In computer engineering during the 1970s, all real programming languages needed a 'compiler' - a one time conversion of the higher level code to machine code. There was a lot of experimentation with making a compiler from rules-tables - so when the UNIX System added a compiler-compiler (a compiler that makes compilers from rules), they named it YACC for "Yet Another Compiler Compiler" - to this day, YACC is useful.

In that spirit (and not in beating a dead horse), I am giving my personal inputs on the 'Carry Gun' issues. YACGD = Yet Another Carry Gun Discussion.

I have been carrying full time for about 2 years now. I am pretty committed. I left my firearm at home to go see Elton John because I was pretty sure they would have metal detectors; and I was right. Other than a very few exceptions such as that, I have carried while home in Nevada for 2 years. I have learned a lot:

1. You would really need to dress around any medium or full sized gun - and I mean major baggy clothes or a coat over everything. I live in Southern Nevada - it gets to 115 degrees here in the Summer months.

2. A small J-Frame revolver ought to be the ideal solution. But the compromises are glaring: (a) 5 round capacity; (b) speed loaders are hard to carry and look normal; (c) speed strips work great, but are slow to use; (d) the very, very long trigger pulls are more than a chance to practice, they may be a disaster in a conflict if the danger is more than 10 feet away (you could hit a bystander). Don't get me wrong, I actually have carried a J-Frame for almost 2 years, but it is a real compromise.

3. The small, lower cost auto .380s are also serious compromises (I have now rented 6 of them and passed 100 rounds through all 6).

4. The Sig P365 was supposed to be my solution. What a sweet shooter. After a 300 round break-in, zero FTF. You can drive tacks with that sucker. BUT, it is actually a bit too large for a pocket. If you wear it OWB (my preference) it prints like a monster using ANY shirt I can find. IWB is uncomfortable and wears your skin raw (for this, I blame the holsters as much as the gun.) AND, it has a very short stroke, light trigger pull. Not an ideal combination for a civilian. If I could have a P365 with a safety, I might go back to it. (Maybe there is a MA version? I'll have to look.) But from drop-tested or not, the thing that makes is SO GREAT to shoot make it feel dangerous to carry.

5. I tried to go with a S&W Bodyguard 380. (My failure is what caused my tests with 6 OTHER low cost .380s.) The only good thing about the Bodyguard is that is caused me to consider the .380 round. Certainly not a 9mm or a .357, but still a powerful round as noted by others. (Many dead soldiers in WWII from .380s. The Israeli police still carry .380s.) The S&W Bodyguard I bought had light primer strikes on 1 round out of 12 - scary. The "double strike" concept is fine, but in more than 10 FTFs, the double strike only worked once. The other 9, I pulled the trigger multiple time with no 'bang'. After more research, this is the NUMBER 1 complaint about the gun. And the tigger pull is sooo long and scratchy it is worse than my J-Frame.

6. On the 7th .380 test, I rented a shot-to-hell Sig P238. This thing looked like a pile of junk. They must have rented it 500 times. It was a tiny bit rattly, but I could shoot with it. So I did a lot of research. Rented another P238 and tried it. And now it is my new carry gun. More details ...

Is the P238 perfect? How could it be? It is a pocket sized gun. Not perfect. The trigger is a bit too heavy to pull. The grip size is a bit too small. In order to use it properly, you need to carry it in M1911 Condition 1 (Locked and Cocked). It only holds 6+1 (My P365 held 10+1). And it is a .380.

So enough for compromises.

What about the Condition 1 issues? Well, that is actually what I wished I could have with a P365. Loaded, Cocked and add a safety. Just because a striker fired gun does not have a hammer does not mean it is not cocked. If my P365 had a safety, I would figure out how to carry it. (Instead I traded it.)

In addition, the P238 does not have a light trigger - I actually find it slight heavier than I want for practice - PERFECT! That makes it safer to carry, but a better shooter than my J-Frame or the Bodyguard. Why? It has a shorter single action pull (still heavyish, but manageable), and a very clean, crisp firing sequence. With the combination of the safety and the slightly heavy trigger, it really feels safe. The single action bit seems to be important.

It carries like a dream. Some clothes require the shorter 6 round magazine, but the spare mag is SO MUCH smaller and easier to hide than the frankly large mag of the P365. Normally, I can carry 7+1 using the 7 round magazines (I bought all Springfield mags - about 1/2 the price of the Sig magazines and they work perfectly.)

And it fits in a normal jeans front pocket.

Holsters:
My two favorite holsters are both Winthrops: My J Frame and my P238 OWB are perfect. They ride high and tight, but they don't rub. Perfect balance. I have a single hook IWB I may use some. I bought a De Santis Pocket Holster, but I am going to send it back. Why? Well, it fits well, but does not cover the safety. That is a deal breaker for me. If I am going to carry a 1911 clone in my pocket, the holster need to cover the safety. I do have another generic pocket holster that fits well enough and DOES cover the safety.

How does it shoot? Really well. Not as fun and easy as my larger guns or my P365 - and not 'fun' to hold and shoot. But I put 100 rounds through it yesterday and I am willing to go do that tomorrow. I am NOT willing to put 100 rounds through my J-Frame 2 days in a row. And I hit within 5 inches of my bullseye for every one of 100 rounds. Most of them just made a ragged hole in the center (7 yards). If I could do that with my J-Frame, I would just carry it. But a distressing number of my J-Frame shots seem "wild" (very, very long and heavy trigger pull on the J-Frame).

Oh, and new out of the box, it went more than 150 rounds the first session. No failures of any kind. My P365 took 300 rounds just to break in to solve its return to battery issues.

I am convinced I am getting the benefit of several years of refinement in the P238.

I am open to other "perfect" carry guns. I know that many people simply wear a big outside shirt and carry a bigger firearm. That doesn't work for me, but it may be ideal for others. In my PERFECT world, I could carry my Sig P320 Compact (with a safety if I had one) and feel I was not making a compromise. But where I live, one wears enough clothes to hide a P320 about 2 months of the year.

Comments? Suggestions? Other perfect carry guns?

And how about concealed carry overall?
- I would never open carry. I am not a policeman and I don't want to stay 5 feet away from everyone so they cannot grab my open firearm.
- Concealed carry is not a 'hassle' - it is a commitment. You either commit or you do not. I am committed. My experiment ended 18 months ago. I am very comfortable carrying all the time in Nevada.
- How often have I 'needed' the gun. Zero holster draws. And I a hope it stays that way. But, I have been in at least 2 spots where I was glad I had a firearm. No brandishing; no warnings; but I was thinking of unholstering. And that is not seriously unusual. When I travel to NYC (often), I WISH I had a firearm about once a month. Not use, but 'have'.
- Carrying changes my range time. I practice rapid target acquisition and forget about hitting bullseyes. It is good for my shooting. I am safer, more disciplined and I feel like I practice enough to carry.
- I pay for some lightweight tactical training. There are some really great professional instructors in Las Vegas (mostly police department work) and they give me excellent training. BUT, I am not trying to prove anything; I actually just want to compensate for not being in my 30s anymore (I am in my 60s now - not so strong and not so fast anymore.)
- Concealed carry works for me. I have no illusions that if I had to use my firearm that the consequences are nil - it could get serious. I do have gun owners insurance and I may buy some more.

While a J-Frame has downsides, maybe consider a DAO (hammerless) airweight .357? "Only five" rounds means something different when it is a .357 Magnum.

When do I shoot a J-Frame? I religiously take a box of 50 38+p every time I go to the range and shoot a j-frame revolver. Sometimes I shoot great, sometimes not so great. After a while, it became almost mechanical and my shot placement is pretty decent. That is all I want from my carry revolvers.

This isn't a popular viewpoint, but it works for me. Sometimes the revolver is my only carry piece. Sometimes it is a backup. I feel good about them, though. A 38 Special revolver is good enough for most situations.

I carry every day...even at work now with permission from the CEO who also carries everywhere/all the time. One *has* to find the gun that works for them and then buy a carry system (holster, belts, etc) that suits their skills and preferences and then dress around the gun. There is no other way to be armed with a concealed weapon and not have to compromise/change/adapt ones dress style.

I lost 30 pounds to be able to carry Appendix comfortably and when not working I carry two guns - a Beretta Px4 SC 9mm Appendix and a Beretta Pico .380 back pocket as a BUG/New York Reload. This is the Midwest and in the Summer humidity tops 90% and temps are often in the 90's. When working I wear dress paramedic pants and carry a Sig P290 RS 9mm in my right hand cargo pocket. I have a belt that goes with everything. I thought it looked kinda "tactical" but no one has ever said a word even when worn with dress clothes.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/25261 ... ckle-nylon

A good belt is paramount as are pants that are designed correctly and the right holsters and carry positions. What we carry, where we carry it, how we carry it, and how we dress and accessorize are critical components to going armed at all times. It's a compromise. Personally I have no use for 5 round revolvers as they don't hide any better than pistols, kick like mules, and are arguably the hardest platform to master marksmanship with. But that's me. We (my Wife and I) have rehabilitated dozens of smaller women who were convinced (for/by whoever) to carry *Huge!* unreasonable firearms and were miserable and ineffective until we showed them .32 acp, .380 acp, and 9mm platforms.

It's a lot of work and practice to pull off all the time/everywhere concealed carry and be proficient with the weapons carried. It's a compromise. and one size/style/mindset will never work for everyone - there are some general rules but each and every individual must find their own Way.

VooDoo

I carry every day (or every time I leave home) I'm going on 8 years CC, normally a small or medium sized pistol .40S&W, but do carry a PT92 9mm size for malling and mass crowd events (where allowable). I'm three years into OWB ONLY - I no longer do any IWB. Have a Shiner Belly and wear loose fitting camp style or rayon print Florida type shirts in Texas summer. Camp shirts stepped up a size and rayon up two/three sizes due to shrinkage. Have never had a problem being exposed or called for CC, with exception where I inadvertently got shirt caught behind grip whilst reaching for some canned goods at grocery. No one said anything in a no open carry store and I didn't realize I was exposed until was loading goods in truck - this has happened twice.

A good gun belt (I have a couple of BladeTech woven and ratchet) and couple of really cheap DeSantis EconoBelt. All work well compared to using normal belts. Have the Econos for about 6 years, and BladeTech 3 yrs. along with OWB only. Leather holsters I've settled on DeSantis for most - full size, mini-slide or mini holster; also have clipless Remora, which is ONLY IWB I do and that's around home and for quick errand runs.

No recommendations on CC perfect gun - that's too personal. I also don't give vacs, loungerie as gifts to women nor pick out a gun for them.

IMHO, most people over think CC. It's not rocket science and other people are oblivious to anything around them, so chances of noticing are slim to none unless one is wearing a muscle shirt leaving no doubt.

In this day and time there is no way I would not CC.

I carry, but in my purse, not my belt. It's not quick to get out, but that just means my first reaction to any situation is to get to cover or get away, which is probably a decent strategy in any event. I carry a Walther PK380 - DA/SA semi-auto with an easy to use manual safety that blocks the hammer. I carry it cocked and locked.

K9s said:

While a J-Frame has downsides, maybe consider a DAO (hammerless) airweight .357? "Only five" rounds means something different when it is a .357 Magnum.

K9s - thanks for the input. I basically agree.

You described the J-Frame I carry. A S&W M&P 340 in .357 Magnum. I will keep it forever. One thing about revolvers, if kept in decent condition, there are close to zero failures and recovering from a failure to fire is a trigger pull away. My shot placement is 'decent' just not comforting. I hit the body sized zone. But my preference is to practice with more precision that I think I need in a pinch.

I just put another hundred rounds through my new Sig P238 this morning. I shot 30 rounds from 10 yards rather rapid fire (just enough time to reacquire the target). All 30 rounds where within a paper plate size zone with a very jagged hole in the middle. I cannot reproduce those results with my S&W 340 even after a year of constant practice. I can do better than that with my S&W 686 (I can keep within a paper plate at 20 yards with my 686 even semi rapid fire). But I just cannot get there with my S&W 340. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I suck at small revolvers even though I see their benefits. But it is not for lack of practice or instruction.

All of this is to say that the .357 J-Frame is a great gun, but not for me as a primary carry. I lack the confidence that I can avoid wild shots in an emergency with the J-Frame. I have been carrying my P238 for about a week. I feel far more confident that I will not have wild shots with my new carry piece.

And I can see from the other posts of those I know carry that there is no one best gun. I watch a few Paul Harrell videos - his assertion is that one must find the best fit for the individual's circumstances. And in this post I tried to describe that I have found to work best for me.

Eris' story shows a completely different profile for a grossly similar use case (concealed carry). I always carry on my person, never in a bag of any kind. If I carried in a bag or a purse, I would likely have arrived at a different firearm choice. For example, I think if I carried in a bag, I would likely carry a 9mm.

max129 wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:37 pm If I carried in a bag or a purse, I would likely have arrived at a different firearm choice. For example, I think if I carried in a bag, I would likely carry a 9mm.

I started out with a 9mm Ruger American Pistol - 17 rounds mags, full size pistol - but after a couple of months I decided it was just too heavy. That's when I got the Walther.

Max, what is your carry ammo in the 238? Thanks.

I carry rarely, so I choose a revolver because it’s about as close to idiot proof as you can get. Mine is an LCR in 327, which addresses a few of the problems noted in the OP. Six shots, and a great (though still long) trigger pull. It’s not a 357, but 327 will give 38+p a run for its money. And I can practice down to 32 S&W long, though 32 H&R is the sweet spot I find.

max129 wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:37 pm

K9s said:

While a J-Frame has downsides, maybe consider a DAO (hammerless) airweight .357? "Only five" rounds means something different when it is a .357 Magnum.

K9s - thanks for the input. I basically agree.

You described the J-Frame I carry. A S&W M&P 340 in .357 Magnum. I will keep it forever. One thing about revolvers, if kept in decent condition, there are close to zero failures and recovering from a failure to fire is a trigger pull away. My shot placement is 'decent' just not comforting. I hit the body sized zone. But my preference is to practice with more precision that I think I need in a pinch.

I just put another hundred rounds through my new Sig P238 this morning. I shot 30 rounds from 10 yards rather rapid fire (just enough time to reacquire the target). All 30 rounds where within a paper plate size zone with a very jagged hole in the middle. I cannot reproduce those results with my S&W 340 even after a year of constant practice. I can do better than that with my S&W 686 (I can keep within a paper plate at 20 yards with my 686 even semi rapid fire). But I just cannot get there with my S&W 340. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I suck at small revolvers even though I see their benefits. But it is not for lack of practice or instruction.

All of this is to say that the .357 J-Frame is a great gun, but not for me as a primary carry. I lack the confidence that I can avoid wild shots in an emergency with the J-Frame. I have been carrying my P238 for about a week. I feel far more confident that I will not have wild shots with my new carry piece.

And I can see from the other posts of those I know carry that there is no one best gun. I watch a few Paul Harrell videos - his assertion is that one must find the best fit for the individual's circumstances. And in this post I tried to describe that I have found to work best for me.

Eris' story shows a completely different profile for a grossly similar use case (concealed carry). I always carry on my person, never in a bag of any kind. If I carried in a bag or a purse, I would likely have arrived at a different firearm choice. For example, I think if I carried in a bag, I would likely carry a 9mm.

You know I love my SIGs. I would prefer to carry a P290, P224, P220, P226, etc over a revolver. For me, the revolver is a compromise. I had to work at it and it isn't as "fun" to shoot. It is just very utilitarian (light and reliable).

I have never shot a P238, but I would probably fall in love with it. The 9mm P290 is awesome for me and accurate at long distance (but a little chunky and heavy). A Taurus TCP is one of my favorites, too. My tastes have changed over the years but the revolver, P290, and/or TCP are what I carry concealed.

If you love the P238, then you have already found your carry gun. Don't fight love.

I tried carrying on my hip, it caused bursitis. Appendix just didn't work for me because when I sat down it was pointed at my femoral artery. And when you have a bladder the size of a thimble, having to deal with the gun 10 times a day was too much of a hassle. Soooo....

I wear mine over my shoulder like a purse. I don't have it stuffed full like the one in the video, so it can pass as a purse a little better.

Bucolic, I carry Fiocchi JHP. I have tried 10 different types of ammo with no failures, but the Fiocchi is my new “Remington.”

I am on my phone now so cannot easily look up the exact name but it is the XTP carry ammo.

Thanks Max. I had some problems with my P238 that it would occasionally not feed the Hornaday Critical Defense ammo. So I am looking for something with good expansion that feeds reliably.

My spousal critter really wanted a P238. I consider an SAO to be dubious for a newbie who isn't going to want to drill constantly. I wouldn't trust myself to remember to take off the safety, either, since most of my shooting doesn't require that, or to do it reliably with a miniature version like that. I lobbied for the P290 .380 (bonus feature: old-stock NIB was cheap due to the less popular caliber). She's not thrilled with the accuracy of the long DAO action, but it seems safest and KISS-compliant. It's not a target gun, so the only thing I'm not completely happy with is the speed of fire. Needs work. I should try to convince her to shoot at a bigger and closer target and not worry about group size too much with that gun.

Since we were getting into .380, I bought a Bersa .380CC. I always thought the original Thunder was good-looking. The CC is slightly less-so, but that's not the point. It's actually quite easy and fun to shoot (which is also not the point, perhaps). SA rapid fire goes very quickly, by my glacial standards. Last range trip, I worked a bit on quick point-shooting at 5 yards in both DA and SA from low-ready. I was consistently off to the left, mostly by 3-6" and tended to be a few inches low as well, but it was better than I expected since I've very rarely practiced that sort of thing.

I'm about 250 rounds into it and have had 100% reliability, except the VERY first round hung up feeding into the chamber. I think I rode the slide on that one. That's mostly RN and WWB FP, with just a handful of Gold Dots. For carry, I'm tempted to go with a GD in the chamber and FPs in the mag. Leaving a gun in the car at my workplace is illegal, so even if I wanted to, constant carry isn't really an option.

It's still a bit big and heavy for a .380 but can work for front-pocket carry, although the base of the mag is potentially visible, so a cover shirt is still needed. I made a pocket holster out of duct-tape "leather" just to try it out.

I still need to get an IWB holster. I'm considering 11 o'clock carry. I feel like a belt attachment there would be less conspicuous (particularly if the color matched the belt) and it would be more secure when unfastening the belt. Why does no one seem to advocate this? I assume I'm missing some snag in my thinking.

Concealed carry threads are always good. Different size guns, different calibers, different clothing and different size people are all factors in carrying and I always learn something.

It is funny how what one person likes, another person dislikes. There is no perfect solution for everyone. After a few years or decades of carrying, your preferences and body will change.

I carried 11 o'clock for years as a 20-something. I couldn't imagine a better way existed. I realized years later that it was the most comfortable way to carry that specific pistol for my specific body type and clothing choices at the time. Things change.

Beretta 92 compact. I actually have an IWB kydex holster for it but is that a Beretta in my pants or am I happy to see you? Anyway, I also have a shoulder holster and also a OWB paddle. It works in Michigan weather. Summers? Not so much.

I probably have one of the oddest carries around - Zastava M57 in 7.62x25 with custom grips in a DTOM leather fanny pack. I like single actions and I have put a lot of rounds through it. I've shot other handguns but I keep going back to this one. It always goes bang at the range with the ammo that I use and I seem to be be able to consistently hit the target. I have a molded OWB for it, but it is a pretty large hunk of steel to try to conceal under a baggy shirt.

Bucolic said:

Thanks Max. I had some problems with my P238 that it would occasionally not feed the Hornaday Critical Defense ammo. So I am looking for something with good expansion that feeds reliably.

I have heard good things about Speer Gold Dot, but my LGS does not carry it.

I have shot Gold Dots in 9 mm and 45 ACP with good results but have not tried them in .380. I should buy a bunch and shoot the hell out of them.

Speer Gold Dot (CCI) seems to have a lot of law enforcement contracts here and overseas. DHS which would include ICE and Border Patrol.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... on-rounds/

French National Police and someplace I read the Swedish National Police also use Gold Dot.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... al-police/

If you haven't watched the whole "Ammo Quest .380" series, this is the final wrapup. If you carry a small .380, I would recommend watching the whole series. I have also found these two Paul Harrell videos to be useful (.380 carry ammo and concealed carry methods).

Thanks!


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Nothing wrong with YACGD at all!

My G19 filled with Gold Dot 124 gn +P continues to be a good fit. The Concealment Express IWB holster and Blade-Tech nylon belt work well together. In the summer, I'm either in jeans or shorts, with either a one-size larger t-shirt or button-downt. The G19's coating isn't bothered by skin contact or perspiration and it's comfortable sitting, driving, or standing. The only problem I've had since I started carrying is trips to the post office and to AF bases.

Yup, having to disarm is another scenraio that involves compromise. I carry at work and I'm in and out of places that I must disarm - Government offices, schools, hospitals, Police stations, etc. So at work I have to think about discretely disarming.

Hence a 9mm Sig P290RS carried rear pocket in a DeSantis Super Fly. I can slide the whole holster and gun out of my back pocket and stow it in a locking hard bag that looks like a first aid kit under the front seat. Easy on - easy off.

I have also found that heavy guns are not good for purse carry. A full size or subcompact tight to the body and a wide gun belt makes a heavy gun distribute its weight. In a bag or purse it's like carrying a brick.

VooDoo