Bucolic wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:04 pm I have shot Gold Dots in 9 mm and 45 ACP with good results but have not tried them in .380. I should buy a bunch and shoot the hell out of them.

Lucky Gunner ammo tests show that Gold Dots expand reliably, but as with most JHPs in .380 that means marginal penetrations. I'd hate to get shot with one, but a really big/fat guy might survive a few.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-d ... ts/#380ACP

I'm not a lover of hollow points until we get to 9mm or .38 Special preferring round nose flat points for .380 acp or .32 acp. In .380, one of the offerings with Hornady XTP's is better as they control the expansion and allow great penetration before the bullet expands.

Something like 70% of people shot with handguns survive even with multiple wounds and are often not hurt bad enough to stop assaulting someone. Many drive themselves to a hospital later when they realize they are bleeding and in serious pain. The FBI and others have determined that there are only two factors involved in stopping an assailant with a handgun bullet. This would be placement and penetration - all other factors like speed, energy, caliber used etc together make less than 10% of the equation. It all comes down to placing the shots in a critical area in an attempt to get a CNS hit and to have enough penetration to reach those vital structures.

Hollow points are The Rage because they do not over penetrate and will not ricochet which makes them standard duty for police officers due to the reduction in liability for their employers. The cops I knew "back in the day" all carried wad cutters in their revolvers because they penetrate deeply and leave a gaping wound channel. The controlled expansion hollow points are a great compromise. I prefer round nose flat points for .380 and .32 but they do carry a risk of over penetration and shooting right thru a human.

Buffalo Bore makes a 100 gr. Flat Nose hardcast lead round that terrifies people because it over penetrates in gelatin. I dispute gelatin tests as it is standard media and does not replicate performance on humans.

VooDoo

VodoundaVinci said:

Something like 70% of people shot with handguns survive even with multiple wounds and are often not hurt bad enough to stop assaulting someone.

That is correct and that is why militaries focus on higher velocity firearms that can reliably produce greater hydrostatic shock.

As far as I can tell, the recommended practice by tacticians is to shoot for the center of mass with .357, .44 mag or .45 ACP and to shoot a bit above that (high chest and head) for .32, .380 and even .38 sp simply because of their lesser hydrostatic shock factor.

Of course, in an emergency, I think one is more likely to shoot for the center regardless of the handgun one is carrying.

As I have personal experience of bullet wounds (I was a Medical Warrant Officer in the Navy/Marines and served on the ground in Cambodia), I can attest to the fact that lower body wounds can be just as fatal as chest and above, but it can take a long time to "stop" the person. It often took the Combat Corpsmen and the Medivac crews several hours to extract and transport wounded Marines and get them back to the field hospital (MAST Units in the Navy/Marines). And we saw many Marines with serious wounds in the belly and trunk that had not stopped them from continuing to fight. Of course, they did have two advantages helping them survive: (1) tremendous physical conditioning; (2) well trained Navy Combat Corpsmen with legendary skill at keeping the wounded alive for several hours. And the majority of those wounds were with 7.62x39 shot from a Chinese made AK-47 or a Type 56. (I was in during the 70s, so there were very few Russian rifles left at that point. Also, the Khmer Rouge were the enemies of the NVA, so they had very different weapon supply chains.)

The ballistics of the 7.62x39 averaged roughly 1,500 ft lbs of energy. (2,033 Nm)
(http://www.ballistics101.com/7.62x39.php)

The new .380 I am carrying delivers roughly 200 ft lbs (271 N M) from a standard pressure round - ON A GOOD DAY.
(http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php)

So the 7.62x39 round has 7.5 times more energy to deliver. Of course, even the NVA used Geneva Convention approved ammunition and did not use (many) hollow points in either Cambodia or Vietnam.

From up close experience (as in I was involved in the surgery itself), I don't think I could say that the 7.62x39 did 7.5 times as much damage as a pistol caliber round; I would go for 3 times as much damage. So even rifle powered rounds did not "stop" Marines if they did not hit the right target zone.

And, in the legal videos I have been required to watch for my fun owner insurance, there are many references to the fact that simply presenting a gun with the intent to fire stops many casual assaults (especially where the aggressor has no firearm.) I am not proposing "brandishing", but if there is a borderline case and one feels life is in danger, then presenting and telling the aggressor "stop or I will shoot you" seems to work against non-gun toting and no-drug crazed assailants.

Of course, one cannot rely upon this factor. If the gun comes out, be ready to fire, and be justified or go to jail for a very long time.

To my knowledge there is no significant hydrostatic shock with handgun rounds. The velocity is simply too slow. Handgun rounds must be placed in critical areas and penetrate deeply enough to reach critical structures. The only two relevant factors, according to many others including the FBI, are placement and penetration. All other factors combined have very little effect on stopping the attack. This is why in accumulated shooting statistics .45 acp and even .357 magnum to not have one shot stop capability/statistics that dwarf .32, .380. 9mm etc.

In one very important study I read the initial data showed .32 ACP as having better one shot stops than a .45 ACP but the author threw that statistic out of his conclusions because he didn't believe it. Several studies show pip squeek calibers having as good (nearly as good) one shot stops as the Chest thumper calibers. Hand guns suck at stopping a human. He may die tomorrow of blood loss or shock but for right now he is not affected. We used to kill cows simply and easily with a .22 on the farm but people tell me they will 'bounce right off" of a human skull. The only person I ever saw killed with a handgun was DRT (Dead Right There) via 3X of .25 ACP - a caliber that Jeff Cooper told folks not to shoot anyone with because it'll just make them mad.

Placement (accuracy and knowledge of where to shoot a person) and sufficient penetration to get to that organ or structure are the only significantly relevant factors with handguns.

My FIL was a cop and his sons were cops and I was fortunate enough to interview old cops (guys who were in their prime in the 20's and '30's) who had actually been shot and shot other people. In some cases they had been involved in multiple gun fights in their careers and had the scars to prove it. One guy impressed on me the power of a gut shot instead of the standard of shooting center of the chest. He said he had seen several folks shot point blank with .38's and .45's in the chest who were unfazed but every person he ever saw shot it the stomach collapsed instantly. As had he when shot in the stomach. Like being punched in the stomach, they doubled over, dropped what was in their hands, and clutched their midsection and passed out. This is a reflex - when punched/shot in the guts a human reflexively doubles over and drops what's in their hands. They will recover soon enough but in the meantime their attack is derailed better than shooting them in the chest.

I learned a lot of gruesome things about handgun combat and wounds from old cops back in Prohibition.

VooDoo

Interesting discussion. My go-to pistol these days is the Kahr CW380. Been back to the factory once, for the usual Kahr issues of FTE and FTF on new pistols - but no problems after that. Followed the 200+ round recommended break-in.

Compact, full 3 dots sights. Butter smooth trigger. Fits and conceals well in a Desantis pocket holster! No excuse to not take a pistol when leaving the house. As Wino said, in this day and age, no reason to not CC.

This discussion got me to do something I don't normally do this past weekend - I practiced with my carry piece. Normally I just shoot my target pistols, but I got to thinking that I should probably add some defensive practice to my routine.

If I ever get to carry, it will most likely be my 9mm shield. Operates just like the full size M&P and is quite manageable. Until then, I go into the world armed with snark and foul language.

I haven't carried my P290 in a while. I pulled it out this weekend and realized why I like it so much. I forgot how easy it is to carry, too. Nice to be reunited.

Thanks for the reminder and info, VooDoo!

Yep, while my target pistols are more fun to shoot, I try to pull out the carry at every other session (equating once a month or so) and put 100 rounds through it. Have probably put 3,000 or so through so far after carrying for over 2 years.

Always chambered with SIG 124gr JHP.

Springfield XD9 mod2. I prefer single action and double stack. All my guns are SA and my 3 9mm are double stack. My hands are small but I like the fatter grip. I carry chambered and I carry in my bag often. Very specific rules for bag carry, including dedicated pocket on the body side, cross-body only, specific holster for bag carry, and always in control of the bag. If I remove it, it's between my feet with the strap around my leg. If it's in a booth next to me, it's always on the inside with my arm through it still. Since it's cross-body the strap is longer and doesn't garner attention by looking weird.

The best part of bag carry is in jacket/coat weather when I don't have to compromise long coats and warmth for carry. Plus I can open the compartment and walk around with my hand on the grip if I feel the need and no one's the wiser. Yes there can be drawbacks to bag carry. I have considered them and compensated fairly well for them. Situational awareness, both for yourself and as observed by would-be attackers, also goes a long way toward not being a target.

SeaDragonTattoo wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:21 pm Situational awareness, both for yourself and as observed by would-be attackers, also goes a long way toward not being a target.

Yes, running is preferable to shooting. Always.

Eris wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:19 pm This discussion got me to do something I don't normally do this past weekend - I practiced with my carry piece. Normally I just shoot my target pistols, but I got to thinking that I should probably add some defensive practice to my routine.

My EDC is first gun I shoot when I go to range. Twice over the years I've had them malfunction - not very good feeling - thankful I hadn't needed in real life, or we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'll run two three mags of SD ammo and FMJ.

I bought Speer LE Gold Dot for my .380 ACP. I did not like it.

I am sticking with my Fiocchi XTP JHP in .380 as carry ammo. (300+ rounds with zero failures and I trust the ammo.

I put a separate thread under Hardware/Ammo because it seems a little off topic here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51641

And here is my new P238 - shoots like a dream.

max129 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:16 pm I bought Speer LE Gold Dot for my .380 ACP. I did not like it.

I am sticking with my Fiocchi XTP JHP in .380 as carry ammo. (300+ rounds with zero failures and I trust the ammo.

I put a separate thread under Hardware/Ammo because it seems a little off topic here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51641

And here is my new P238 - shoots like a dream.

p238.jpeg

Those P238s are really affordable, too. Nice looking pistol!

max129 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:16 pm And here is my new P238 - shoots like a dream.

p238.jpeg

Dude - those things on the back. Is that..a...a...hammer? And a safety? The horror!

It is a nice looking gun!

AndyH wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:07 pm

max129 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:16 pm And here is my new P238 - shoots like a dream.

p238.jpeg

Dude - those things on the back. Is that..a...a...hammer? And a safety? The horror!

It is a nice looking gun!

Wood, metal, hammer fired.... just as described in the prophecies.

K9s wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:31 am It is funny how what one person likes, another person dislikes. There is no perfect solution for everyone. After a few years or decades of carrying, your preferences and body will change.

Agree 100%. The weapon and belt/holster have to be a system that works together. Body shape, work and play environments, and local laws all vary for all of us.

Here in Border Texas it's not really uncommon to see some rancher or ranch hand carrying openly. I am a Texas Correctional Officer, and we are encouraged to carry off duty. Plus, I have done some undercover work for other authorities so I carry 99% of the time. I carry a Glock 17 on a Sam Brown police-style belt, with two magazines and a multitool on the other side to balance the weight. I am big enough that I can conceal everything under a Safari jacket that I keep in my truck. My holster of choice is a Blackhawk Serpa. Glocks aren't my favorite choice (terrible trigger and not that accurate in my opinion) but if I need to draw my weapon I can push the button on the holster, and pull that pistol immediately. With a Glock there is no safety to release so it's ready to go once drawn from the holster. I also have my weapon tethered with a Blackhawk tether - I don't plan to lose that sucker.

For obvious reasons most folks prefer a smaller, more easily concealed weapon. Most personal defense shootings seem to be one to three shots, but I have seen enough reports of law enforcement and individuals having to hold off a number of bad guys so that I prefer having the 17 rounds in the weapon plus 2 extra magazines. Just in case.

I'm going to commit sacrilege here, and I know there are very contrary points of view.

My personal experience with the 1911 ended in 1978 when I returned to Geneva Convention regs and did not carry a firearm (Medical Warrant Officer). Since I was no longer in a combat zone, I did not need to qualify with a pistol at all. I did need to qualify with an M16 once a year. So I hadn't held or shot a 1911 since '78. My own firearms were mostly revolvers and hunting rifles until 1992 when I bought a Beretta 92FS. One thing I liked about the Beretta is that it was not a sloppy gun; all the 1911s I fired in the military were rattle traps - it left a bad impression on me.

3 years ago, I bought my first striker fired pistol. Everyone agreed they are excellent. They are really fun to shoot and I will never part with my Sig Sauer P320s (C and SC). But I now confess that I really did not think that much about striker fired vs hammer fired.

Now I carry a mini 1911 clone and I had to think my way through the whole thing again. I am in the camp of "all steel/metal and wood is a 'real' gun'" but I still own polymer striker fired pistols.

I sold my P365 (just had no need for it). But I will tell you it had a GREAT trigger. Perhaps too great. There was very little travel and it was light. Less than 4 lbs (stock). It has no safety. I know, people think they have outgrown safeties. Not me. I consider my two Sig p320s suited for two purposes: (1) Range guns without equal; (2) Home defense - as in Reliability, capacity, precision, firepower. They are really great.

What about carry? Well, let's go back to the 1911 and Condition 1 vs Condition 0. Some people are horrified at Condition 1. You can 'see' that it is cocked. You cannot 'see' that it is locked (safety is usually not visible.) Well what is a P320 with a round in the chamber: Condition 0. It is "cocked" and not locked. The only safety features are that it has been drop tested and the travel+force required to fire the gun. In all the Striker fired guns I have shot, the trigger travel was short and the pressure required to fire was on the low side. That is why people LOVE the triggers on the Glocks, Sigs, etc. that are striker fired.

But, if there is one in the chamber, they are being carried at Condition 0. And I am not willing to carry at Condition 0. This is not a projection I will make onto other people. I am just not personally willing to carry a loaded, "cocked" 9mm with no safety as a 7/24 carry gun. I am willing to have one loaded in the safe in case someone wants to come through the door, but not carry on my person.

What about my J-Frame? A very long trigger pull and more than 12lbs of force required. My P320s have a very short rigger travel and a light (delightful) trigger release.

There is a part of me that thinks striker fired guns are really not ideal for civilian carry unless the person is essentially a firearms professional. I am not. I am well trained, I practice, I am as safe as I can be. But I am not a cop and I am not going to carry a striker fired pistol in Condition 0 unless I am in a hot zone.

If I could buy my P320s again, I would likely buy MA legal ones (I know people hate the safety - I have been told, trust me.) As it is, I really like the 1911 mini model of the P238. And I make sure all my holsters fully cover the safety.

Amen

max129 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:42 pm I'm going to commit sacrilege here, and I know there are very contrary points of view.

Come on in - the water's fine!

max129 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:42 pm One thing I liked about the Beretta is that it was not a sloppy gun; all the 1911s I fired in the military were rattle traps - it left a bad impression on me.

I'm in the same camp here. I know some are interested in collecting and tuning and doing all the sorts of things with guns that I prefer to do with radios. I want the gun to work out of the box. I enjoy shooting our 92FS/M9A1, but my Glocks just fit better. I have never been able to quickly aim the Beretta or a Sig naturally the way I can the products conceived by the Prophet Gaston. But hey - everyone needs a hobby. Some people like to restore Chevy Novas, and others like 1911s. No problem! (...running for cover...)

max129 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:42 pm What about carry? Well, let's go back to the 1911 and Condition 1 vs Condition 0. Some people are horrified at Condition 1. You can 'see' that it is cocked. You cannot 'see' that it is locked (safety is usually not visible.) Well what is a P320 with a round in the chamber: Condition 0. It is "cocked" and not locked. The only safety features are that it has been drop tested and the travel+force required to fire the gun. In all the Striker fired guns I have shot, the trigger travel was short and the pressure required to fire was on the low side. That is why people LOVE the triggers on the Glocks, Sigs, etc. that are striker fired.

But, if there is one in the chamber, they are being carried at Condition 0. And I am not willing to carry at Condition 0. This is not a projection I will make onto other people. I am just not personally willing to carry a loaded, "cocked" 9mm with no safety as a 7/24 carry gun. I am willing to have one loaded in the safe in case someone wants to come through the door, but not carry on my person.

I consider my G19 carry gun to be in condition 1 (though could be seen as 2 as well, I guess): Mag inserted, round in the chamber, and holstered. I know the trigger safety thing will prevent most inadvertent activations, and that the striker block will prevent other issues. For that gun, it's holstered and 'on safe' but immediately ready to fire should the need arise.

I'm using this as a convenient reference today as I don't recall in which stack Cooper's handgun rules are at the bottom of...
http://concealednation.org/2015/08/fire ... -all-mean/

My 1911 is not a carry weapon. My Sig P-227 is a carry weapon. I can carry with a round in the chamber, hammer down. And no safety. But the first round is double action follow up rounds single with semi auto. Trigger has a fast reset and is light after first round fired. My other carry handguns are my Rutgers Alaskan and my S&W 686 plus 3 inch. Both revolvers. No safeties hammer down but double action.

TrueTexan said:

My Sig P-227 is a carry weapon. I can carry with a round in the chamber, hammer down. And no safety. But the first round is double action follow up rounds single with semi auto.

That is what I like about the Beretta 92FS. The Double/Single cycle makes sense to me.

max129 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:00 pm

TrueTexan said:

My Sig P-227 is a carry weapon. I can carry with a round in the chamber, hammer down. And no safety. But the first round is double action follow up rounds single with semi auto.

That is what I like about the Beretta 92FS. The Double/Single cycle makes sense to me.

I love my 1911s, but I carry a P220 for that reason.