Virginia militia efforts beginning

So many executive orders, so much twitter. What to do? Well, discuss it here for one...

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AndyH
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#26 Post by AndyH » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:36 pm

John, dude - please pass the eye bleach. :sick:
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#27 Post by lurker » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:41 pm

AndyH wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:35 pm
lurker wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:28 pm
show up with an airsoft AR? i'm more of a passive resistance type of guy. i think forming militias is a mistake. how is that genie going to be stuffed back in the bottle?
Has the militia ever been 'un-formed' since before we were a country?
at some point the state militias were subsumed into the national guard. somewhere around ww1 iirc.
:hmmm:

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#28 Post by featureless » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:54 pm

lurker wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:28 pm
show up with an airsoft AR? i'm more of a passive resistance type of guy. i think forming militias is a mistake. how is that genie going to be stuffed back in the bottle?
Me too, luker. But there are things that require more. The Black Panthers being the most recent example.

What if the militia were organized to resist the unlawful roundup of Japanese citizens? That would have been a point in history such an action would have made a lot of sense. Is this similar? I don't know.

This all sort of reminds me of the time the great bastion of liberals California voted to deny marriage to gays. Twice. Fuck all that.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#29 Post by K9s » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:08 pm

featureless wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:54 pm
lurker wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:28 pm
show up with an airsoft AR? i'm more of a passive resistance type of guy. i think forming militias is a mistake. how is that genie going to be stuffed back in the bottle?
Me too, luker. But there are things that require more. The Black Panthers being the most recent example.

What if the militia were organized to resist the unlawful roundup of Japanese citizens? That would have been a point in history such an action would have made a lot of sense. Is this similar? I don't know.

This all sort of reminds me of the time the great bastion of liberals California voted to deny marriage to gays. Twice. Fuck all that.
A militia organized to resist the unlawful roundup of Japanese citizens back in ww2 would have been shot. Armed Black Panthers weren't treated well, either. It is too easy to make armed protesters look like bad people to most Americans. I would hope they will be carrying handguns, not long guns. Too many nut jobs have been making threats and ruined it for most of the VA protesters.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#30 Post by UtahGuy202 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:36 pm

I'm down with the cause. I don't think ARs should be taken away from citizens but I'd be hesitant about going to a protest like this. I can guarantee a bunch white nationalists will be there.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#31 Post by featureless » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:40 pm

K9s wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:08 pm
A militia organized to resist the unlawful roundup of Japanese citizens back in ww2 would have been shot. Armed Black Panthers weren't treated well, either. It is too easy to make armed protesters look like bad people to most Americans. I would hope they will be carrying handguns, not long guns. Too many nut jobs have been making threats and ruined it for most of the VA protesters.
Yes, the militia members would have been shot and the Black Panthers were heavily persecuted. Does that make it wrong?

Gun owners already look like bad people to most Americans, at least those that aren't gun owners.

I agree with you that other groups should stay out of the VA demonstration, especially since it's Lobby Day, a time for Virginians to petition their government.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#32 Post by highdesert » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:42 pm

AndyH wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:17 pm

It might be a good time for the rest of the country to push their 2A Sanctuary status as well. The Dems are already talking about bans in Texas. The nationwide anti-gun effort will be strengthened a great deal if Virginia 'falls' to them.
Yes, TX, AZ, CO, NV...where there could be threats. I've been watching AZ and Mohave County (Kingman) passed it but Yavapai County (Prescott) tabled it. Maybe one of the AZ residents has more info.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#33 Post by Wino » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:55 am

I have about as much use for a militia as I do for labor unions. While I believe the latter must exist I've never been a member, but have seen the carnage they heaped on some companies to the detriment of all involved - management and labor. As for militias, I would unleash hell on them regardless of their political leanings left/right or other. Just another form of bullying and fear mongering IMHO. Any entity based on destruction of normal (not status quo) or rightness (as in decorum and abasement of the presidency) thru violence, I will never support. Militias (my perception) are a bunch of fat old people that never grew up and young mullets emulating their racist leaders that will eventually become the same thing - sad, ridiculous old men/women behaving badly.
What with Texas dumb assed (legal to OC long gun w/o license) carry laws and protests by the OC cadre of idiots with their antics have turned off more people than helped gun rights. They made asses of themselves and an embarrassment to any gun owner. Armed assembly for mass protests is about the dumbest action I can think of short of all out OK Corrals everywhere. If this nation cannot resolve it's problems with out violence, we are truly lost and fucked.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#34 Post by lurker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:44 pm

at any particular place and time, just because you have a right doesn't mean you should.
throughout this discussion, i've advocated for sanctuaries, but not for militias. if the issue comes here to neighboring NC i'll do the same while wearing an LGC shirt and hat. guess i need to order some. at this point i think militias are a provocative act, neither necessary nor appropriate, and will only make things worse.
:hmmm:

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#35 Post by K9s » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:50 pm

highdesert wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:42 pm
AndyH wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:17 pm

It might be a good time for the rest of the country to push their 2A Sanctuary status as well. The Dems are already talking about bans in Texas. The nationwide anti-gun effort will be strengthened a great deal if Virginia 'falls' to them.
Yes, TX, AZ, CO, NV...where there could be threats. I've been watching AZ and Mohave County (Kingman) passed it but Yavapai County (Prescott) tabled it. Maybe one of the AZ residents has more info.
It is hard to do that here, because Georgia is essentially a sanctuary state for guns. There can be no law more restrictive than state law, and state laws are super lax. At least one city (Kennesaw) still requires homeowners to have a gun since 1982.
(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.

(b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.
Just something to think about for others. Why assemble a militia? Pass a law requiring gun ownership.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#36 Post by featureless » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:54 pm

lurker wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:44 pm
at this point i think militias are a provocative act, neither necessary nor appropriate, and will only make things worse.
Can't say I disagree with this, at all, and agree with the sanctuary status. There is just so very much that could go wrong here on all sides.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#37 Post by TrueTexan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm

I go by the argument the militia is now the National Guard by the Militia Act of 1903 which has the unorganized militia of all men between ages 17 and 45 and the organized militia consisting of the states National Guard. If and when the members of the unorganized militia would be called to serve they would be part of the National Guard or regular Army. As in WWI, WWII and later wars when we had a draft. The Militia act of 1903 and later amendments to the act allowed the Federal government to have a draft. They were drafting out of the unorganized militia. As for these volunteer militias they were a thing of the nineteenth century and were last used in the Spanish American War. They were replace under the Militia Act of 1903. Not to be seen or used again.

Now these rightwing redneck yahoos that form a gang and call themselves a militia are just full of crap. The militias of the nineteenth century when called up or volunteered were under state or federal control. truism bunch today aren’t under any lawful control They could be rounded up and held under many of the Riot Acts or other laws.

If the State of Virginia wanted to they could call up their lawful militia, National Guard, to maintain the peace.

If these so called milita groups in Virginia want to protest let them do it but require them to wear their uniforms of the Neo-Nazi or the bedsheets of the KKK as appropriate.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#38 Post by AndyH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:07 pm

lurker wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:41 pm
AndyH wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:35 pm
lurker wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:28 pm
show up with an airsoft AR? i'm more of a passive resistance type of guy. i think forming militias is a mistake. how is that genie going to be stuffed back in the bottle?
Has the militia ever been 'un-formed' since before we were a country?
at some point the state militias were subsumed into the national guard. somewhere around ww1 iirc.
Yes, but that's the 'organized' or 'formal' militia. The informal militia appears to be the group being called. The formal militia has continued to be 'formed' but the informal militia has retreated behind their screens.
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You can’t take the Razorback! She is gone and gone and gone!

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#39 Post by AndyH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm
I go by the argument the militia is now the National Guard by the Militia Act of 1903 which has the unorganized militia of all men between ages 17 and 45 and the organized militia consisting of the states National Guard. If and when the members of the unorganized militia would be called to serve they would be part of the National Guard or regular Army. As in WWI, WWII and later wars when we had a draft. The Militia act of 1903 and later amendments to the act allowed the Federal government to have a draft. They were drafting out of the unorganized militia. As for these volunteer militias they were a thing of the nineteenth century and were last used in the Spanish American War. They were replace under the Militia Act of 1903. Not to be seen or used again.

Now these rightwing redneck yahoos that form a gang and call themselves a militia are just full of crap. The militias of the nineteenth century when called up or volunteered were under state or federal control. truism bunch today aren’t under any lawful control They could be rounded up and held under many of the Riot Acts or other laws.

If the State of Virginia wanted to they could call up their lawful militia, National Guard, to maintain the peace.

If these so called milita groups in Virginia want to protest let them do it but require them to wear their uniforms of the Neo-Nazi or the bedsheets of the KKK as appropriate.
We'll have to agree to disagree, TT. The Federal militia laws on the books distinguish between the formal (State Guard and Naval Militia) and informal (the body of the people between the ages of 17 and less than 45 (extended to under age 64 if one has served in the active military)). Though I think you're right that the informal militia hasn't been called to service outside of a draft, I don't think that means the informal militia no longer exists.

You're absolutely right about the status of right wing rump militia groups - they're not necessarily the same as the 'real' militia. Unfortunately, the anti-gun media and their wealthy supporters don't have any incentive to distinguish between these groups any more than they already conflate various fire control groups. I think definitions are important, and I think that the activation of the informal militia to defend the Constitution is a correct use of that body.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/32/313
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#40 Post by featureless » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:24 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm
Now these rightwing redneck yahoos that form a gang and call themselves a militia are just full of crap. The militias of the nineteenth century when called up or volunteered were under state or federal control. truism bunch today aren’t under any lawful control They could be rounded up and held under many of the Riot Acts or other laws.

If the State of Virginia wanted to they could call up their lawful militia, National Guard, to maintain the peace.

If these so called milita groups in Virginia want to protest let them do it but require them to wear their uniforms of the Neo-Nazi or the bedsheets of the KKK as appropriate.
The efforts in Virginia involve calling up the informal militia under county direction. I don't think this is something that has happened in living memory. That is very different from the yahoo militias which are just as you describe them.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#41 Post by UtahGuy202 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:29 pm

It's interesting that this is happening in Virginia since they have an early history of racist gun control legislation.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#42 Post by TrueTexan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:32 pm

AndyH wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree, TT. The Federal militia laws on the books distinguish between the formal (State Guard and Naval Militia) and informal (the body of the people between the ages of 17 and less than 45 (extended to under age 64 if one has served in the active military)). Though I think you're right that the informal militia hasn't been called to service outside of a draft, I don't think that means the informal militia no longer exists.

You're absolutely right about the status of right wing rump militia groups - not the same as the 'real' militia. Unfortunately, the anti-gun media and their wealthy supporters don't have any incentive to distinguish between these groups any more than they already conflate various fire control groups. I think definitions are important, and I think that the activation of the informal militia to defend the Constitution is a correct use of that body.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/32/313
I think we are saying the same thing. The informal militia still exists because all males upon turning 18 have to sign up for the draft. That makes them part of the informal militia.

The formal militia is an organized group as we know as the National Guard. It is the only organized militia allowed by law since we haven’t begun to have warlords. Now if members of the informal militia form organized groups and call themselves militias they are in fact in violation of Federal Law.

These new-Nazi militias could be rounded up and convicted of being in armed rebellion by calling for the armed overthrow of the federal and state governments.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#43 Post by AndyH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:43 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:32 pm
AndyH wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree, TT. The Federal militia laws on the books distinguish between the formal (State Guard and Naval Militia) and informal (the body of the people between the ages of 17 and less than 45 (extended to under age 64 if one has served in the active military)). Though I think you're right that the informal militia hasn't been called to service outside of a draft, I don't think that means the informal militia no longer exists.

You're absolutely right about the status of right wing rump militia groups - not the same as the 'real' militia. Unfortunately, the anti-gun media and their wealthy supporters don't have any incentive to distinguish between these groups any more than they already conflate various fire control groups. I think definitions are important, and I think that the activation of the informal militia to defend the Constitution is a correct use of that body.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/32/313
I think we are saying the same thing. The informal militia still exists because all males upon turning 18 have to sign up for the draft. That makes them part of the informal militia.

The formal militia is an organized group as we know as the National Guard. It is the only organized militia allowed by law since we haven’t begun to have warlords. Now if members of the informal militia form organized groups and call themselves militias they are in fact in violation of Federal Law.

These new-Nazi militias could be rounded up and convicted of being in armed rebellion by calling for the armed overthrow of the federal and state governments.
Almost, Amigo. My 17 year old son is a member of the informal militia per the CFR even though he isn't required to register with selective service until age 18. Note that there is nothing about Selective Service in the CFRs that define the militia.

I posted the two links that I think fully define the militia in the US. If you or anyone else knows of other Federal regulations that I've missed, please teach me! Thanks.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#44 Post by TrueTexan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm

featureless wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:24 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm
Now these rightwing redneck yahoos that form a gang and call themselves a militia are just full of crap. The militias of the nineteenth century when called up or volunteered were under state or federal control. truism bunch today aren’t under any lawful control They could be rounded up and held under many of the Riot Acts or other laws.

If the State of Virginia wanted to they could call up their lawful militia, National Guard, to maintain the peace.

If these so called milita groups in Virginia want to protest let them do it but require them to wear their uniforms of the Neo-Nazi or the bedsheets of the KKK as appropriate.
The efforts in Virginia involve calling up the informal militia under county direction. I don't think this is something that has happened in living memory. That is very different from the yahoo militias which are just as you describe them.
I wonder how the counties calling up the informal militia is going to work? By them calling the informal militia up they are then organized and become a formal militia and in conflict with the National Guard.

We have seen in my lifetime similar situations with the desegregation of schools in the southern states. The local and state law enforcement would be supporting the segregation and the National Guard was called in to enforce and support the segregation. In Little Rock it was bad because the Governor refused to support the desegregation and activated the guard to support desegregation. Eisenhower ordered the 101 Airborne into Little Rock to occupy and support the desegregation act. This action put the state militia in conflict with the Federal government.
Last edited by TrueTexan on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#45 Post by lurker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:58 pm

:love:
Last edited by lurker on Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:hmmm:

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#46 Post by TrueTexan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:14 pm

AndyH wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:43 pm
Almost, Amigo. My 17 year old son is a member of the informal militia per the CFR even though he isn't required to register with selective service until age 18. Note that there is nothing about Selective Service in the CFRs that define the militia.

I posted the two links that I think fully define the militia in the US. If you or anyone else knows of other Federal regulations that I've missed, please teach me! Thanks.
The Selective Service Act just give the Federal Government easy access to the names etc of all the informal militia members. Also 17 is the earliest age a person can enlist into the Armed Forces including the National Guard. It does require parental consent at that age.

Funny story. My dad unlisted in the Army in 1940 before the draft. He never signed up for the draft. In 1943 he is in North Africa with the 461st Bomb Group getting ready to go to Italy after the Italian invasion. He gets a letter from my grandmother saying the FBI was after him because he had not signed up for the draft and they were going to arrest him. Hew wrote her back. Mom tell them to come and get me in North Africa. I will be happy to go back. He didn’t hear anymore about it until 19534. Dad had just been promoted to Master Sargent making him the youngest permanent grade Master in the Air Force. When he re-enlisted after WWII into the army Air Force the army had an indefinite enlistment period. So Dad never had to re-enlist every few years. Well the Air Force said that a no no and he had to be discharged out of the service and re-enlist the next day. He did all said and done. He gets a letter later from his hometown draft board that he has not signed up for the draft. We went to see my grandparents and he took his dress blues. He wore them to the draft board office with all his five rows of ribbon wings and Master Sargent stripes. Nothing more was said.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#47 Post by TrueTexan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:15 pm

lurker wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:58 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm
the Governor refused to support the desegregation and activated the guard to support desegregation.
correct me if i'm wrong, i think you want to edit this sentence.
Done thanks
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
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Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#48 Post by lurker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:26 pm

UtahGuy202 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:29 pm
It's interesting that this is happening in Virginia since they have an early history of racist gun control legislation.
yes, there is that. very much of gun control has been inspired by racist attitudes. consider ronald reagan in california. it wouldn't do to have poor people or POCs armed and able to defend themselves. i don't know how much racism plays into modern gun control efforts, i think there are larger isms at work now, i think it's a more generalized effort to neuter ALL of the people, not just specific groups.
:hmmm:

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#49 Post by featureless » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:31 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm
I wonder how the counties calling up the informal militia is going to work? By them calling the informal militia up they are then organized and become a formal militia and in conflict with the National Guard.
I'll let better informed and greater minds than mine chew on that.
TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm
We have seen in my lifetime similar situations with the desegregation of schools in the southern states.
I wasn't around then, but that must have been truly something to witness. I sometimes wonder if the 2A is worth the same struggle. Rights are rights, but guns are not people. But then, it's hard to keep rights without guns, it seems.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#50 Post by lurker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:55 pm

featureless wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:31 pm
I sometimes wonder if the 2A is worth the same struggle. Rights are rights, but guns are not people. But then, it's hard to keep rights without guns, it seems.
not intending to bore you, i know i've said this here before. this is, in my opinion, the one, only, single thing our friends on the right get right. the second amendment is not about hunting or sport or even self-defense*, it's the last line of defense of all of the other rights spelled out in the constitution. unfortunately our friends on the right are willing to sacrifice all of those other rights in defense of the right to keep and bear, which in my opinion is backwards, because once you give up freedom from religion and freedom of speech and all the rest, the 2nd is irrelevant. unfortunately the "left" is chipping away from the other end, which leads me to conclude that there are two equal and opposite authoritarian forces working to disable our constitutional protections, starting at different ends but working toward the same goal, eliminating all of them, and those of us poor gullible souls looking for peaceful resolution via compromise are simply falling into the trap. the proper course IMO is to unrelentingly advocate for all of the rights spelled out in the constitution, especially those in the BOR without exception, which is why i am a member of that very subversive organization, the Liberal Gun Club. i hope i've come to the right place.

* except to repel overweening government.
:hmmm:

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