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Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:23 am
by KVoimakas
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns ... ddow_show/

She goes on about guns and gun control. It annoyed me enough that I wrote up an email, sent it off to her, and posted it as an open letter on DailyKos.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/14 ... el-Maddow-

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:48 am
by GlockLobster
MSNBC....
Image

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:48 pm
by Van
KVoimakas wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns ... ddow_show/

She goes on about guns and gun control. It annoyed me enough that I wrote up an email, sent it off to her, and posted it as an open letter on DailyKos.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/14 ... el-Maddow-
Awesome letter! Glad to have you on our side, KV!!

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:18 pm
by DukeNukemIncarnate
I really like Rachel Maddow and in the past I even posted some of her videos here on forum. Of course, I don't agree with her on every issue and I know that she's very much anti-gun. Didn't got around to see this video, but I read your letter KVoimakas and I share your sentiment and agree with it completely.

It's really great to have you here man!

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:16 am
by Leucoandro
I am pretty supprised that Maddow references a poll by Frank Luntz, after she refered to him as a word doctor. I am pretty sure she does not like him.

I also like how she talks about a mythical completely plastic glock that can go through medal detectors, saying something about glock has had the technology for at least 20 years or some such nonsense. Glock is currently offering $10,000 to any person that can produce a 100% plastic glock w/o any metal parts. They have also said that they do not have the ability to make a 100% plastic gun, and never have.


Charlie

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:04 pm
by CarolinaHiker
First, I commend you on taking the effort to post some corrections on Rachel Maddow's "information" presented and the problems with it. Unfortunately, when it comes to the gun topic, I'm doubtful Maddow is interested in truth or facts.

Just a personal comment and some info :


On Point Number 9 :

" 9. You are correct when you say that more guns don't equal less crime. But more guns equals more crime is also false. Firearm laws have liberalized in the last 25 years. We now have 40 shall issue concealed carry states (or better, counting Vermont) instead of 8. Yet over that same time period, violent crime has dropped. Only 8% of violent crime incidents involved a firearm in 2009. Here is a link to a US government website showing that statistic; http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/... "


More guns equals more crime is indeed a false assumption...there has never been one academic study prove that. But I would not be so quick to state that more guns does NOT reduce crime. Forget Maddow on this topic...instead, study the works of both John Lott and Gary Kleck. There are no equals to these gentemen who have studied this topic extensively and had their work reviewed and accepted by several independent academic sources :

John Lott :
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Cr ... 634&sr=1-1

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/surveyofrtcliterature.pdf


Gary Kleck (based on original work, "Point Blank", but easier reading):
http://www.amazon.com/Great-American-Gu ... 693&sr=1-5

Gary Kleck's Extensive Research Documentd (this is very indepth, but dry reading, of all factual research)

http://www.amazon.com/Point-Blank-Guns- ... 693&sr=1-4


Regards,

CarolinaHiker

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:28 am
by mark
While Kleck gave Lott's book, overall, positive reviews, in reference to the particular study about guns reducing crimes he said that "more likely the declines in crime coinciding with relaxation of carry laws were largely attributable to other factors not controlled for in the Lott Mustard analysis." (Targeting Guns).

Lott's work, as well as all of the other current research on firearms and crime, was reviewed by the National Academy of Sciences - the most prestigious scientific board in the country - found that "there is no credible evidence that 'right-to-carry' laws, which allow qualified adults to carry concealed handguns, either decrease or increase violent crime." There was conflicting data when it came to murder rates and RTC laws:
The National Academy of Sciences panel that reported on several gun control issues in 2004 looked at Right-To-Carry laws in Chapter 6 and endorsed neither the Lott & Mustard (1997) level and trend models as definite proof nor the Ayres & Donohue (2003) hybrid model as definite refutation of Lott's thesis: the majority of panel concluded that econometrics could not decide the issue, suggesting instead alternate research, such as a survey of felons to determine if RTC changed their behavior. The criminologist on the NAS panel, James Q. Wilson, wrote a dissent from the econometricians' conclusion. Wilson noted in the report that all their estimates on murder rates supported Lott's conclusion on the effect of RTC on murder. The Committee responded that "[w]hile it is true that most of the reported estimates [of the policy on murder rates] are negative, several are positive and many are statistically insignificant."[56] They further noted that the full committee, including Wilson, agreed that there was not convincing evidence that RTC policies had an impact on other kinds of violent crime.

The funny thing about Lott is he seems to be a sneak, which hurts his credibility immediately - at least with me.
Of course you know about his "missing survey" - a survey whose data he cites extensively, yet he says all the data was destroyed in a hard drive crash, all the original papers from the survey went missing, and he can't remember which grad students worked on it (hint: check their thesis or dissertation). But that isn't 'sneaky', that is just 'fishy'. The sneaky part is this:
As part of the dispute surrounding the missing survey, Lott created and used "Mary Rosh" as a fake persona to defend his own works on Usenet and elsewhere. After investigative work by blogger Julian Sanchez, Lott admitted to use of the Rosh persona. Sanchez also pointed out that Lott, posing as Rosh, not only praised his own academic writing, but also called himself "the best professor I ever had".

Some commentators accused Lott of transgressing normal practice, noting that he praised himself while posing as one of his former students, and that "Rosh" was used to post a favorable review of More Guns, Less Crime on Amazon.com. Lott has claimed that the "Rosh" review was written by his son and wife.

"I probably shouldn't have done it—I know I shouldn't have done it—but it's hard to think of any big advantage I got except to be able to comment fictitiously," Lott told the Washington Post in 2003.
There are others who think he is even more deceitful than that and feel that he frequently comments and rates books as alternate identities, including criticizing Kleck's books. see for example: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2003/12/lottonkleck.php


Lott, of course, is an economics professor. Kleck is a criminology professor.

I don't find Kleck personally distasteful, and would be open to reading more things that he has written, I find Lott to be too sneaky to trust.

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:42 am
by highdesert
Good synopsis Mark!
Of course you know about his "missing survey" - a survey whose data he cites extensively, yet he says all the data was destroyed in a hard drive crash, all the original papers from the survey went missing, and he can't remember which grad students worked on it (hint: check their thesis or dissertation). But that isn't 'sneaky', that is just 'fishy'.
He'll always have that hanging over his head, in research integrity is everything. I wonder who paid for his "research"?

I've always been suspicious of PhDs who publish research on topics outside of their academic field, a PhD doesn't mean they are an expert in every area.

Ayres & Donohue study, "Shooting Down the 'More Guns, Less Crime' Hypothesis"
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayres/Ayre ... rticle.pdf

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:19 am
by Leucoandro
I have found that this is a pretty good source of information.

http://gunfacts.info/


Charlie

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:58 am
by highdesert
Leucoandro wrote:I have found that this is a pretty good source of information.

http://gunfacts.info/


Charlie
The first place I go in checking out a website is the "About" link, most state their bias up front like Guy Smith on this site.
"No civil right has come under such unrelenting attacks as the 2nd Amendment. Everyone who takes liberty seriously — which apparently does not include the ACLU — must actively defend the 2nd Amendment."
The ACLU gets consistently bashed by the right, but they run to the ACLU to protect their civil rights including the extremist American Nazi Party. No offense, I'm just skeptical of sites stating they have the facts or the truth.

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:14 am
by JJR1971
mvelimir wrote:I really like Rachel Maddow and in the past I even posted some of her videos here on forum. Of course, I don't agree with her on every issue and I know that she's very much anti-gun. Didn't got around to see this video, but I read your letter KVoimakas and I share your sentiment and agree with it completely.

It's really great to have you here man!

I also generally like Rachel Maddow very much, but I only made it through the first 2 minutes or so of that program and switched it off in disgust.

Thanks to those posting info on Lott. Disappointing--he needs to be intellectually honest or else he is hurting more than helping.

I trust the two who wrote this book:
Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control [Hardcover]
Gary Kleck (Author)
Don B. Kates (Author)

Both are liberals...Kleck believed in gun control but crunched the numbers and changed his views because the evidence didn't support them.

Lott, on the other hand, is a libertarian-ish economist with an ideological axe to grind.

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:54 am
by Van
Rachel must have gotten KV's memo. Notice she calls them magazines the last minute of the video.

http://vodpod.com/watch/5351478-rachel- ... achine-gun

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:59 am
by KVoimakas
Van wrote:Rachel must have gotten KV's memo. Notice she calls them magazines the last minute of the video.

http://vodpod.com/watch/5351478-rachel- ... achine-gun
Ha! I've received no reply...

I also pointed out that machine guns aren't banned. The same thing she points out in the video.

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:28 pm
by Van
KVoimakas wrote:
Van wrote:Rachel must have gotten KV's memo. Notice she calls them magazines the last minute of the video.

http://vodpod.com/watch/5351478-rachel- ... achine-gun
Ha! I've received no reply...

I also pointed out that machine guns aren't banned. The same thing she points out in the video.
Maybe you should apply for some type of research job for her show. :thumbup:

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:40 pm
by KVoimakas
Van wrote:
KVoimakas wrote:
Van wrote:Rachel must have gotten KV's memo. Notice she calls them magazines the last minute of the video.

http://vodpod.com/watch/5351478-rachel- ... achine-gun
Ha! I've received no reply...

I also pointed out that machine guns aren't banned. The same thing she points out in the video.
Maybe you should apply for some type of research job for her show. :thumbup:
Hell, I'd do it all for free if it was firearm related.

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:02 pm
by CarolinaHiker
KVoimakas wrote:
Van wrote:Rachel must have gotten KV's memo. Notice she calls them magazines the last minute of the video.

http://vodpod.com/watch/5351478-rachel- ... achine-gun
Ha! I've received no reply...

I also pointed out that machine guns aren't banned. The same thing she points out in the video.
Yes, you did...I intended to respond to you on that and suggest that next time, rather than just say they weren't banned, inform that they are very highly regulated as well. You have to be careful with many in the media, least they have just enough information and run with that in drawing blanket conclusions. But for the most part, she informed of the enhanced regulations in her show.

BUT...in typical Maddow fashion, she either ignorantly, or purposefully leaves out crucial information on the pricing and regulation.

First, ONLY machine guns manufactured BEFORE 1986 may be possessed. ANY automatic machine guns manufactured after that date ARE completely banned for civilian possession. This is crucial information of which no mention is made. What this means is that the supply of those is more rare and thus they are VERY expensive. If you listen to Maddow, she incorrectly would have you believe that there is only a $200 price deterrent.


The last gun show I attended had one of these firearams on display...I believe they are known as Class III weapons, and dealers must be Class III licensed in order to deal and distribute them. This firearm was priced at $15,000 dollars...believe me, it stil sat there at the end of the show. That's a lot of the deterrent...these fireams cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, plus the $200 tax, plus the very extensive background check process. There has never been a crime or mass shooting reported for any of these types of firearms.

But here in the wake of this tragedy in Tuscon, we have the Left trying to stir up drama on this topic and promote a BS solution to a non-existent problem...or use it as justification for more gun control / ban laws.



Regards,


CarolinaHiker

Re: Rachel Maddow Show

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:44 pm
by DukeNukemIncarnate
Something that Chris Rock suggests - make bullets $5,000 a pop and there will be no more innocent bystanders. A guy determined on shooting someone will pay a good attention where his bullets are going ! :lol: