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Re: Ask a conservative

51 by Bisbee
Thank you Prof. YT, our historian in residence.

There is something that's worth keeping in mind for this discussion. The greatest divide is not right vs. left, Liberal vs. Conservative, Republican vs Democrat. It is truth vs. being correct, in the right. This division crosses political boundaries.

Anytime someone is more interested in proving themselves right, truth suffers. Sussing out the truth requires intelligence, attention, and a willingness to change their mind to fit what the facts are pointing to. Any fear or resistance to that and you can be sure that the ego will win the day for the individual.

Now the good folks here at LGC have had our share of discussions with Democrats that go 'round in circles without final agreement regarding gun control and the 2A. Hoplophiles want to feel justified in their fears (to be right) and ban dangerous tech when the truth is behavioral issues are the underlying causes for mass killings employing any number of dangerous tech from guns, knives, bombs, and even cars and trucks. However, never have I heard any such discussions settled with something called "alternative facts". That insult is Republican shorthand for "La la la la, I'm not listening to you anymore." It is the penultimate example of being right at the cost of truth.

Now It's worth considering that Mother Earth we all live on doesn't care a wit what human beings do on her. Yet if human's continue burning fossil-fuels and a runaway release of CO2 and methane moves our atmosphere closer to Venus' composition, human civilization will suffer the greatest consequences. That Conservatives refuse to consider that one issue among several because their 401K requires them not to, or (worse) intelligent Republicans accept the truth of anthropogenic climate change yet do nothing to change their party's policies, then what really is the point of a discussion? More proof that you are in the right so you can sleep better at night while the ocean waves laps at your doorstep?

So ultimately the one thing that intelligent folks require as the basis of any discussion is Integrity. Say what you mean. But to do that you have to have a good command of the facts along with the intelligence to manage them. If you can't even explain why Conservatives like George Will has already abandoned the Republican Party as hopeless yet you still call yourself a Trump supporting Conservative who wants to have a serious dialogue with Liberals, then forgive us for chuckling. You are clearly in way over your head(s).
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ask a conservative

52 by Bisbee
BTW Bardo, ever heard of the one:
If you aren't liberal when you are young, you have no heart. But if you aren't conservative when you are old, you have no brain!
It's a joke that speaks to an underlying truth of human nature. Youth affords you the luxury of trying out lots of new things and hold high ideals. With age and experience we also acquire possessions and pains. Pain alone is enough to cause humans to withdraw.

So trust us when we say there are things you may not know yet in the world, that your elders are actually trying to protect you from harm by holding society back from the brink.

Conservativism is not a mental illness. It is an integral part of any society.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ask a conservative

55 by Bardo
Had you read the article thats actually the first thing

"-Difficulty learning something new: Committing new information to memory can take longer."
Brain-scan technology reveals aging can cause the brain to shrink. Nerve tracts in the brain shrivel, making the cerebrospinal fluid cavities larger and even leaving gaping holes in the brain. Shriveling occurs in the neuron terminal branches that form the contact points among neurons.

Re: Ask a conservative

56 by AndyH
Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:52 pm Had you read the article thats actually the first thing

"-Difficulty learning something new: Committing new information to memory can take longer."
Brain-scan technology reveals aging can cause the brain to shrink. Nerve tracts in the brain shrivel, making the cerebrospinal fluid cavities larger and even leaving gaping holes in the brain. Shriveling occurs in the neuron terminal branches that form the contact points among neurons.
It's not the same thing as the natural survival process of sticking with things known to work. If you think you're even remotely correct, how do you explain young conservatives? Too much time in a football helmet?

Extreme tactics are no more acceptable if one says they're liberal than they're not for folks that think themselves to be conservative.

Re: Ask a conservative

57 by Bardo
What appears to happen in regards to conservatism and age is a sort of Dunning–Kruger effect. As the mind declines the level of narcissism rises proportionally.

A great example of this the $15hr min wage. To the affected it seems overtly high but only insofar as what they have generally earned, not as based on inflationary standard comparisons.

Re: Ask a conservative

58 by Bisbee
That's a funny one Bardo. Let's have a good laugh together 30 years from now... when I'm good and crusty and your hair starts thinning.

But have you ever considered the difference between processing power and hard drive capacity. Given the choice, I'm pretty certain that most folks would choose a huge hardrive filled with movies and music and a processor barely capable to play them all versus a liquid-cooled processor with just RAM holding one song.

That's analogous for the human condition as we age and acquire experience employing the facts for the human brain as you described.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ask a conservative

60 by YankeeTarheel
Bisbee wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:38 pm Thank you Prof. YT, our historian in residence.

There is something that's worth keeping in mind for this discussion. The greatest divide is not right vs. left, Liberal vs. Conservative, Republican vs Democrat. It is truth vs. being correct, in the right. This division crosses political boundaries.

Anytime someone is more interested in proving themselves right, truth suffers. Sussing out the truth requires intelligence, attention, and a willingness to change their mind to fit what the facts are pointing to. Any fear or resistance to that and you can be sure that the ego will win the day for the individual.

Now the good folks here at LGC have had our share of discussions with Democrats that go 'round in circles without final agreement regarding gun control and the 2A. Hoplophiles want to feel justified in their fears (to be right) and ban dangerous tech when the truth is behavioral issues are the underlying causes for mass killings employing any number of dangerous tech from guns, knives, bombs, and even cars and trucks. However, never have I heard any such discussions settled with something called "alternative facts". That insult is Republican shorthand for "La la la la, I'm not listening to you anymore." It is the penultimate example of being right at the cost of truth.

Now It's worth considering that Mother Earth we all live on doesn't care a wit what human beings do on her. Yet if human's continue burning fossil-fuels and a runaway release of CO2 and methane moves our atmosphere closer to Venus' composition, human civilization will suffer the greatest consequences. That Conservatives refuse to consider that one issue among several because their 401K requires them not to, or (worse) intelligent Republicans accept the truth of anthropogenic climate change yet do nothing to change their party's policies, then what really is the point of a discussion? More proof that you are in the right so you can sleep better at night while the ocean waves laps at your doorstep?

So ultimately the one thing that intelligent folks require as the basis of any discussion is Integrity. Say what you mean. But to do that you have to have a good command of the facts along with the intelligence to manage them. If you can't even explain why Conservatives like George Will has already abandoned the Republican Party as hopeless yet you still call yourself a Trump supporting Conservative who wants to have a serious dialogue with Liberals, then forgive us for chuckling. You are clearly in way over your head(s).
Thanks Bisbee...but my own skepticism makes me think anyone refers to me as "professor" they may be mocking me--when I was a child there was no doubt. But as I read the rest of your post I figured you weren't.

I think what you're saying buttresses what I said and adds to it. There are no "alternative facts". There are facts and there are falsehoods. It is possible, even likely to have an incomplete set of facts, and even to reach erroneous conclusions because of it, but there are no "alternative facts"--they are merely falsehoods. "The truth isn't the truth!" was what Rudy Giuliani said and THAT is the essence of Trumpism and his defenders. Yes, that is why true Conservatives have left and will continue to leave the party as it becomes more and more ReTrumplican.

Yes, as we age our brains deteriorate, as does the rest of us. Some, memory goes, others, it's reasoning. Still others, it's more speech and hearing centers. Listen to Jimmy Carter, or John Paul Stevens, in their 90's and their speech is a bit slurred and slower than it was, and their tongues seem thicker. But their perceptions and analysis? Still razor sharp.

I think the adage about liberal in youth and conservative in old age is really a description that experience teaches you that there are unintended and unexpected consequences and so you should move far more carefully and circumspectly because YOUR vision of what can happen is far, far wider than what you had in your youth.

My parents were Progressives till the day they died. Neither was stupid nor brainless and they were "conservative" in many ways, but not in politics.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Ask a conservative

61 by Bisbee
Hear, hear! Plus, it should be noted that there's a wide array of beauty between new Hollywood starlets, Juliette Binoche, to Meryl Streep. They are all beautiful in my book. It ain't ever either or.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ask a conservative

62 by HuckleberryFun
Being middle of the road isn’t being reasonable or mature, it’s being wishy-washy. It’s easy to set yourself up as a Very Serious Person (as Paul Krugman likes to call David Brooks) by putting yourself between two groups of what you view as squabbling children and donning the mask of maturity. This is a posture and a pose like any other, the difference being that you get run over by both sides rather than just by one. This is at the heart of my argument against the “why can’t we all get along and compromise and work out our differences” and the “let’s not be divisive” people. You are not being mature,
you are being run over. Passivity, or even passive-aggressiveness, will not win the day.
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Re: Ask a conservative

63 by koolaidblue
Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:46 pm Speaking with actual science, your brain actually deteriorates.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.medica ... amp/319185
You can look at any situation from multiple angles.

For example,

It could also be a natural part of maturation. The more life experience and wisdom you gain, your opinions begin to change and evolve based on that experience. Some people make those observations sooner than others.

Re: Ask a conservative

64 by koolaidblue
HuckleberryFun wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:09 am Being middle of the road isn’t being reasonable or mature, it’s being wishy-washy. It’s easy to set yourself up as a Very Serious Person (as Paul Krugman likes to call David Brooks) by putting yourself between two groups of what you view as squabbling children and donning the mask of maturity. This is a posture and a pose like any other, the difference being that you get run over by both sides rather than just by one. This is at the heart of my argument against the “why can’t we all get along and compromise and work out our differences” and the “let’s not be divisive” people. You are not being mature,
you are being run over. Passivity, or even passive-aggressiveness, will not win the day.
So your clearly stating your position as a rigid ideologue.

In your opinion does the end justify the means?

Re: Ask a conservative

65 by HuckleberryFun
koolaidblue wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:59 am
HuckleberryFun wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:09 am Being middle of the road isn’t being reasonable or mature, it’s being wishy-washy. It’s easy to set yourself up as a Very Serious Person (as Paul Krugman likes to call David Brooks) by putting yourself between two groups of what you view as squabbling children and donning the mask of maturity. This is a posture and a pose like any other, the difference being that you get run over by both sides rather than just by one. This is at the heart of my argument against the “why can’t we all get along and compromise and work out our differences” and the “let’s not be divisive” people. You are not being mature,
you are being run over. Passivity, or even passive-aggressiveness, will not win the day.
So your clearly stating your position as a rigid ideologue.

In your opinion does the end justify the means?
I’m not a rigid ideologue, far from it. I don’t fit into anybody’s little ideological box, as the longtime members on here can attest. Ends justifying means is case dependent, so the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Would I jump in my time machine and go back and kill Hitler in his crib? I dunno, but I’d consider it.
Your labeling of me as a “rigid ideologue” is meant to disarm me and blunt my efforts to resist what you’re doing here.
Not buying it.
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Re: Ask a conservative

66 by YankeeTarheel
koolaidblue wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:55 am You can look at any situation from multiple angles.

For example,

It could also be a natural part of maturation. The more life experience and wisdom you gain, your opinions begin to change and evolve based on that experience. Some people make those observations sooner than others.
Yes, but has been said before, facts are stubborn things, frequently inconvenient.
And, when you look at a situation from multiple perspectives, that doesn't allow you to engage in reductionism, or employ "alternate facts".
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Ask a conservative

67 by koolaidblue
YankeeTarheel wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:04 am
koolaidblue wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:55 am You can look at any situation from multiple angles.

For example,

It could also be a natural part of maturation. The more life experience and wisdom you gain, your opinions begin to change and evolve based on that experience. Some people make those observations sooner than others.
Yes, but has been said before, facts are stubborn things, frequently inconvenient.
And, when you look at a situation from multiple perspectives, that doesn't allow you to engage in reductionism, or employ "alternate facts".
Again, that's your opinion.

I can say the facts are simple, as you age and mature you gain wisdom. You have more life experience to learn from to make better decisions. And if you think contrary to that then you are using alternate facts to confirm your prexisting bias.

See how that works?

Re: Ask a conservative

68 by YankeeTarheel
koolaidblue wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:06 am
YankeeTarheel wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:04 am
koolaidblue wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:55 am You can look at any situation from multiple angles.

For example,

It could also be a natural part of maturation. The more life experience and wisdom you gain, your opinions begin to change and evolve based on that experience. Some people make those observations sooner than others.
Yes, but has been said before, facts are stubborn things, frequently inconvenient.
And, when you look at a situation from multiple perspectives, that doesn't allow you to engage in reductionism, or employ "alternate facts".
Again, that's your opinion.

I can say the facts are simple, as you age and mature you gain wisdom. You have more life experience to learn from to make better decisions. And if you think contrary to that then you are using alternate facts to confirm your prexisting bias.

See how that works?
No, it's not an opinion. It's how logic and close reasoning works. You have to be humble enough to allow inconvenient facts to alter or even destroy your interpretations.
You either have all the facts, or you don't. Your conclusions may WELL be logical and still wrong because your fact set is incomplete. "Alternative facts" are lies and just an excuse to engage in reductionism.

Opinions don't mean squat in the face of facts and logic. And you find out just how much your "opinion" is worth when facts smack you in the face.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Ask a conservative

70 by Eris
HuckleberryFun wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:15 am Would I jump in my time machine and go back and kill Hitler in his crib? I dunno, but I’d consider it.
Baby kiiler!

How come no one ever want's to go back in time and give Hitler's mother some birth control pills?
:sarcasm:
109+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed

Re: Ask a conservative

71 by YankeeTarheel
Eris wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:57 am
HuckleberryFun wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:15 am Would I jump in my time machine and go back and kill Hitler in his crib? I dunno, but I’d consider it.
Baby kiiler!

How come no one ever want's to go back in time and give Hitler's mother some birth control pills?
:sarcasm:
Or convince the Vienna Art School to admit the would-be painter?
(he was denied admission twice, and for contradictory reasons)

OTOH, Hitler didn't form the NSDAP nor did he originate its ideas. He joined it and rose through the ranks. So it might WELL have all happened under someone else, like Goering.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Ask a conservative

74 by YankeeTarheel
Bardo wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:04 am Conservatism can been seen as a political autism spectrum. They like routine, the familiar, they have tantrums, over-react or react emotionally and compulsively, have a high degree of compartmentalization, lack empathy, etc
I'd like to differ between that endangered species, 1) the TRUE Conservative, who believes that change should only happen when completely necessary, otherwise avoided,
and
2) The current crop of racist, misogynist, anti-intellectual, fundamentalist-jingoist radical reactionaries who've STOLEN the mantle of "Conservative" and call themselves "Conservatives" but are nothing of the sort.

I would totally agree that 2) is a serious anti-human mental illness, because what sets us apart from other life is our ability to use evidence, logic and reason to reach conclusions. Even the most primitive indigenous person may have fantastical myths and legends, but when dealing their environment, they read the signs of nature with the eye of a scientist--experience, evidence, conclusions, without which, they starve or die. The 2)s are evidence of what happens when one ignores facts and logical reasoning.

The 1) type of Conservative I may disagree with on interpretation of facts, but not the facts themselves. That's HONEST disagreement.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Ask a conservative

75 by koolaidblue
Bardo wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:04 am Conservatism can been seen as a political autism spectrum. They like routine, the familiar, they have tantrums, over-react or react emotionally and compulsively, have a high degree of compartmentalization, lack empathy, etc
Wow I'm sorry to say but I feel you're quite misguided. I'm sorry that something happened in your life to give you such a skewed and cynical perception of conservatives.

I don't at all feel thats how I view the world nor how my contemporaries do.
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