj wrote:Bull shit the weapon choice is irrelevent its the intent of the perpetrator. I like you Mason and I don't want to alienate you but you are just wrong, but I know what you are going through over this.

Well, I think someone can kill more people with grenades, or 100lbs of Semtex, or a flame thrower compared to a 2" pocket knife. I believe most people will say that choice of weapon is relevant.

I'm sure you'll reconsider your words when you sober up, eelj.

I've worked calls where someone just drove their car through the crowd at high speed. There was a crazy guy about two decades ago, who ran someone over, then took off. Waited for the rescue crew, and then ambushed the rescue crew and although he didn't technically kill anyone, he SEVERELY wounded the fire captain and a few others. One of the female medics there had some real psychological issues because this was the closest of a few other attempts to kill her in the previous few shifts; she really thought God was out to punch her ticket.

Then someone took a cue from Mr. Crazy and drove a big Cadillac through a crowd and killed about 7, and that was a small crowd who saw the guy coming a good 50 yards out. Sick SOB.

And if Mr Crazy used a truck instead, and drove through a crowded market, or used a flame thrower, he might have killed more people.

Choice of weapon is relevant.

mvelimir wrote:I think these were some good points, applicable for use of any long gun. Damn, even when using a pistol you can utilize everything this guy said, except cheek weld.

The other thing is that he's just using example of HD to emphasize importance of bringing elbows down and that advice can be again used everywhere. Not for a second I thought that this was a video telling people to use nothing less than AR for HD.

So to recap - everything they did in this video APPLIES TO AK AS WELL!

+1
I've been nailing these points with my son "9" while shooting our AK. He's small for now and needs to be stable. Form is everything and not once did my ass feel threatened by invasion of a quick sale. Fred looks tired.

I think he should have rehearsed his performance with his companion before the show, but overall, I have no problem with that video.

eelj wrote:

masonalannz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/eSmKPbNsyio

This is the crap that has people scared and thinking an AR15 is what you need for home defense, whatever that is. What couple of douchebags. Fred should just grow a pair.

Mason I think you are getting much to emotional over Tuscon, the simple fact is that this clown would have killed more people if he ran through the crowd swinging a machete, the glock in 9mm is a stupid gun especially with an extended mag. Its all about marketing and selling to people and personally I would rather that slobs buy slob guns rather than buy a good gun and learn how to use them effectively. I try not to get this emotional on the subject but I'm drunk and people have as much right to buy ARs in this country as plastic stocked muzzle loaders that use 209 primers and phony black powder during a "primitive " hunting season.

You're drunk so I'm not going to take offence at the glock comment =Þ. Just going to put in MHO.

Glocks are ugly and utilitarian, but they're easy to learn and use. They're comfortable in the hand (well, my hand). The 9mm has very manageable recoil. With hollow points, it has plenty of stopping power. The G17 seems to me like a perfectly reasonable home defense/personal defense gun. I never plan to shoot further than 50 feet with it in a self defense role, and at that range I can keep all my shots on a torso-sized target (and I am not a pistol marksman).

As for the extended mag, I have a single 17-round magazine and two 10-round magazines. I keep 10 rounds in the pistol, 15 in the high-cap mag as a backup, and figure if I ever need more than that I'm in over my head anyways.

As for using a carbine in a home defense scenario, why? What possible reason is there for using anything but a shotgun or a pistol when in your home? Do you have a 75-yard hallway you might need to hold against 20 meth-crazed gang members? Are you going to need to barricade yourself in a third story room and snipe zombies while waiting for the cavalry? I live in the city, so I'm very worried about over-penetration, but even if you live in the Middle of Fucking Nowhere wouldn't you be worried about punching a hole through your car/refrigerator/family-member-in-the-next-room?

I do agree that those 33 round magazines for the glock are silly, but I hesitate to suggest we ban anything. I want a better system for screening before handing out gun permits. I want a better national system to make sure guns don't get in to the hands of criminals or the mentally incompetent. I want a better system to punish straw purchasers. What I don't want is another set of byzantine rules that just give us security theater, like all the BS at the airport.

stickman wrote: As for using a carbine in a home defense scenario, why? What possible reason is there for using anything but a shotgun or a pistol when in your home? Do you have a 75-yard hallway you might need to hold against 20 meth-crazed gang members? Are you going to need to barricade yourself in a third story room and snipe zombies while waiting for the cavalry? I live in the city, so I'm very worried about over-penetration, but even if you live in the Middle of Fucking Nowhere wouldn't you be worried about punching a hole through your car/refrigerator/family-member-in-the-next-room?

I'd prefer a carbine to a shotgun. Recoil is more manageable. We cannot assume we will be on target with every single shot, even with a shotgun. Remember that shot spread at HD distances is minimal. You may have to have 1 or several follow-up shots. A carbine is better for that than a shotgun.

Honestly, the only really big negative with it is how a jury would look at it. They'll say "he killed that poor home invading gang member with an evil AK! String him up!"

I do agree that those 33 round magazines for the glock are silly, but I hesitate to suggest we ban anything. I want a better system for screening before handing out gun permits. I want a better national system to make sure guns don't get in to the hands of criminals or the mentally incompetent. I want a better system to punish straw purchasers. What I don't want is another set of byzantine rules that just give us security theater, like all the BS at the airport.

The ONLY way this tragedy could have been prevented is by someone getting this guy some mental help. Gun regulations would have had no effect.

Wurble wrote: I'd prefer a carbine to a shotgun. Recoil is more manageable. We cannot assume we will be on target with every single shot, even with a shotgun. Remember that shot spread at HD distances is minimal. You may have to have 1 or several follow-up shots. A carbine is better for that than a shotgun.

Still doesn't solve the problem of over-penetration. With a shotgun and buckshot, past a certain distance it's unlikely to seriously wound an innocent bystander. With a slug, (I believe) it has too much mass and diameter to be at serious risk of passing through a person or a wall and still be lethal (yeah, I should probably check my facts on that, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come to the rescue). Me, I wouldn't use either. Give me a bright flashlight and my glock and a cell phone to call 911.

The ONLY way this tragedy could have been prevented is by someone getting this guy some mental help. Gun regulations would have had no effect.

I think we can have sensible regulation (I don't want automatic weapons easily available) at a federal level which can dovetail with improved mental health care, so we have a better system for identifying the dangerously ill and preventing them from obtaining firearms. I agree that the problem here wasn't that this psychotic individual was able to obtain a 33 round magazine. One problem is that he should have been receiving treatment for a clear mental illness, and the other problem is that he was able to obtain a gun (any gun) at all. Mental health treatment will take us a long way to preventing this kind of atrocity, I think intelligent regulation at the federal level (not more bans on evil looking guns) will take us even further.

I wonder if this sick individual would have been able to do the same thing in Massachusetts. When I went for my interview, it was quick, painless, and the LEO in charge barely said a word to me (mostly I spoke to the secretary). That might be because I have no criminal record and no record of mental health issues. It might have been because I shaved, combed my hair and put on a shirt and tie before the interview. Could Loughner have done that? I don't know. I'm not trying to say Massachusetts' gun laws are anything less than byzantine. I'm just saying maybe there is something to having a process for screening people before handing them an LTC.

stickman wrote: Still doesn't solve the problem of over-penetration. With a shotgun and buckshot, past a certain distance it's unlikely to seriously wound an innocent bystander. With a slug, (I believe) it has too much mass and diameter to be at serious risk of passing through a person or a wall and still be lethal (yeah, I should probably check my facts on that, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come to the rescue). Me, I wouldn't use either. Give me a bright flashlight and my glock and a cell phone to call 911.

Box o' truth proved that 00 buck will go straight through SEVERAL walls in a house and still penetrate a number of water jugs.

I think we can have sensible regulation (I don't want automatic weapons easily available) at a federal level which can dovetail with improved mental health care, so we have a better system for identifying the dangerously ill and preventing them from obtaining firearms. I agree that the problem here wasn't that this psychotic individual was able to obtain a 33 round magazine. One problem is that he should have been receiving treatment for a clear mental illness,

Agreed up to this point.

and the other problem is that he was able to obtain a gun (any gun) at all.

If by some miracle you were able to prevent him and only him from obtaining a gun from a gun store without violating the frack out of everyone else's rights, you wouldn't have stopped him from obtaining a gun. It's still easy enough for him to make a straw purchase, or even simply obtain a gun via the black market.

Mental health treatment will take us a long way to preventing this kind of atrocity,

Agreed.

I think intelligent regulation

oximoron when it comes to firearms. Might as well say fairies and dragons. History of gun control in this country has shown us that regulation of firearms in the USA only leads to the stripping of fundamental rights and contributes to danger in society.

I wonder if this sick individual would have been able to do the same thing in Massachusetts. When I went for my interview, it was quick, painless, and the LEO in charge barely said a word to me (mostly I spoke to the secretary). That might be because I have no criminal record and no record of mental health issues. It might have been because I shaved, combed my hair and put on a shirt and tie before the interview. Could Loughner have done that? I don't know. I'm not trying to say Massachusetts' gun laws are anything less than byzantine. I'm just saying maybe there is something to having a process for screening people before handing them an LTC.

Hey and maybe there's something to that Patriot Act too! Maybe we should do racial profiling at airports. Maybe we should let the police lock people up for looking funny.

Of course you'll prevent bad things if you are willing to trample on enough rights. But you're left with a police state full of subjects, not citizens.

eelj wrote:

masonalannz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/eSmKPbNsyio

This is the crap that has people scared and thinking an AR15 is what you need for home defense, whatever that is. What couple of douchebags. Fred should just grow a pair.

Mason I think you are getting much to emotional over Tuscon, the simple fact is that this clown would have killed more people if he ran through the crowd swinging a machete, the glock in 9mm is a stupid gun especially with an extended mag. Its all about marketing and selling to people and personally I would rather that slobs buy slob guns rather than buy a good gun and learn how to use them effectively. I try not to get this emotional on the subject but I'm drunk and people have as much right to buy ARs in this country as plastic stocked muzzle loaders that use 209 primers and phony black powder during a "primitive " hunting season.

Personally, I own an AR, it's fun to shoot, the ammo is relatively inexpensive, it's a well made accurate rifle … it's my range toy. As for the video, it was pretty standard competition shooting instruction and I didn't see anything that screamed right wing partisan point of view.

Please don't feed the extremists (on either side) or we'll never be able to release them back into the wild.

Wurble wrote: Box o' truth proved that 00 buck will go straight through SEVERAL walls in a house and still penetrate a number of water jugs.

Thanks for correcting me on that. My impression was that buckshot will lose enough velocity from hitting two sheets of drywall (ie, interior wall) and have a wide enough spread pattern past a certain distance that anyone unlucky enough to be hit unintentionally would have a high chance of survival and probably only superficial injuries. One more reason I will only use hollow points for self defense (unless I suddenly become rich and can afford frangible rounds, or a 1911 and a boatload of .45ACP).

If by some miracle you were able to prevent him and only him from obtaining a gun from a gun store without violating the frack out of everyone else's rights, you wouldn't have stopped him from obtaining a gun. It's still easy enough for him to make a straw purchase, or even simply obtain a gun via the black market.

Yes, it is easy enough to make a straw purchase. But as any American under 21 will tell you, even though it's easy to get someone to buy alcohol for you, it's a lot easier if you can just go into the store and do it yourself. Does making the drinking age 21 make it harder for under-21's to get alcohol? Yes. Does it make it impossible, or even really difficult? No. I doubt many pot dealers moonlight as illegal firearms traders. Buying anything illegally is as easy as finding someone to sell it to you, and that's not always easy.

I think intelligent regulation

oximoron when it comes to firearms. Might as well say fairies and dragons. History of gun control in this country has shown us that regulation of firearms in the USA only leads to the stripping of fundamental rights and contributes to danger in society.

We need regulation of firearms the same as we need regulation of automobiles and carbon emissions: it is in the public's best interest. Personally I think this means a single, federal system of regulations. I see this as being some sort of pre-permit screening or testing, mandatory reporting of mental health and criminal issues for individuals, registration of firearms (even if the records are held at the local law enforcement office and not in a federal database), and a set of rules for the import, manufacture, sale, and modification of firearms. I know it sounds scary to give the federal government more control, but it is in our best interest to have the same limits on gun ownership as we have on driving a car. I also think that, given that 2A is a piece of constitutional law, any gun regulation can happen only at the federal level.

I wonder if this sick individual would have been able to do the same thing in Massachusetts. When I went for my interview, it was quick, painless, and the LEO in charge barely said a word to me (mostly I spoke to the secretary). That might be because I have no criminal record and no record of mental health issues. It might have been because I shaved, combed my hair and put on a shirt and tie before the interview. Could Loughner have done that? I don't know. I'm not trying to say Massachusetts' gun laws are anything less than byzantine. I'm just saying maybe there is something to having a process for screening people before handing them an LTC.

Hey and maybe there's something to that Patriot Act too! Maybe we should do racial profiling at airports. Maybe we should let the police lock people up for looking funny.

Of course you'll prevent bad things if you are willing to trample on enough rights. But you're left with a police state full of subjects, not citizens.

I should have known better than to give even conditional approval to MA gun laws. I personally think that the screening I went through to obtain my CCW was insufficient. I would have preferred a brief face-to-face interview with an LEO, perhaps a mental health evaluation, and even a brief safety test. I'm not saying we should try to fail people to prevent them from getting CCWs, I'm saying we should do a better job to ensure that CCW holders are capable of handling the responsibility a CCW represents. I think the best regulations would be national, so people can't just go across the border to a state with more lax laws. I think there is a balance to be struck between individual liberty and the public interest.

As for racial profiling, I'm going to cop out and say that the Israelis have it right. Don't rely on racial profiling, rely on well-trained personnel performing behavioral profiling.

The patriot act has nothing to do with regulating firearms, it is a piece of anti-terrorism legislation. A piss-poor one at that. Saying that any screening prior to giving someone a gun permit is the same as the patriot act is not a valid comparison in my opinion. I oppose the patriot act. Does that mean I oppose all anti-terrorism legislation? I would support anti-terrorism legislation if it was actually effective and did not conflict with our basic values as a country. I'm not seeing how intelligent gun regulation at a federal level, which maintains the right of citizens to keep and bear arms and involves a screening process, would automatically go against our basic values.

Furthermore, let me state that I am not opposed to private ownership of any type of weapon. I do think that grenade launchers, tanks, fighter aircraft and automatic weapons (not to mention thermonuclear warheads) should be subject to much more regulation than semiautomatic rifles, pistols and shotguns of any description and any capacity.

Love&A.45 wrote:

eelj wrote:

masonalannz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/eSmKPbNsyio

This is the crap that has people scared and thinking an AR15 is what you need for home defense, whatever that is. What couple of douchebags. Fred should just grow a pair.

Mason I think you are getting much to emotional over Tuscon, the simple fact is that this clown would have killed more people if he ran through the crowd swinging a machete, the glock in 9mm is a stupid gun especially with an extended mag. Its all about marketing and selling to people and personally I would rather that slobs buy slob guns rather than buy a good gun and learn how to use them effectively. I try not to get this emotional on the subject but I'm drunk and people have as much right to buy ARs in this country as plastic stocked muzzle loaders that use 209 primers and phony black powder during a "primitive " hunting season.

Personally, I own an AR, it's fun to shoot, the ammo is relatively inexpensive, it's a well made accurate rifle … it's my range toy. As for the video, it was pretty standard competition shooting instruction and I didn't see anything that screamed right wing partisan point of view.

Please don't feed the extremists (on either side) or we'll never be able to release them back into the wild.

Every time something like this happens in the US there is always a period of "discussion". Its no different now, I remember in the early seventies when the debate was over handguns and especially "inexpensive easily concealable saturday night specials". The debate was the same and sportsmen who were worried about back splash went along with the prohibitionists, they have no sporting value was the cry. I find semi auto rifles and pistols less than interesting but I still fight with emails and financial donations to preserve a persons right to own them. The only way you can save the sport and the right to own and shoot guns is to protect the weakest link. I want to be able to continue to own and enjoy my revolvers and bolt action rifles and eventually hand them down to my children so I will continue to support those that own Glocks Hipoints Keltecs ARs and AKs with there hi cap mags. If I pissed anybody off with my rant of the other night I'm sorry.

THE GUY SHOOTING LOOKS HE IS TAKING A SHIT IN A CO RNFIELD