New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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Gun control is more than banning certain types of weapons. State and local laws affecting who can purchase and carry firearms may, in fact, be more effective than banning the sale and possession of automatic or semi-automatic weapons. That's the conclusion of a new study by researchers at Boston University that examined state gun laws in an effort to determine the impact of those laws, either singly or in conjunction with other laws, in lowering the rate of homicides and suicides in the state.

The study analyzed 10 different state firearms laws over a 26-year period and found three that, when enforced in conjunction with one another, reduced the rate of homicides and suicides by more than a third. Neither banning assault weapons nor banning high-capacity magazines shows any statistical significance in reducing firearm-related homicide rates, according to the study.

Atlantic Media's Citylab in a report on the study notes that there were more than 350,000 homicides committed in the United States during the study period. The homicide rate ranges from a low of 1.4 per 100,000 population in New Hampshire, which is one of the most peaceful states in the country, to a high of 12.7 per 100,000 in Louisiana. Adjusted for age, the homicide rate was 0.7 per 100,000 in New Hampshire and 9.8 per 100,000 in Louisiana, the most violent state in America. The study found no statistical significance related to an age requirement of 21 in order to purchase a handgun.

The three most effective state laws in reducing homicide rates were universal background checks, prohibiting people who have committed a violent offense from owning a handgun and "may-issue" as opposed to "shall-issue" concealed-carry permits. A may-issue permit is granted at the discretion of the police, while a shall-issue one allows no discretionary judgment provided the permit seeker is not disqualified on some other ground.

Of the 10 state laws reviewed, prohibiting handgun purchases for violent offenders reduced the homicide rate by 18%. Universal background checks, by themselves, reduced the rate by 15%, and may-issue concealed-carry laws reduced the rate by 10%. States where all three laws were enforced had a 36% lower homicide rate. States in which two of the three were enforced had a 13% lower rate, and in states where any one of the three was enforced the rate was 6% lower.

The policy implications of these numbers are important. According to a Pew Research Center report from last December, 57% of U.S. adults want stricter gun laws. The political divide is stark, however: 80% of self-described Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents favor stricter laws while just 28% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents do so. On one issue, however, 89% Democrats and Republicans agree: people who are mentally ill should be prevented from buying guns. Similarly, more than 80% of both parties agree that people on federal no-fly or watch lists should be prohibited from buying guns. Nine in 10 Democrats favor background checks for private gun sales, compared with about 80% of Republicans. Virtually all these issues would be subsumed in the Boston University study under the heading of universal background checks. And their overwhelming popularity should result in federal legislation requiring universal background checks for the sale of any gun.

Banning assault weapons, however, is far less popular, gaining support from about two-thirds of Americans, according to Citylab. Pew Research reported that Democrats (81%) are far more willing to ban assault-style weapons than are Republicans (50%). Views on bans of high-capacity magazines are split almost identically. Not only does either law demonstrate any statistical significance, but the partisan political split virtually guarantees that legislation banning either assault-style weapons or large magazines has little realistic chance of being enacted into law.

Citylab cites the researchers' policy conclusion:

The underlying goal of firearm policy should be to find the most effective ways of limiting access to firearms among individuals who are shown to be potentially dangerous based on their criminal history without casting the net so wide as to prevent law-abiding citizens from purchasing or possessing guns. This is precisely what our research suggests would be most effective: identifying people who are at the highest risk for violence based on a past history of violence or the presence of a restraining order and stringently enforcing that gun possession prohibition.

The full Boson University study is available behind a paywall from Springer Publishing.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... /39317131/

Change shall issue to may issue ? Concealed carry licensees are very law abiding, wish the whole study was available.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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Very curious about what they’re calling causation. Has ANY state moved from shall issue to may issue? The may issue states I can think of have very different economic conditions from many of the shall issue ones. Are there any may issue states that haven’t seen major urban booms in recent decades which have driven out most of the poor urban population? Lots to pick apart here, but also completely unsurprised at the assault magazine thingy conclusions.
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Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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Marlene wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:37 am Very curious about what they’re calling causation. Has ANY state moved from shall issue to may issue? The may issue states I can think of have very different economic conditions from many of the shall issue ones. Are there any may issue states that haven’t seen major urban booms in recent decades which have driven out most of the poor urban population? Lots to pick apart here, but also completely unsurprised at the assault magazine thingy conclusions.
Yes, wish there was access to the full published study, I'd like to see their data on concealed carry. I can't think of any state that went from shall issue to may issue.

From BU's article on the study from their School of Public Health. The study was published in March 2019.
Laws regulating the sale of assault weapons are unlikely to have a large impact on homicide rates, because these weapons are used in only a very small proportion of homicides. The vast majority of firearm homicides in the United States are committed with handguns. In contrast, laws that restrict access to firearms among those people who are at the greatest risk for violence—namely, people with a history of violence—are intervening among a subpopulation of people who are likely to commit crimes. In other words, you are intervening in the most focused way possible—that is, in high-risk situations. That appears to give you the greatest bang for your buck, so to speak.
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/state- ... un-deaths/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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Same main author of a study in 2017, probably copied across into the March 2019 study.
Results. Shall-issue laws were significantly associated with 6.5% higher total homicide rates, 8.6% higher firearm homicide rates, and 10.6% higher handgun homicide rates, but were not significantly associated with long-gun or nonfirearm homicide.
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/f ... 017.304057

It's just numbers of homicides, it doesn't appear they looked at if the homicide was justified or not. Police shootings are homicide so are self defense shootings, the justice system determines if they are justified.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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highdesert wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:44 am Police shootings are homicide so are self defense shootings, the justice system determines if they are justified.
This. If the study didn't account for justifiable homicide among CCW, the percentage isn't particularly useful (especially if the justifiable homicide is by a CCW in the home, in which case CCW is beside the point). Also note, that may/shall issue has the least impact of the three restrictions.

I'm ok with shall issue (though I favor a training component). If someone is willing to go through the background check for a permit, they are less likely to do bad things with the gun than an otherwise legal gun owner who shoves one down their pants sans permit (and obviously less likely than an illegal gun owner). There are very few instances of CCW holders and unjustified homicide (you can bet they'd be all over the news if otherwise).

I am also in favor of universal background checks, including private party transactions (sans registration--there's simply no reason for it), and prohibited persons. And that's roughly where my support for common sense gun control ends. You know, where there's actually support for common sense gun control being effective.

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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Interesting that they use New Hampshire as the example of the lowest murder rate- as it's also got one of the best Gini Index scores. It also has constitutional carry and some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country. The author of the original study it seems left out a ton of relevant variables, as is nailed down in something that has an even higher correlation here:
Inequality predicts homicide rates “better than any other variable”, says Martin Daly, professor emeritus of psychology and neuroscience at McMaster University in Ontario and author of Killing the Competition: Economic Inequality and Homicide.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... cide-rates
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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Almost, but not all of the states with the lowest gun homicide rates / 100,000 have all 3: strong background checks, prohibiting ownership by violent offenders, and may-issue carry permits. New York is 3rd, NJ is 6th. However, either density or total population need to be figured in because most of the states with low rates but liberal gun laws are sparse. Except Alaska. Denser states with liberal gun laws, like Louisiana, have a high rate, and dense states with strict laws have lower rates.

If I remember correctly the one outlier is Wisconsin, a dense state with liberal gun laws, yet a low homicide rate. I think it's Wisconsin.

Most cities have greatly reduced their overall homicide rate, NYC's being the most spectacular, going from 2400+ in 1990 to under 400 in recent years, despite the population increasing by well over a million in that time.

For cities with 1 million or more, only San Diego and San Jose have lower homicide rates than NYC. Same for overall crime rates.

I looked up gun deaths in NJ for the first months of the year 2018 and 2019 because in June 2018, the drop in Mag cap from 15 to 10 went into effect across our state. The first 3 months of 2019 had fewer gun deaths, but May and June had nearly double. It's not enough data points to make a statistically significant inference, but it does raise the question to be further studied if it made any difference at all.
Last edited by YankeeTarheel on Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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featureless wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
highdesert wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:44 am Police shootings are homicide so are self defense shootings, the justice system determines if they are justified.
This. If the study didn't account for justifiable homicide among CCW, the percentage isn't particularly useful (especially if the justifiable homicide is by a CCW in the home, in which case CCW is beside the point). Also note, that may/shall issue has the least impact of the three restrictions.

I'm ok with shall issue (though I favor a training component). If someone is willing to go through the background check for a permit, they are less likely to do bad things with the gun than an otherwise legal gun owner who shoves one down their pants sans permit (and obviously less likely than an illegal gun owner). There are very few instances of CCW holders and unjustified homicide (you can bet they'd be all over the news if otherwise).

I am also in favor of universal background checks, including private party transactions (sans registration--there's simply no reason for it), and prohibited persons. And that's roughly where my support for common sense gun control ends. You know, where there's actually support for common sense gun control being effective.
It gets some things right, as you've argued before, AR weapons are used if few firearms homicides and it's handguns not long guns used most often in homicides. I suspect that they looked at data from states that went from may issue to shall issue, but that's not a clear comparison. All homicides are not the same, even the law recognizes that there are different levels of murder that can be charged along with various levels of manslaughter, every case isn't the same.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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highdesert wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:06 pm
featureless wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
highdesert wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:44 am Police shootings are homicide so are self defense shootings, the justice system determines if they are justified.
This. If the study didn't account for justifiable homicide among CCW, the percentage isn't particularly useful (especially if the justifiable homicide is by a CCW in the home, in which case CCW is beside the point). Also note, that may/shall issue has the least impact of the three restrictions.

I'm ok with shall issue (though I favor a training component). If someone is willing to go through the background check for a permit, they are less likely to do bad things with the gun than an otherwise legal gun owner who shoves one down their pants sans permit (and obviously less likely than an illegal gun owner). There are very few instances of CCW holders and unjustified homicide (you can bet they'd be all over the news if otherwise).

I am also in favor of universal background checks, including private party transactions (sans registration--there's simply no reason for it), and prohibited persons. And that's roughly where my support for common sense gun control ends. You know, where there's actually support for common sense gun control being effective.
It gets some things right, as you've argued before, AR weapons are used if few firearms homicides and it's handguns not long guns used most often in homicides. I suspect that they looked at data from states that went from may issue to shall issue, but that's not a clear comparison. All homicides are not the same, even the law recognizes that there are different levels of murder that can be charged along with various levels of manslaughter, every case isn't the same.
It's all hella murky (technical term). Clear definitions and reporting protocol for all gun injuries, accidents and deaths would go a long way toward producing meaningful studies.

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:06 pm Almost, but not all of the states with the lowest gun homicide rates / 100,000 have all 3: strong background checks, prohibiting ownership by violent offenders, and may-issue carry permits. New York is 3rd, NJ is 6th.
Not actually true at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... icide_rate

Top 10 lowest are:
New Hampshire 1.0
North Dakota 1.3
Maine 1.7
Idaho 1.9
Rhode Island 1.9
Minnesota 2.0
Nebraska 2.2
Nevada 2.3
Utah 2.4

With the exception of Rhode Island, which is a hybrid, all of the top ten are shall issue. If we then get into the "but population" argument, then comparing TX to CA is helpful. They have the same murder rate (within .1 or .2 for the last 10 years) but very different gun laws. It's really a canard to try to use this as justification for those three things.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:06 pm I looked up gun deaths in NJ for the first months of the year 2018 and 2019 because in June 2018, the drop in Mag cap from 15 to 10 went into effect across our state. The first 3 months of 2019 had fewer gun deaths, but May and June had nearly double. It's not enough data points to make a statistically significant inference, but it does raise the question to be further studied if it made any difference at all.
The thing with magazine capacity is that most studies have shown that regular, run of the mill shootings don't involve many bullets, so magazine size really doesn't have much to do with most gun homicide. I won't argue that high capacity magazines don't have an effect on mass shootings (because I can't do that in good faith) but there are examples where 10 rounders still result in numerous deaths. The thing about mass shootings is that they are exceptionally rare. Weighed against the need for more than 10 rounds in self defense for those who are not "operators" vs. the negligible impact restrictions might have on a mass shooter who chooses to follow magazine laws, the scale tips in favor of them being legal. Not that anyone wants to think about these things critically, currently.

I guess my overall point is that all of the current proposals are based on limiting access to high capacity magazines and "assault rifles" when such are minuscule portion of overall gun violence while also being the most useful for 1) self defense and 2) #resist (should it ever come to that).

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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shinzen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:19 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:06 pm Almost, but not all of the states with the lowest gun homicide rates / 100,000 have all 3: strong background checks, prohibiting ownership by violent offenders, and may-issue carry permits. New York is 3rd, NJ is 6th.
Not actually true at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... icide_rate

Top 10 lowest are:
New Hampshire 1.0
North Dakota 1.3
Maine 1.7
Idaho 1.9
Rhode Island 1.9
Minnesota 2.0
Nebraska 2.2
Nevada 2.3
Utah 2.4

With the exception of Rhode Island, which is a hybrid, all of the top ten are shall issue. If we then get into the "but population" argument, then comparing TX to CA is helpful. They have the same murder rate (within .1 or .2 for the last 10 years) but very different gun laws. It's really a canard to try to use this as justification for those three things.
Wrong chart, Shinzen. That's overall homicides (did I say overall?) Gun death rates are very different (and if I didn't say gun deaths, I should have).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_d ... s_by_state
These are the 10 lowest
MA
RI
NY
HI
CT
NJ
MN
CA
ME
WA

Notice that of the group you list, they are all, except Minnesota, sparsely populated states.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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shinzen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:43 am Interesting that they use New Hampshire as the example of the lowest murder rate- as it's also got one of the best Gini Index scores. It also has constitutional carry and some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country. The author of the original study it seems left out a ton of relevant variables, as is nailed down in something that has an even higher correlation here:
Inequality predicts homicide rates “better than any other variable”, says Martin Daly, professor emeritus of psychology and neuroscience at McMaster University in Ontario and author of Killing the Competition: Economic Inequality and Homicide.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... cide-rates
Good article and the Democratic Party has controlled Chicago for how long - decades, a century? They should be pushing income equality, not the temporary and easy answer of guns. That won't cure their drug and gang problems.
Last edited by highdesert on Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:35 pm
senorgrand wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:30 pm I bet states with strong abortion laws have higher murder rates.
Ironic since they consider abortion to be "murder".
One of many clues that GOP lies about things. They pollute and take away worker rights. Medical care is an afterthought.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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The gun murder capital of the US per 100,000 inhabitants is DC, far ahead of the states. And DC has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US and probably more law enforcement per square mile than anyplace in the US. Vermont which recently had few firearms restrictions has a very, very low gun homicide rate. It's not the guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_d ... te#Murders
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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highdesert wrote:
shinzen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:43 am Interesting that they use New Hampshire as the example of the lowest murder rate- as it's also got one of the best Gini Index scores. It also has constitutional carry and some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country. The author of the original study it seems left out a ton of relevant variables, as is nailed down in something that has an even higher correlation here:
Inequality predicts homicide rates “better than any other variable”, says Martin Daly, professor emeritus of psychology and neuroscience at McMaster University in Ontario and author of Killing the Competition: Economic Inequality and Homicide.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... cide-rates
Good article and the Democratic Party has controlled Chicago for how long - decades, a century? They should be pushing income equality, not the temporary and easy answer of guns. That won't cure their drug and gang problems.
A Wall Street party isn’t going to step on Wall Street’s toes by introducing things like livable wages, universal healthcare, a massive program of public works, etc.

I also can’t say I am surprised to see cherry-picked statistics employed in various studies. Ultimately, cherry-picked statistics underpin the arguments used by the gun prohibition lobby. They give Donald Trump a run for his money when it comes to mythomania. However, their numerous lies have a veneer of “objectivity” due to the widespread use of cherry-picked statistics.


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"I have been saying for some time now that America only has one party - the property party. It's the party of big corporations, the party of money. It has two right-wings; one is Democrat and the other is Republican."
-Gore Vidal

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:27 pm
shinzen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:19 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:06 pm Almost, but not all of the states with the lowest gun homicide rates / 100,000 have all 3: strong background checks, prohibiting ownership by violent offenders, and may-issue carry permits. New York is 3rd, NJ is 6th.
Not actually true at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... icide_rate

Top 10 lowest are:
New Hampshire 1.0
North Dakota 1.3
Maine 1.7
Idaho 1.9
Rhode Island 1.9
Minnesota 2.0
Nebraska 2.2
Nevada 2.3
Utah 2.4

With the exception of Rhode Island, which is a hybrid, all of the top ten are shall issue. If we then get into the "but population" argument, then comparing TX to CA is helpful. They have the same murder rate (within .1 or .2 for the last 10 years) but very different gun laws. It's really a canard to try to use this as justification for those three things.
Wrong chart, Shinzen. That's overall homicides (did I say overall?) Gun death rates are very different (and if I didn't say gun deaths, I should have).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_d ... s_by_state
These are the 10 lowest
MA
RI
NY
HI
CT
NJ
MN
CA
ME
WA

Notice that of the group you list, they are all, except Minnesota, sparsely populated states.
The chart you are citing uses the combined homicide/suicide numbers. As we've discussed many times on this forum, conflating those two that have wildly different root causes doesn't actually help. Background checks, violent criminal checks, and may issue permits have zero bearing on suicides. And as I mentioned, TX and CA have virtually the same murder rate while having wildly different takes on gun laws- they are also the two states with the most population.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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shinzen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:47 pm And as I mentioned, TX and CA have virtually the same murder rate while having wildly different takes on gun laws- they are also the two states with the most population.
I find it no coincidence whatsoever that people live in those two wildly different states. We have to treat people, not guns.

CDFingers
God damn, well I declare, have you seen the like?
Their walls are built of cannon balls
Their motto is "don't tread on me"

Re: New study: Firearms bans are not the most effective

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CDFingers wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:23 pm
shinzen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:47 pm And as I mentioned, TX and CA have virtually the same murder rate while having wildly different takes on gun laws- they are also the two states with the most population.
I find it no coincidence whatsoever that people live in those two wildly different states. We have to treat people, not guns.

CDFingers
CD you are correct. I was talking with my wife about the shootings. She agreed that it isn't the gun that is the problem but the person behind the gun. The gun is nothing but a hunk of metal and plastic or wood. I will give ABC news credit for one thing. I was watching the news about the shootings and the did say the shooters were using Military Assault STYLE semi-automatic rifles. They actually got it right. :shock:
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
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