The Liberal Gun Club Forum

If guns are able to move south of the border, who says that the hand grenades obtained by the cartels cannot move north into the United States? I used to live in Texas and it was not uncommon for US criminals to use Mexican handguns, but will the US criminals be increasingly militarized? I don't see why not.

"To suggest that U.S. gun laws are somehow to blame for Mexican drug cartel violence is a sad fantasy," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA Institute for Legislative Action.

More lies from the National Republican Affiliate - NRA. The WaPo study just backs up another by the University of San Diego that also pointed the finger at Carter's Country stores. Ironically El Paso, Texas touts itself as one of the safest cities in the US, just across the border from the murder capital of Mexico, Ciudad Juarez.

The Wapo article, and Eric Holder & Co., fail to mention that the grenades, armored personnel carriers, full-auto machine guns and the like are not available at U.S. gun shows but that such are prevalent in Mexico. It's silly to say none of the weapons in Mexico come from gun shows, sure, some do, but it's a real stretch to blame U.S. gun shows on the breakdown of law order there, especially considering Mexico's completely porous SOUTHERN border.

Google "FARC" and "submarine" if you want to truly be amazed at how much the drug and weapon smugglers from South America have upped their game.

ZJohnson wrote:The Wapo article, and Eric Holder & Co., fail to mention that the grenades, armored personnel carriers, full-auto machine guns and the like are not available at U.S. gun shows but that such are prevalent in Mexico. It's silly to say none of the weapons in Mexico come from gun shows, sure, some do, but it's a real stretch to blame U.S. gun shows on the breakdown of law order there, especially considering Mexico's completely porous SOUTHERN border.

Google "FARC" and "submarine" if you want to truly be amazed at how much the drug and weapon smugglers from South America have upped their game.

I certainly don't think that gun shows are the main source of firearms in Mexico. But I do think that most of the guns found near the border are likely to be of US origin. In fact, I would bet - though this is just a guess as I have never researched it - that most firearms in the world are either manufactured in the US or for US consumption. There are, of course, exceptions - H&K I think is made in Germany, Taurus used to be made in Brazil, but they have a factory in the US now, and all the companies moving their production over to China.

Still, it seems that at least a good chunk of the firearms the Mexican drug cartels are using originated in the US. Now the question is - is there anything we can do to prevent them from getting them? It seems we all agree that our firearms contribute to the problem, and I think most of us would agree that a stable Mexico is good for the US, how can we help Mexico minimize the impact of our firearms finding their way to the drug cartels?

As far as things like grenades,etc go, that is obviously an important, but different question since, as you point out, that is coming from different sources.

mark wrote:

ZJohnson wrote:The Wapo article, and Eric Holder & Co., fail to mention that the grenades, armored personnel carriers, full-auto machine guns and the like are not available at U.S. gun shows but that such are prevalent in Mexico. It's silly to say none of the weapons in Mexico come from gun shows, sure, some do, but it's a real stretch to blame U.S. gun shows on the breakdown of law order there, especially considering Mexico's completely porous SOUTHERN border.

Google "FARC" and "submarine" if you want to truly be amazed at how much the drug and weapon smugglers from South America have upped their game.

I certainly don't think that gun shows are the main source of firearms in Mexico. But I do think that most of the guns found near the border are likely to be of US origin. In fact, I would bet - though this is just a guess as I have never researched it - that most firearms in the world are either manufactured in the US or for US consumption. There are, of course, exceptions - H&K I think is made in Germany, Taurus used to be made in Brazil, but they have a factory in the US now, and all the companies moving their production over to China.

Still, it seems that at least a good chunk of the firearms the Mexican drug cartels are using originated in the US. Now the question is - is there anything we can do to prevent them from getting them? It seems we all agree that our firearms contribute to the problem, and I think most of us would agree that a stable Mexico is good for the US, how can we help Mexico minimize the impact of our firearms finding their way to the drug cartels?

As far as things like grenades,etc go, that is obviously an important, but different question since, as you point out, that is coming from different sources.

Our firearms are not a problem. They clearly have numerous sources for firearms since they very very clearly don't get all of them from the USA. That being the case, even if we were somehow able to ensure that absolutely no American guns made their way into the hands of Mexican cartels, the cartels would still be just as well armed. They don't even get the heavy artillery from the US anyway.

So no, our firearms are not a problem at all.

If a bunch of illegal street racers steal Fords, does Ford Motors have any blame for that? Can we safely assume that if Ford motors somehow made it impossible for those racers to steal Fords that the racers would steal different cars instead?

Wurble wrote:[


Our firearms are not a problem. They clearly have numerous sources for firearms since they very very clearly don't get all of them from the USA. That being the case, even if we were somehow able to ensure that absolutely no American guns made their way into the hands of Mexican cartels, the cartels would still be just as well armed. They don't even get the heavy artillery from the US anyway.

So no, our firearms are not a problem at all.

If a bunch of illegal street racers steal Fords, does Ford Motors have any blame for that? Can we safely assume that if Ford motors somehow made it impossible for those racers to steal Fords that the racers would steal different cars instead?

I think your Ford analogy is flawed. I like this one better: OK, so lets say I store my guns on my front porch - unlocked, the neighbor kids find them and use them to terrorize the neighborhood. Is it my fault those kids are bad? No. Could I have done more to keep my guns from falling into the hands of bad kids? Yes. Could I have done more to be a good neighbor and ensure the stability of the neighborhood? Yes. Could they have gotten some of the guns used in their terror spree from other places? Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that my behavior is contributing to the problem. Could they have gotten them all from someplace else if I hadn't stored my guns on my porch? Sure. But I did.

It is our fault the drug cartels are using guns for bad deeds? No. Could we do more to prevent our guns from falling into the hands of drug cartels? Maybe. Are some of their guns from somewhere else? Sure. If they didn't get them from us, would they get them somewhere else. Sure, but we aren't making things any easier.

mark wrote: It seems we all agree that our firearms contribute to the problem, and I think most of us would agree that a stable Mexico is good for the US, how can we help Mexico minimize the impact of our firearms finding their way to the drug cartels?

Heard a piece on the radio today that the Taliban has moved out of revolution and into narco-trafficking, at least they're on the way, just like the formerly Maoist FARC. Apparently some of the Taliban commanders have even taken their drug profits & moved to Dubai (wouldn't you?)

Really the best thing the U.S. could do for world stability is to lead legalization of drugs. Everything else is just a BANDAID over a massive chest wound.

Lesser discussed sources of weapons used by Mexican drug cartels:

Mexican Army:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Politi ... Mexico.pdf
This article is long, but takes a very in depth look at the top to bottom corruption of Mexico, which "fell" to the drug lords in the early 90s. Despite the corruption, the leaders in Mexico still have to make publicly popular stands, such as denouncing the U.S. for all of their problems.

China:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/65856
"For Georgina Sanchez, a researcher with the Latin American Social Sciences ("FLACSO") in Mexico, there is an amount estimated at between 12 and 20 million high power firearms, mostly AK-47s from China, and 40 million pistols and rifles, the majority of them in the hands of guerilla fighters, narcotraffickers and organized crime."

Everywhere else on earth:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 9992.story
"The enhanced weaponry represents a wide sampling from the international arms bazaar, with grenades and launchers produced by U.S., South Korean, Israeli, Spanish or former Soviet bloc manufacturers. Many had been sold legally to governments, including Mexico's, and then were diverted onto the black market. Some may be sold directly to the traffickers by corrupt elements of national armies, authorities and experts say."

The fact is, the international small arms market is like a many-headed hydra. For instance, China is now opening small arms factories in Venuzuela; who do you suppose the customers will be? You cannot control supply of anything--drugs, guns, nukes, etc. The only way to fight it is to reduce demand, reduce profits or both. Like I said, as long as prohibition provides the motive for murder and the money for weapons, there will be no change, except for the worse.

ZJohnson wrote:

mark wrote: It seems we all agree that our firearms contribute to the problem, and I think most of us would agree that a stable Mexico is good for the US, how can we help Mexico minimize the impact of our firearms finding their way to the drug cartels?

Heard a piece on the radio today that the Taliban has moved out of revolution and into narco-trafficking, at least they're on the way, just like the formerly Maoist FARC. Apparently some of the Taliban commanders have even taken their drug profits & moved to Dubai (wouldn't you?)

Really the best thing the U.S. could do for world stability is to lead legalization of drugs. Everything else is just a BANDAID over a massive chest wound.

I agree... I think this would be a *major* step.

mark wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02663.html

Here's the link to the Washington Post's ongoing investigation page regarding guns in America whiich includes some items previously posted by Mark as well as additional articles about NRA influence, "crime guns", and gun dealers. Interesting reading:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... part4.html

Oh oh! My first politically related post!

I suggest: legalization of marijuana! Take away a nice huge chunk of the drug trade, more money to the government through taxes, and increase jobs at the same time! Hemp farms, rollers...they all take hands.

I'd like to point out that I've never smoked marijuana, but I'm all for treating it like booze. Well, if they dropped the drinking age to 18.

On a significantly more serious note:

I think that straw purchasers should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. It doesn't matter where the guns are going. I also think that if Mexico wanted us to take over, what happens in their country would be more our responsibility than it currently is.

I may be wrong, I have not researched nearly as much as I should have.

But aren't a majority of U.S. guns used in Mexico bought legally through straw buyers?

So any change in laws would be worthless without a fool proof way to trace firearms back to the straw buyers? Does any sort of thing exist?

mark wrote:

ZJohnson wrote:

mark wrote: It seems we all agree that our firearms contribute to the problem, and I think most of us would agree that a stable Mexico is good for the US, how can we help Mexico minimize the impact of our firearms finding their way to the drug cartels?

Heard a piece on the radio today that the Taliban has moved out of revolution and into narco-trafficking, at least they're on the way, just like the formerly Maoist FARC. Apparently some of the Taliban commanders have even taken their drug profits & moved to Dubai (wouldn't you?)

Really the best thing the U.S. could do for world stability is to lead legalization of drugs. Everything else is just a BANDAID over a massive chest wound.

I agree... I think this would be a *major* step.

Legalize what drugs as a major step? Weed? I couldn't agree more. Meth? Crack? Heroine? Legalizing these would somehow be a positive thing? You've gotta be fuckin' shittin' me! You deal with the Taliban and the Mexican drug cartels by exterminating them like the roaches they are - no matter where you find them. Fuck Pakistan's or Mexico's (or anybody else's) sovereign borders: you take out the mongrels where you find them, you get serious about it, and you accept that blow-back is going to be part of it. Pussies exit stage left.

Stateside, you stop processing users through the criminal justice system and treat drug use as a medical issue and not a criminal issue, However, you treat producers, distributers, and dealers as the vermin they are and give them a fucking dirt nap or throw them under the prison. There are some evils that you simply must fight and to which you don't back down from - these include terrorists (of any flavor) and drug merchants. (Marijuana excluded).

Between anti terrorist and counter narcotics operations in the military or service in the correctional side of the criminal justice system, I've dealt with these cock suckers for a combined total of 26 years, and I've seen up close and personal the destruction and misery they cause. I'm not about to give the scum sanctuary, or give them cause to think they are legitimate merchants who provide a needed service, or give them a reason to believe they are fighting for the rights of their oppressed brothers or sisters. They're murders and scum - exterminate them.

ZAZ wrote:I may be wrong, I have not researched nearly as much as I should have.

But aren't a majority of U.S. guns used in Mexico bought legally through straw buyers?

So any change in laws would be worthless without a fool proof way to trace firearms back to the straw buyers? Does any sort of thing exist?

Papertrail, yes. Digital records, no.

Excellent interview on Fresh Air today with one of the journalists who wrote that piece for the WaPo. Very good explanation of the NRA and gun manufacturers efforts to (successfully) block ID checks and the ATF.
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/05/132652351 ... n-violence

Ogre wrote: Legalize what drugs as a major step? Weed? I couldn't agree more. Meth? Crack? Heroine? Legalizing these would somehow be a positive thing? You've gotta be fuckin' shittin' me! You deal with the Taliban and the Mexican drug cartels by exterminating them like the roaches they are - no matter where you find them. Fuck Pakistan's or Mexico's (or anybody else's) sovereign borders: you take out the mongrels where you find them, you get serious about it, and you accept that blow-back is going to be part of it. Pussies exit stage left.

Stateside, you stop processing users through the criminal justice system and treat drug use as a medical issue and not a criminal issue, However, you treat producers, distributers, and dealers as the vermin they are and give them a fucking dirt nap or throw them under the prison. There are some evils that you simply must fight and to which you don't back down from - these include terrorists (of any flavor) and drug merchants. (Marijuana excluded).

Between anti terrorist and counter narcotics operations in the military or service in the correctional side of the criminal justice system, I've dealt with these cock suckers for a combined total of 26 years, and I've seen up close and personal the destruction and misery they cause. I'm not about to give the scum sanctuary, or give them cause to think they are legitimate merchants who provide a needed service, or give them a reason to believe they are fighting for the rights of their oppressed brothers or sisters. They're murders and scum - exterminate them.

I think, by and large, we are on the same page - I think that when most people say 'legalize drugs' they are thinking of pot. I can't speak for everyone else but I am thinking about what Mexico did in its decriminalization of drugs - which is in line with what you said.

From the article linked to above:

His reasoning: It makes sense to distinguish between small-time users and big-time dealers, while re-targeting major crime-fighting resources away from the consumers and toward the dealers and their drug lord bosses.

"The important thing is . . . that consumers are not treated as criminals," said Rafael Ruiz Mena, secretary general of the National Institute of Penal Sciences. "It is a public health problem, not a penal problem."

and

Calderon originally wanted the bill to allow users caught with amounts within the limits to avoid jail time only if they agreed to rehabilitation. But the bill was changed to say only that treatment would be encouraged.

Then Calderon sought a provision in which a third-time offender would be obliged to seek treatment. That measure was removed, Ruiz Mena said, after debate over whether mandatory rehabilitation is ever effective.

I would be for treating pot like alcohol - same regulations and taxation. Other drugs, found in small amounts for personal use, get treated, as Calderon suggested, as a public health problem. Repeat offenders are forced to rehab or face jail time. After 2 forced rehabs you simply face jail. People that deal or distribute any of these illegal drugs (anything other than pot in this scenario) would be dealt with harshly.

I would be interested in Simmer Down's take on forced rehab and its effectiveness.

GlockLobster wrote:

ZAZ wrote:I may be wrong, I have not researched nearly as much as I should have.

But aren't a majority of U.S. guns used in Mexico bought legally through straw buyers?

So any change in laws would be worthless without a fool proof way to trace firearms back to the straw buyers? Does any sort of thing exist?

Papertrail, yes. Digital records, no.

Excellent interview on Fresh Air today with one of the journalists who wrote that piece for the WaPo. Very good explanation of the NRA and gun manufacturers efforts to (successfully) block ID checks and the ATF.
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/05/132652351 ... n-violence

Thanks, I'm a big fan of Terry Gross and Fresh Air. Every time I purchase a firearm in California the dealer completes the DROS that not only includes eligibility questions I have to answer (not a felon, not adjudicated insane, no DV issues etc) and also questions asking if I'm purchasing for my own use. I suppose a purchaser who straw purchases weapons for the cartels in California could be prosecuted if they were ever found.

Any barriers on the Federal level usually have the initials "NRA" all over them, not surprised they are opposed to computerized tracking. They have become a power unto themselves.