Ogre wrote:

mvelimir wrote:

Ogre wrote: I'll agree with that, to an extent. I think the right does need to show some restraint - but so too does the left. I've seen and heard shit from our side that could also send an unbalanced individual down a similar path. I think that in this person's case, just about any Conservative or Republican - no matter how responsible, civil, or ethical - would have fed the demons in his head. If they bear any responsibility for influencing him, it is minor. However, my guess is that local Conservative circles knew, or suspected, just how crazy he really was but failed to warn anybody. I'm concerned that other crazy bastards might decide to copy his actions.

The Left needs to show some restraint? What, are you fucking kidding me? Oh, let us admire the hand wringing restraint of the professional fence- sitter! Who, by doing NOTHING, condemns the left, which has done nothing equal to the VERY REAL crimes of the Right.
Throughout America's history, I can count on ONE HAND the number of deaths attributed to the American Left. While the bodycount of the extremist Right runs into the tens of thousands.
Let me know when the next " unbalanced" leftist kills somebody. In the meantime, you can snuggle up to your buddies at GlockTalk, assuring them that " the evil Leftists" are plotting against them, so any violent act against them is kosher.

You guys should really look at his YouTube page!

the comedian wrote:The Left needs to show some restraint? What, are you fucking kidding me? Oh, let us admire the hand wringing restraint of the professional fence- sitter! Who, by doing NOTHING, condemns the left, which has done nothing equal to the VERY REAL crimes of the Right.
Throughout America's history, I can count on ONE HAND the number of deaths attributed to the American Left. While the bodycount of the extremist Right runs into the tens of thousands.
Let me know when the next " unbalanced" leftist kills somebody. In the meantime, you can snuggle up to your buddies at GlockTalk, assuring them that " the evil Leftists" are plotting against them, so any violent act against them is kosher.

+1

SurvivorGuy23 wrote:I wanna see what Automatic Weapon he was using, cause I already see a lot of Anti 2 treehuggers, wanting to ban guns, again.

Excuse me, but what the hell is a anti 2 "treehugger"?? I feel somewhat offended.....

SurvivorGuy23 wrote:You guys should really look at his YouTube page!

A very disturbed young man, not doubt he'll be psychologically/psychiatrically evaluated. We don't know, but he may have had a long history of mental problems and been on medication. We'll hear more in the weeks ahead.

highdesert wrote:

SurvivorGuy23 wrote:You guys should really look at his YouTube page!

A very disturbed young man, not doubt he'll be psychologically/psychiatrically evaluated. We don't know, but he may have had a long history of mental problems and been on medication. We'll hear more in the weeks ahead.

If he was on big Pharma meds that's likely the cause. He should have just used the natural remedy and killed that damn socialist tomorrow.

All attention has been on Giffords, but a distinguished judge was killed Chief Judge of the US District Court for the District of Arizona, John Roll. Roll apparently got many death threats because of immigration rulings.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/201 ... -roll.html

http://www.azd.uscourts.gov/

I am referring to the Extreme Anti-gunners who usually dont allow their children to have squirt guns, just cause they are called guns, I do take the tree hugger part back though, cause I`m kind of one of them, and I still like guns.

highdesert wrote:All attention has been on Giffords, but a distinguished judge was killed Chief Judge of the US District Court for the District of Arizona, John Roll. Roll apparently got many death threats because of immigration rulings.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/201 ... -roll.html

http://www.azd.uscourts.gov/

I'm actually wondering when - if - they'll cover the details of the other four dead. It's almost a subtle affirmation of the social class hierarchy that of the six, only the child and the authority figure have been receiving media attention. Evidently the others don't count.

Seems everyone's nerves are a bit on edge over this. And probably we should be. I was thinking about something. If we were reading this in another country it would read something like: "Powerful judge, 5 others, die in assassination attempt on Mexican politician." (insert whatever country you prefer there) And when I hear that word - assassination - I think of 3rd world countries, or at least unstable countries, that are unsafe and with an ineffective government. But it happened here. Granted, an attempt was made on Ronnie by someone wanting to impress a movie star just 30 years ago - but that guy was randomly wacko. This guy was wacko and his particular brand of wacko was galvanized by the crap he heard being screwed about the government (based on the tidbits of info we have so far). It wasn't just trying to impress Jody, it was apparently about trying to kill someone who he thought was partially responsible for harming the country. The last time things like that happened on a Federal level, that I know of, was '68. That wasn't necessarily a high point in our history.

I don't agree that the left is just as bad as the right in feeding the twisted and motivating them to act on their fear and anger. But I do agree that this guy just plain had some issues. They were issues that made him open to the nutty talk. Despite all that, I think that suggesting someone is snuggling up with their pals at GlockTalk and commiserating about leftie plots, because you feel they are mistaken about this, is a bit over the top. So maybe we can all just grab a beer and remember that this is some f'd up stuff here - an assassination of a US Representative and Federal Judge - and we are all trying to wrap our heads around it despite having relatively little info about this guy other than his youtube page which clearly shows he was nuts. Let's try to be civil while we all figure it out.

mark wrote:Seems everyone's nerves are a bit on edge over this. And probably we should be. I was thinking about something. If we were reading this in another country it would read something like: "Powerful judge, 5 others, die in assassination attempt on Mexican politician." (insert whatever country you prefer there) And when I hear that word - assassination - I think of 3rd world countries, or at least unstable countries, that are unsafe and with an ineffective government. But it happened here. Granted, an attempt was made on Ronnie by someone wanting to impress a movie star just 30 years ago - but that guy was randomly wacko. This guy was wacko and his particular brand of wacko was galvanized by the crap he heard being screwed about the government (based on the tidbits of info we have so far). It wasn't just trying to impress Jody, it was apparently about trying to kill someone who he thought was partially responsible for harming the country. The last time things like that happened on a Federal level, that I know of, was '68. That wasn't necessarily a high point in our history.

I don't agree that the left is just as bad as the right in feeding the twisted and motivating them to act on their fear and anger. But I do agree that this guy just plain had some issues. They were issues that made him open to the nutty talk. Despite all that, I think that suggesting someone is snuggling up with their pals at GlockTalk and commiserating about leftie plots, because you feel they are mistaken about this, is a bit over the top. So maybe we can all just grab a beer and remember that this is some f'd up stuff here - an assassination of a US Representative and Federal Judge - and we are all trying to wrap our heads around it despite having relatively little info about this guy other than his youtube page which clearly shows he was nuts. Let's try to be civil while we all figure it out.

Part of me did get to thinking "What if the Representative was NOT the target... but the Judge?" I told my fiance that, and it was as if a lightbulb went off in her head thinking of all the court cases he could of ruled on, and all the people who lost in his court. We also looked up some of his rulings, and yep: He countered alot of harsh anti-immigration rulings, and even heard challenges by border "minutemen" and their constant overstepping of non-law enforcement bounds. He was good friends to to Giffords, so that link could go either way.

I'm still curious on this assertion that there might of been ANOTHER person with Laughner. Could he of been lead on by another, and when pointed in the right direction, could of he been "ditched" by his buddy once his work was done? Perhaps the shooter was just someone gullible enough to be coerced into doing what the other guy didn't want to do himself.

Good questions to ask

highdesert wrote:

SurvivorGuy23 wrote:You guys should really look at his YouTube page!

A very disturbed young man, not doubt he'll be psychologically/psychiatrically evaluated. We don't know, but he may have had a long history of mental problems and been on medication. We'll hear more in the weeks ahead.

For the sake of normal gun owners and not a few of our confused but otherwise opinionated right-of-center counterparts everywhere I hope to hell his firearm was stolen or otherwise obtained illegally. I don' t know what the chances of that would be in Arizona. I was under the impression that they gave out guns to kids on their graduation from 6th grade.

SurvivorGuy23 wrote:I am referring to the Extreme Anti-gunners who usually dont allow their children to have squirt guns, just cause they are called guns, I do take the tree hugger part back though, cause I`m kind of one of them, and I still like guns.

Thank you. I am one, also.

CNN reported a few times that a Glock 19 with a 30 round mag was recovered.

Expect to see some hi- cap mag / aw ban discussions soon.....

They also report that they are searching for someone else who may be an accomplice.

Durbin on the tube now talking about gun control.
He's also mentioning Palin's target poster.

"We need to realize that the rhetoric, and the firing people up and ... for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, the way she has it depicted, we're in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action..." - Gabrielle Giffords, March 2010

Source: http://www.good.is/post/gabrielle-giffo ... hairs-map/

The best evidence that everyone, even Palin, understands that the website with cross-hairs was provocative, dangerous and explicitly threatening is that Palin took it down immediately following the shooting. If there is any silver lining to this tragedy, it would be that it is the end of Palin's political career, though the overheated extremists on the right have shown a capacity to dismiss anything she does (other than take 6 shots to hit a caribou).

By the way, the recent spree of media-encouraged assassinations of left-leaning political and public figures began at least as far back as 2008, with the assassination of Arkansas Democratic Party Chairman, Bill Gwatney.

the comedian wrote:The Left needs to show some restraint? What, are you fucking kidding me? Oh, let us admire the hand wringing restraint of the professional fence- sitter! Who, by doing NOTHING, condemns the left, which has done nothing equal to the VERY REAL crimes of the Right.
Throughout America's history, I can count on ONE HAND the number of deaths attributed to the American Left. While the bodycount of the extremist Right runs into the tens of thousands.
Let me know when the next " unbalanced" leftist kills somebody. In the meantime, you can snuggle up to your buddies at GlockTalk, assuring them that " the evil Leftists" are plotting against them, so any violent act against them is kosher.

Calling me a professional hand wringer and fence sitter? My buddies at Glock Talk? Go piss up a rope, girly mouth. While you're at it, enjoy a steaming bowl of kiss my ass. I'll stand by my words. There was a lot of right wing rhetoric that fed his demons, but demons he had none-the-less. Sure, the right is the feeding ground of the KKK and Glock Talk, but the left was the feeding grounds of the Weathermen and the SLA. (So, I suspect you missed a finger or two). I think we're the only liberal gun forum, and we're pretty level-headed over here (for the most part) so I don't think you'll ever see that type of shit here. But are there liberal sites just a virulent as the right's? I'd be willing to bet there are. Because we haven't any nut jobs recently doesn't mean we won't again - more than a couple that I knew at Angelo State University (including at least one influential professor) come readily to mind. The left has and does spout some seriously crazy shit, and it's simply a matter of time before some one on the left pulls this same shit.

Then what? We'll justify his/her/their actions in light of the "evil right." Craziness is craziness, and the 1st Amendment is the 1st Amendment. Unless the influence of numb skulls like Palin or "jounalists" like those found on Fox News can be proven to have driven a unified force of whacko militiamen or such to selectively target Democrats, then our finger pointing on this holds as much credibility as the claim that Ozzy and heavy metal influence teen suicides or hip hop causes teenagers to smoke crack or commit violent crime. Are we going to set up a commission to review all the rantings of the right? Seems to me we lampooned them when they tried that shit with heavy metal or hip hop. So, who will be our Joseph McCarthy? Any volunteers? Maybe the Comedian will step up, since he's so eager to condemn.

ZJohnson wrote:

"We need to realize that the rhetoric, and the firing people up and ... for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, the way she has it depicted, we're in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action..." - Gabrielle Giffords, March 2010

Source: http://www.good.is/post/gabrielle-giffo ... hairs-map/

The best evidence that everyone, even Palin, understands that the website with cross-hairs was provocative, dangerous and explicitly threatening is that Palin took it down immediately following the shooting. If there is any silver lining to this tragedy, it would be that it is the end of Palin's political career, though the overheated extremists on the right have shown a capacity to dismiss anything she does (other than take 6 shots to hit a caribou).

By the way, the recent spree of media-encouraged assassinations of left-leaning political and public figures began at least as far back as 2008, with the assassination of Arkansas Democratic Party Chairman, Bill Gwatney.

You know I actually dont think it was she who order the target list down, it was most likely one of her younger advisors who suggested that, as it would be harmful to her campaign, if it was up to her she would have probably left it up.

Ogre wrote:Sure, the right is the feeding ground of the KKK and Glock Talk, but the left was the feeding grounds of the Weathermen and the SLA. (So, I suspect you missed a finger or two).

The point though is, how many extremist left wing groups are there compared to the opposite? Of those, how many are currently active? I think you might be surprised at the ratio, and the ratio does matter.

Ogre wrote: But are there liberal sites just a virulent as the right's? I'd be willing to bet there are.

Again, the point is the number. If you can't even point to an existing leftist site that is as putrid as the rightwingnut sites, that does tell you that there really aren't that many, if at all, right? Whereas I can rattle off in my sleep any number of wingnut fora that advocate just the sort of thing like this AZ mass murder event.

Ogre wrote:Because we haven't any nut jobs recently doesn't mean we won't again - more than a couple that I knew at Angelo State University (including at least one influential professor) come readily to mind. The left has and does spout some seriously crazy shit, and it's simply a matter of time before some one on the left pulls this same shit.

This is projection of a theoretical. To say that it is equivalent to rightwingnut acts of violence and anti-society incitations is stretching credibility much too far.

Ogre wrote: Unless the influence of numb skulls like Palin or "jounalists" like those found on Fox News can be proven to have driven a unified force of whacko militiamen or such to selectively target Democrats,

The emergence of the new wingnut conservatives such as TP and its offshoots, as well as the rise of violent rhetoric by the repugnicunts, already serve proof to the accepted escalation of violent methodologies by members of these groups. Youtube and the interweb will show you just how much evidence there are of this - check it out, it's easy. Angle in AZ didn't invent the term "2A remedies" by herself. Check out any other gun forum and do a search on "illegal immigrants", and be deluged by the number of posters advocating and volunteering shooting men, women and children who cross the border.

Ogre wrote: then our finger pointing on this holds as much credibility as the claim that Ozzy and heavy metal influence teen suicides or hip hop causes teenagers to smoke crack or commit violent crime.

Do you really think that holding mass rallies and firearms demonstrations exhorting people to rise up against the "socialists" and defend the Constitution because of the "tree of liberty...", and a 24/7 rabid broadcast in pop TV of hate, bigotry and violence is the same ineffectual exercise as niche music influencing some teenagers?

Ogre wrote: Are we going to set up a commission to review all the rantings of the right? Seems to me we lampooned them when they tried that shit with heavy metal or hip hop. So, who will be our Joseph McCarthy? Any volunteers? Maybe the Comedian will step up, since he's so eager to condemn.

So it seems like your idea is to let things be, because 1A covers hate and violence speech.

It doesn't.

Everyone can hedge bets that the shooter is a on the left or right, but no evidence has been put forth. He has made statements and videos arguing for the gold standard, a very right wing thing. Then, in the same paragraph he says he won't trust in God, a very left thing.

It's sad for most people to assume outright who done it. I seen a small amount of right wing forums essentially doing the same thing here...assuming the opposite "party" for the shooter. Right vs left arguments are just a waste of breath at this point.

What if he was neither right or left?

Key point, we don't know yet.

GlockLobster wrote: Then, in the same paragraph he says he won't trust in God,

Neither did Ayn Rand.

The left has certainly been through its times of extremism. But when it did, the extremists were condemned and marginalized--the communists, the anarchists, the Weatherman, and similar ilk. Marginalization was the correct response to those trying to work outside our accepted legal and moral frameworks.

In their roles as winking provocateurs, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and their ilk remind me a lot of Emma Goldman, a leftist who had a habit of fiery rhetoric and insincere disclaimers, such as when an unstable admirer of hers assassinated President McKinley. I would be very pleased to see the violent right marginalized and discredited among Republicans, as it deserves to be, in the same way the violent left was disowned by the majority of Democrats. And by disowned, I don't mean just hand-wringing in the aftermath of violence but rather pro-active denunciations when their members call, not to subtlety, for "direct action" (as Goldman would have put it) against their political opponents. So far, I haven't seen it.

Van wrote:

GlockLobster wrote: Then, in the same paragraph he says he won't trust in God,

Neither did Ayn Rand.

You have personified exactly what I've said.

I just want to say that I haven't heard the phrse "go piss up a rope" in a long time. Itsa good one that needs more play.

but.....Ogre, the incidents you cite (sla, etc) are 40 years old ...... In the thes t 30-40 years it's been all right wing driven. At least as far as I am aware. I do get what you are saying, given what we know, it's difficult to sayforsureexactly what pushed this go over the edge...and until/unless thereis more evidence it's just as bad to jump to the conclusion that is was the influence of beck et al as it was when the conservative posters immediately said 'it must be an illegal'. I get that..and you are right to some degree. But I think it's hard to deny the continual suggestions of violence that come from powerful places on the right (for which I find no modern equivalent on the left), and it's alsohard to deny that some of those talking points are found in his ramblings. Yes, he wasinsane before. Despite their rhetoric of violence it's not the rights fault that he was crazy. But as someone else said, it's not thesane ones that I am worried about going off the deepend because of fearmongering.

GlockLobster wrote:
What if he was neither right or left?

Key point, we don't know yet.

He doesn't have to be right or left in order to be influenced by the notion that violence is an acceptable solution, regardless of which side is spouting it - hear the rhetoric often enough and it becomes justifiable in some people's minds.