The Liberal Gun Club Forum

The divide between elected officials and the population that pays their salary is going to get very wide and suspicions will grow. I think this will only make it more dangerous to be in public life. I'm worried about some copycat incident cropping up possibly against a conservative, I'm not a candidate for a tin foil fedora but sometimes it almost seems scripted.

GlockLobster wrote:
Enough of [your] my silly circular arguments.

Fixed it for you.

And I'm not looking for a fight, rather of clarification - if we all learn something from this, so much the better. But I can see where you think this has been confrontational. Apologies, no offense intended.

masonalannz wrote:G'day and welcome, Carolina Hiker.

Please stick around.

Thank you....hello to all as well.


Regards...

eelj wrote:I'm worried about some copycat incident cropping up....

Yes, generally a concern...and nothing feeds the next sicko's mind like the mass media pounding the event and practically elevating the shooter to near cult status...twisted "celebrity" potential. Sadly, that is going on now. It needs to be reported on, but the media latches on, plasters it everywhere, and drives it into the ground. These are the heart of the issues that need addressing, but the money and power establishment will not go there.

There was a time in this country when the media exercised some level of responsibility and may have held back on reporring some things, in consideration that it could have negative ramifications. Not today...the dirtier and more shocking the better...sell, sell, sell.


Regards,

CarolinaHiker

AdAstra wrote:

Ogre wrote: The First Amendment protects all, and a party cannot be held liable because a few deranged individuals act on their words (no matter how offensive those words may be).

So we can form an Al Quaeda group here in the States, that exhort individuals to blow up crowds, and you would be OK with it being protected by the 1st A? The SC will disagree with you.

Just stating an analogy here.

The analogy is over the top and flawed. As much as I despise them, the mainstream right wing dipshits like Rush and Palin are not Al Quaaeda, and they have not extorted individuals to strap on suicide packs and go blow up crowds. (Like a couple of more cups of hyperbole sauce to go on that roast knee jerk)? They've spewed and published political dribblings that are in very poor taste, but nothing on the level you've just proposed. Peruse political cartoons and other forms of political critique from roughly the Andrew Jackson administration to the present, and you'll find much the same - it tends to run in cycles.

Hold Rush, Palin, and company liable for the likes of this lone shooter (who's actual motives are still unknown)? Silence them for saying things that make us feel uncomfortable - even scared? You never got anything out of Animal Farm, 1981, or Fahrenheit 451 did you. Let the Justice Department do it's investigation, and let them do the prosecuting. I refuse to get caught up in hysteria and finger pointing that ultimately makes us look as bad as them, and I'll hold judgment until I have some facts.

Ogre wrote: The analogy is over the top and flawed. As much as I despise them, the mainstream right wing dipshits like Rush and Palin are not Al Quaaeda, and they have not extorted individuals to strap on suicide packs and go blow up crowds.

Language is such an amazing thing. Where else can you find a fat chance to be equal to a slim chance? What other contortions of communication have the flexibility in word choice and tone to make just about anything mean just about anything else regardless of what a literal transcript may claim?

Seriously, Ogre, you have to make allowances for innuendo and implied meanings and euphemisms and insinuation.

Just because someone doesn't say to strap on a vest and run on down to the local dem/lib congressional office doesn't mean they aren't actually communicating that exact idea using euphemism and innuendo.

And while there may have been people on soapboxes yelling about the president being a manchurian candidate from a foreign land that is attempting to sell this nation into some sort of slavery and put any dissidents into fema camps, I HIGHLY doubt any such crap of that caliber was actually floating around the newspapers of those old times.

Of course, such screeds may have been floating around in the time of the secession, but that came after Jackson, and we all know that those screeds were also far over the top and led to the bloodiest war this nation has yet known.

So yeah, I do lay the spilled blood of our dead and the pain of our injured at the feet of the hate-spewing vitriolic mouths that have shouted about kenyan luo tribesman and so on.

masonalannz wrote:G'day and welcome, Carolina Hiker.
Please stick around.

Nothing like coming into a hot discussion.

highdesert wrote:

masonalannz wrote:G'day and welcome, Carolina Hiker.
Please stick around.

Nothing like coming into a hot discussion.

Ha... no doubt.

Jared Lee Loughner: erratic, disturbed and prone to rightwing rants
Loughner echoes concerns of Tea Party movement in videos that reveal fears about government brainwashing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... wing-rants

Couple of posts from Michael Moore's Twitter

@MMFlint Michael Moore
Too unstable, so the Army rejects him. Too unstable, so Pima Com College suspends him. But if he wants 2 buy a gun in AZ, no prob!

@MMFlint Michael Moore
If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he b sitting right now? Just asking.

amrev360 wrote:Jared Lee Loughner: erratic, disturbed and prone to rightwing rants
Loughner echoes concerns of Tea Party movement in videos that reveal fears about government brainwashing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... wing-rants

Couple of posts from Michael Moore's Twitter

@MMFlint Michael Moore
Too unstable, so the Army rejects him. Too unstable, so Pima Com College suspends him. But if he wants 2 buy a gun in AZ, no prob!

@MMFlint Michael Moore
If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he b sitting right now? Just asking.

I love British newspapers, they have never made any pretense of being apolitical as opposed to American ones. The Guardian is left of center along with the Observer, while The Times, News of the World etc. are right wing. The Guardian is a very fine newspaper and I read it often.

Last paragraph:
"Arizona prides itself on its loose gun laws but there is still shock that a man with such a prolonged history of erratic and disturbing outbursts was able to legally acquire the gun he used in his rampage. The shootings were carried out with a Glock 19 semiautomatic, with a magazine of 30 bullets."

If they researched Arizona law (available on the Internet) they would have found that like California law, an individual has to be adjudicated mentally ill by a court before they are barred from purchasing a gun.

I agree with Moore's second Tweet. Of course if the Muslim was a big Republican backer and very vocal politically it probably wouldn't be an issue.

Regardless of any other thing, this along with the other senseless deaths, make me nauseated. I can't imagine being the parents.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/09/ari ... tml?hpt=C1

The 911 tape. You know its bad when you get the 911 dispatcher to say 'Oh my God"

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/ ... cnn?hpt=C2

Man, this dude was just plan nutz:

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2 ... ooting.cnn

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/01 ... cgahee.cnn

mark wrote:I just want to say that I haven't heard the phrse "go piss up a rope" in a long time. Itsa good one that needs more play.

but.....Ogre, the incidents you cite (sla, etc) are 40 years old ...... In the thes t 30-40 years it's been all right wing driven. At least as far as I am aware. I do get what you are saying, given what we know, it's difficult to sayforsureexactly what pushed this go over the edge...and until/unless thereis more evidence it's just as bad to jump to the conclusion that is was the influence of beck et al as it was when the conservative posters immediately said 'it must be an illegal'. I get that..and you are right to some degree. But I think it's hard to deny the continual suggestions of violence that come from powerful places on the right (for which I find no modern equivalent on the left), and it's alsohard to deny that some of those talking points are found in his ramblings. Yes, he wasinsane before. Despite their rhetoric of violence it's not the rights fault that he was crazy. But as someone else said, it's not thesane ones that I am worried about going off the deepend because of fearmongering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7M3EEHYkJ0

GIVE THAT A LISTEN FOR "Piss Up A Rope" One of my favorite bands of all time from nearby New Hope, PA. WEEN! (Yes this is the SAME band that did "Push the 'lil daisies"

mark wrote:

GlockLobster wrote:

mark wrote:I just want to say that I haven't heard the phrse "go piss up a rope" in a long time. Its a good one that needs more play.

For you! We could use a smile or two today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfmB-8onoMo

HA.... nice

I should have read all the posts I was catching up on first. lol

mark wrote:Regardless of any other thing, this along with the other senseless deaths, make me nauseated. I can't imagine being the parents.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/09/ari ... tml?hpt=C1

As a Phillies fan who lives about 90 minutes from ground zero, it is a real ironic twist. The girl was born on a day I will never forget having been working not far in Parsipanny NJ, and the fact her Grandfather was a manager & current advisor for the Phillies. (And a former Manager of the Mets, and GM of the Cubs.)

The shooter I suspect had no clue who the Judge or girl were. Both having claims to fame as well. A very odd twist of fate.

MetalSlugIV wrote:Bleh some of the comments over at d-kos are just plain stupid. They are even targeting the RKBA group. They are completely ignoring the root of the problem. That is deep seeded hatred of all things progressive in a large part of the right wing.

I doubt that even dKos's own... (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
litho, Roadbed Guy, PinHole, Only Needs a Beat

...resident gun nuts will rethink their stand.

by GreenSooner on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 12:14:29 PM PST

We were thrown a lot of crap over the weekend. Here's just a couple:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/9/ ... t-loonies.

Guns are for Professionals, not loonies.

Yesterday's events reminded me of some of the go-rounds I've had with memebers of the KOS multi-blog, RKBA. I'm thinking they must be having a tough, conflicted day today. But, as usual, I'm probably mistaken.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1 ... 467/10#c10
Click on the above link to access the links in the picture.

What a weekend to stay off the internet...

Simmer down,

Well I am checking the site out, but I sure see a lot of blame this side or that side, jump to conclusions.


ZJohnson,

I agree with the thought that those the run the airwaves need to clean up there act. That is most politicians though. We need to write them and tell them to clean up their act no matter the party. I did notice that Olberman seems to concentrate on the "right", but the "left" has the same problem. Those on the right and left, with a voice, forget that they do it, or somehow think that it is different when they do it. Olberman, Maddow, Schultz, and Radigan are just as inflamitory as Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, and Hannity.

President Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
President Obama: “Get in Their Faces!”
President Obama: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
President Obama: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
President Obama: “We talk to these folks (Wallstreet)… so I know whose ass to kick.“
President Obama: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
President Obama: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
President Obama: “Punish your enemies.”
President Obama: “I’m itching for a fight.”

You also have Alan Grayson (need I say more?)

Dylan Radigan MSNBC:
“Are things in our country so bad that it might actually be time for revolution?” “The answer is obviously ‘yes.’ The only question is, ‘how to do it?’”
Radian believes that it is a time for revolution because of “Wrongful wars,“ ”corrupt economy,“ ”special interest industries,” “the political system itself,“ and ”gerrymandering.”
He also said “To clear our dire problems may require even more drastic solutions,” and “violence or at least the threat thereof” was needed.


DNC Add:



As to John Loughner - It appears that he might have been an extreme liberal anti-semite. Apparently he met her at a town hall in '07 and thought she was “stupid and unintelligent”. Some talk is that he might have been writing Representative Giffords letters. At one time he was apparently part of a liberal group that wanted to change the way the world was run.

I suspect John Loughner attempted to murder Representative Giffords because he felt she was too conservative and dismissive of liberal changes he hoped she would make. Maybe he thought she would be an instrument of his ideas of change for the future?


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley ... hooter.php#
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... liber.html
http://www.bloggernews.net/125845


Charlie

Leucoandro wrote:Simmer down,

Well I am checking the site out, but I sure see a lot of blame this side or that side, jump to conclusions.


ZJohnson,

I agree with the thought that those the run the airwaves need to clean up there act. That is most politicians though. We need to write them and tell them to clean up their act no matter the party. I did notice that Olberman seems to concentrate on the "right", but the "left" has the same problem. Those on the right and left, with a voice, forget that they do it, or somehow think that it is different when they do it. Olberman, Maddow, Schultz, and Radigan are just as inflamitory as Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, and Hannity.

President Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
President Obama: “Get in Their Faces!”
President Obama: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
President Obama: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
President Obama: “We talk to these folks (Wallstreet)… so I know whose ass to kick.“
President Obama: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
President Obama: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
President Obama: “Punish your enemies.”
President Obama: “I’m itching for a fight.”

You also have Alan Grayson (need I say more?)

Dylan Radigan MSNBC:
“Are things in our country so bad that it might actually be time for revolution?” “The answer is obviously ‘yes.’ The only question is, ‘how to do it?’”
Radian believes that it is a time for revolution because of “Wrongful wars,“ ”corrupt economy,“ ”special interest industries,” “the political system itself,“ and ”gerrymandering.”
He also said “To clear our dire problems may require even more drastic solutions,” and “violence or at least the threat thereof” was needed.


DNC Add:

As to John Loughner - It appears that he might have been an extreme liberal anti-semite. Apparently he met her at a town hall in '07 and thought she was “stupid and unintelligent”. Some talk is that he might have been writing Representative Giffords letters. At one time he was apparently part of a liberal group that wanted to change the way the world was run.

I suspect John Loughner attempted to murder Representative Giffords because he felt she was too conservative and dismissive of liberal changes he hoped she would make. Maybe he thought she would be an instrument of his ideas of change for the future?


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley ... hooter.php#
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... liber.html
http://www.bloggernews.net/125845


Charlie

Mein Kampf is a not a liberal book. Neither is any of the shit Ayn Rand wrote. When it comes to anti-government, who wears that tag more often and more proudly?

The conservatives.

KVoimakas wrote:Mein Kampf is a not a liberal book. Neither is any of the shit Ayn Rand wrote. When it comes to anti-government, who wears that tag more often and more proudly?

The conservatives.

Mein Kampf = My Struggle. The Book that Hitler used to elevate his standing in the National Socialist (Nazi) Party. A Book listing all the people that wronged Hitler and detailed how Capitalism stacked the cards against the little man. The Nazi Party that had no problems with homosexuals (storm troopers), until it became politically hazardous. A Party that preached the need to control the greedy capitalists, and provide social services to the working class. The party was a party that labeled itself for the working class, bringing big buisness inline. Not Liberal? Research is your freind.

I can not say that I have seen anything that indicates conservatives are anti-government. They are anti-big government. They are proud of and love the government that they grew up with, that they know, and that they believe should follow the Constitution.


Charlie

Leucoandro wrote:

KVoimakas wrote:Mein Kampf is a not a liberal book. Neither is any of the shit Ayn Rand wrote. When it comes to anti-government, who wears that tag more often and more proudly?

The conservatives.

Mein Kampf = My Struggle. The Book that Hitler used to elevate his standing in the National Socialist (Nazi) Party. A Book listing all the people that wronged Hitler and detailed how Capitalism stacked the cards against the little man. The Nazi Party that had no problems with homosexuals (storm troopers), until it became politically hazardous. A Party that preached the need to control the greedy capitalists, and provide social services to the working class. The party was a party that labeled itself for the working class, bringing big buisness inline. Not Liberal? Research is your freind.

I can not say that I have seen anything that indicates conservatives are anti-government. They are anti-big government. They are proud of and love the government that they grew up with, that they know, and that they believe should follow the Constitution.


Charlie

Bull-fucking-shit. Conservatives are happy with any government program or agenda that suites their needs. How many pro-marriage equality conservatives do you see or hear from? How many want government intruding into a woman's privacy and outlawing abortion?

The Nazis said one thing. They did a radically different thing. 'Research' my ass. And Mussolini made the trains run on time...

EDIT: Also, remember that there was a pre-Hitler Nazi party. Which was radically different than the during- and post-Hitler Nazi party.

One of those who helped subdue the shooter was armed.
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/br ... ink-again/

Geraldo asks Joe what happened. The man replies, “I heard gunshots, I ran outside to help. You know, I was carrying a gun and I would have shot him…I, I almost did.”

“Why didn’t you,” Geraldo asked.

“They’d already had a-hold of him, and there was a lot of people around him, and I wasn’t going to cause any more collateral damage or scare anybody any further than they needed to be scared.” Joe replied. “I felt like I could hold him down and wait for police, and it wasn’t my responsibility to end his life.”

Let’s let that one sink in for a second. He had a gun. He was licensed to carry. He made a split-second evaluation of the situation. He made the right choice. No going all Sly-Rocky-Rambo on the guy. No shooting innocent bystanders. No making the situation worse. Just a responsible citizen, trying to help, and doing the right thing. And here’s the kicker. This guy is all of 24 years old. Just two years older than the whackjob that shot 20 or so people and killed 6.

KVoimakas wrote:One of those who helped subdue the shooter was armed.
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/br ... ink-again/

Geraldo asks Joe what happened. The man replies, “I heard gunshots, I ran outside to help. You know, I was carrying a gun and I would have shot him…I, I almost did.”

“Why didn’t you,” Geraldo asked.

“They’d already had a-hold of him, and there was a lot of people around him, and I wasn’t going to cause any more collateral damage or scare anybody any further than they needed to be scared.” Joe replied. “I felt like I could hold him down and wait for police, and it wasn’t my responsibility to end his life.”

Let’s let that one sink in for a second. He had a gun. He was licensed to carry. He made a split-second evaluation of the situation. He made the right choice. No going all Sly-Rocky-Rambo on the guy. No shooting innocent bystanders. No making the situation worse. Just a responsible citizen, trying to help, and doing the right thing. And here’s the kicker. This guy is all of 24 years old. Just two years older than the whackjob that shot 20 or so people and killed 6.

Very interesting, I would like to see more made of this instead of the current debate over which news service he favored.

Leucoandro wrote:

KVoimakas wrote:Mein Kampf is a not a liberal book. Neither is any of the shit Ayn Rand wrote. When it comes to anti-government, who wears that tag more often and more proudly?

The conservatives.

Mein Kampf = My Struggle. The Book that Hitler used to elevate his standing in the National Socialist (Nazi) Party. A Book listing all the people that wronged Hitler and detailed how Capitalism stacked the cards against the little man. The Nazi Party that had no problems with homosexuals (storm troopers), until it became politically hazardous. A Party that preached the need to control the greedy capitalists, and provide social services to the working class. The party was a party that labeled itself for the working class, bringing big buisness inline. Not Liberal? Research is your freind.

I can not say that I have seen anything that indicates conservatives are anti-government. They are anti-big government. They are proud of and love the government that they grew up with, that they know, and that they believe should follow the Constitution.

Charlie

Charlie,
I agree what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Thanks for the examples of Democrats speaking out of line. And we also all need to hold elected officials of all parties responsible for upholding the constitution.

Beyond that, your note comes very close to declaring "liberals are Nazis," at which point we can all just invoke Godwin's law and move on. But since you didn't quite cross that line, I'm sure you know quite well that Hitler's Nazi came to power not only by scapegoating communists (generally considered leftists) but also by reaching agreements with Germany's leading industrialists that he would support their interests, e.g. no redistribution of wealth. Such a model of sustaining the status quo is the same model used by other fascists who made deals with the religious and economic leadership in most countries where they held power. From the left of course, such arrangements between moneyed interests and the government looks "conservative," though I would say true conservatives don't favor special treatment by any class of people or businesses by government (which is why true conservatives are such a rare breed.) In practice, Hitler's economic policies ended up relying heavily on slave labor, which, while it benefits the "capitalists" more than the working man, is neither conservative nor liberal, it is merely medieval. For instance, were the southern slave owners in America "liberal" or "conservative"? From my perspective, they are so different and so removed from us in outlook that discussing them in such terms is pointless--they supported the status quo. Is that "conservative"? Only by some definitions, and not in the way the term is used by contemporary Americans who consider themselves conservative. Comparing contemporary American liberals to fascists is equally facetious.

But ff you're anxious about fascism, as we all should be, it is more instructive to get beyond labels, including Hitler's misleading "socialist" label, and look at the actual behavior of Nazis that we might find disturbing:

* racism, including fear of existing multiculturalism
* rabid nationalism and demonizing of political opponents
* suspension of the rule of law
* militarism, including a strong military industrial complex and colonialism of internal/external peoples

Where have we seen these tendencies in American politics? The KKK used to be very strong in the old Democratic party. FDR locked up Japanese Americans (as Wilson had locked up German Americans). Kennedy beat Nixon partially by claiming the need to close the "missile gap" in nuclear arms (a gap which didn't exist). LBJ expanded our neo-colonial war (begun to support French colonialism, which we tend to forget.) So there we see these tendencies on the left--racism, militarism, arbitrary rule, and blind nationalism.

More recently though, where in American politics do we see things like fear-mongering about Muslim, shouts of "treason" against people who question the president's decision to go to war or his subsequent management of that war, arbitrary suspension of oversight of police powers, e.g. FISA, calls for increased military spending for projects of dubious value, such as SDI? I'm sure you can dig up examples of these things amongst Democrats, but I think if you're honest you'll admit this behavior has been much more common in the leadership of the GOP. (I'll even give you an example where Rs & Ds colluded equally to support the status quo, the public good be damned: TARP.) I also have to mention the anti-intellectualism that no longer sees science or progress as a virtue but instead views universities, especially science departments, as hotbeds of anti-American agitation is also part of the fear-of-change mix, and perhaps more disturbing since it supports the status quo in the perverted sense considers progress unattainable or even undesirable. But I don't think blind support or fear of losing the status quo is truly "conservative" anymore than I consider "National Socialists" to be liberal. But such no-nothing views are common among many who call themselves conservatives, which is a pity. Fact is, I consider myself a conservative, which is why I rarely support Republicans for political office.

Leucoandro wrote:

KVoimakas wrote:Mein Kampf is a not a liberal book. Neither is any of the shit Ayn Rand wrote. When it comes to anti-government, who wears that tag more often and more proudly?

The conservatives.

Mein Kampf = My Struggle. The Book that Hitler used to elevate his standing in the National Socialist (Nazi) Party. A Book listing all the people that wronged Hitler and detailed how Capitalism stacked the cards against the little man. The Nazi Party that had no problems with homosexuals (storm troopers), until it became politically hazardous. A Party that preached the need to control the greedy capitalists, and provide social services to the working class. The party was a party that labeled itself for the working class, bringing big buisness inline. Not Liberal? Research is your freind.

I can not say that I have seen anything that indicates conservatives are anti-government. They are anti-big government. They are proud of and love the government that they grew up with, that they know, and that they believe should follow the Constitution.


Charlie

When doing your research, you should take in account political/economical/social pulse of that era. The world was tired of exploitative capitalism, World War I, economic crisis of the 20s and 30s. For many, idea of radical social changes was an attractive idea. Hitler exploited the sentiment to get himself to power and once there he did what he did. Something like our contemporary politicians (republicans AND democrats alike) do all the time.
With that being said, any person from now on that I hear that are putting Mein Kampf in a same category with Communist Manifesto or saying that Nazis and Socialist/Communists are the same, I'm going to punch in the face - because they are idiots!