The Liberal Gun Club Forum

We all know that when something this horrible happens everyone wants a simple scapegoat to pin all of our worst feelings on.Tea-Baggers Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and the hate-filled rhetoric he spouts may have influenced this sick kid in Arizona but thousands of other people hear that same vitriol every day and see it for what it is, garbage. I would personally love to hang this around Palins skinny neck but I would be sinking to her level and by God I am better than her.
Sick people do sick things and sometimes innocent people get hurt. We can blame Palin, others will blame the gun, some will blame the books he read or the music he listened to but we all know the truth , he was a sick, bastard and no one should be blamed for his actions but him.

I know a lot of people who were sick and committed most horrible atrocities in Bosnia, Croatia or Kosovo. To say that they are the only one who should be judged for their acts and leave out politicians and generals who supported, orchestrated or even ordered it seams to be in disagreement with law or logic.

You say that thousands of people see all that vitriol as garbage, but I guarantee you that there are other thousands who buy into that vitriol as gospel. I don't like to be called a "disease that needs to be removed from the body"!

mvelimir wrote:I know a lot of people who were sick and committed most horrible atrocities in Bosnia, Croatia or Kosovo. To say that they are the only one who should be judged for their acts and leave out politicians and generals who supported, orchestrated or even ordered it seams to be in disagreement with law or logic.

Well said.

gearloose wrote:We all know that when something this horrible happens everyone wants a simple scapegoat to pin all of our worst feelings on.Tea-Baggers Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and the hate-filled rhetoric he spouts may have influenced this sick kid in Arizona but thousands of other people hear that same vitriol every day and see it for what it is, garbage. I would personally love to hang this around Palins skinny neck but I would be sinking to her level and by God I am better than her.
Sick people do sick things and sometimes innocent people get hurt. We can blame Palin, others will blame the gun, some will blame the books he read or the music he listened to but we all know the truth , he was a sick, bastard and no one should be blamed for his actions but him.

To take your point to the extreme conclusion, we would not be able to hold the radio announcers of Radio Rwanda and Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines accountable for their role in the Rwandan Genocide. We would not have been able to hold Joseph Goebbels responsible for his role in the Holocaust. While I agree that there is a fine line between political rhetoric and incitement of violence, we need to be willing to hold those guilty of incitement responsible. I believe that Sarah Palin and Glen Beck's rhetoric is in fact inciting violence, and I think if we don't hold them accountable then we are allowing a perverted sense of political correctness trump the rights of those killed and injured in this attack to have justice.

If it comes out in any investigation that he was swayed by the words or actions of Palin and Beck then they should be held accountable. However the things he posted online show him to be his own brand of crazy, not a follower.

gearloose wrote:We all know that when something this horrible happens everyone wants a simple scapegoat to pin all of our worst feelings on.Tea-Baggers Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and the hate-filled rhetoric he spouts may have influenced this sick kid in Arizona but thousands of other people hear that same vitriol every day and see it for what it is, garbage. I would personally love to hang this around Palins skinny neck but I would be sinking to her level and by God I am better than her.
Sick people do sick things and sometimes innocent people get hurt. We can blame Palin, others will blame the gun, some will blame the books he read or the music he listened to but we all know the truth , he was a sick, bastard and no one should be blamed for his actions but him.

I agree with you, gearloose, on your subject heading. I don't see how all this naming and blaming does anyone any good, except perhaps making us feel like,"Ah-HA! I knew it! I knew this was gonna happen!!" I'm sure lots of us are using this opportunity to vent some of our anger. Perhaps a more civil dialogue even on our own forum would ultimately be more beneficial. Like, how can we as individuals change the tone of our national discourse? Everyone can do something, even if it's only small and symbolic. My car sports a "Turn off Fox. Bad news for America" sticker. When I enter an establishment that is airing FOX News, I ask the manager if the channel could be changed. I always explain why I'm requesting this. I engage some of the many Republicans with whom I work in civil discussions to see where we may have common ground. None of them are monsters or assholes. They're simply folks w/ a very different way of looking at things than I'm used to. I'd almost be embarrassed for some of my Republican coworkers and friends to view some of the posts on our site. At times we don't sound a whole hell of a lot different than those we condemn!

stickman wrote:To take your point to the extreme conclusion, we would not be able to hold the radio announcers of Radio Rwanda and Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines accountable for their role in the Rwandan Genocide. We would not have been able to hold Joseph Goebbels responsible for his role in the Holocaust.

Yep.

Freedom doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is also no such thing as freedom in the abstract. A person is free to do certain things or he is not. Speech has consequences, and it occurs in specific social and political contexts.

The radio stations in Rwanda should have been immediately shut down and their broadcasters shot. Thousands of lives would have been saved.

Van wrote: The radio stations in Rwanda should have been immediately shut downand their broadcasters shot.

I think this change makes your statement better. Imprisoned, tried, executed even ..... but maybe we should avoid advocating murder as a recourse for the time being.

mark wrote:

Van wrote: The radio stations in Rwanda should have been immediately shut downand their broadcasters shot.

I think this change makes your statement better. Imprisoned, tried, executed even ..... but maybe we should avoid advocating murder as a recourse for the time being.

OK..executed.

mark wrote:

Van wrote: The radio stations in Rwanda should have been immediately shut downand their broadcasters shot.

I think this change makes your statement better. Imprisoned, tried, executed even ..... but maybe we should avoid advocating murder as a recourse for the time being.

Agreed, extra-judicial killings have no place in civilized society. Although I think those broadcasters deserved to die, better to to make them answer before a judge and jury, then be taken out back for a hole in the head.

It's difficult to think of a better example than Rwanda on why civilian ownership of firearms should be a guaranteed universal right.

ZJohnson wrote:It's difficult to think of a better example than Rwanda on why civilian ownership of firearms should be a guaranteed universal right.

+1

http://lawreview.wustl.edu/inprint/75-3/753-4.html

The Daily kos put a target on her during the primary season and declared her dead when she voted against Pelosi, so maybe this prick is a liberal who was inspired by the dailykos or maybe it was Palin or maybe he is just a sicko who wanted his 15 min.

After reviewing his youtube posts, I vote psychotic with paranoid delusions.

well armed liberal wrote:After reviewing his youtube posts, I vote psychotic with paranoid delusions.

...Naw, he was just sleepwalking his way to the new currency: Grammar. He's fine.

gearloose wrote:We all know that when something this horrible happens everyone wants a simple scapegoat to pin all of our worst feelings on.Tea-Baggers Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and the hate-filled rhetoric he spouts may have influenced this sick kid in Arizona but thousands of other people hear that same vitriol every day and see it for what it is, garbage. I would personally love to hang this around Palins skinny neck but I would be sinking to her level and by God I am better than her.
Sick people do sick things and sometimes innocent people get hurt. We can blame Palin, others will blame the gun, some will blame the books he read or the music he listened to but we all know the truth , he was a sick, bastard and no one should be blamed for his actions but him.

Well stated - mostly. The big debates seem to be centered around censorship or gun control. These are relatively easy and cheap debates that garner gobs of cash and tons of support during political fund raisers and elections. The fact is that this terrible act was committed by a very disturbed young man. Seems like many people saw this coming, yet it came anyway. The debate needs to focus on the state of mental health care in the United States, access to it, and involuntary treatment or institutional treatment. At least half the homeless people that roam our streets, and almost half of our prison and community supervision populations, suffer from mental illnesses ranging from mild to severe, yet we do virtually nothing about it even though the cost of treating them is far less than the cost of incarcerating them - or paying for the medical and funeral expenses of their victims.