Well, first off, I would like to preface this post by clearly stating this is in no way trolling and I mean this as sincerely and honestly as possible. I'm not a troll.

But yes I am a conservative. Actually to be more specific I have strong constitutional conservative beliefs with libertarian influence.

I wanted to be honest and tell you guys who I am. I'm not trying to be misleading or a fraud. If you look at my post history so far (hopefully) you will realize I haven't been disrespectful, troll-like, or inflamatory.

So by "coming out" as a conservative and being truthful, I realize there is a strong likelihood that someone is going to ban me and lock this thread. Of that is your prerogative then so be it. But I mean no ill will.


So, have at it. This thread can be whatever you guys want it to be. It can be light hearted, fun, competitive banter, you can tell at me, you can show tolerance to a Conservative, you can ask me light or meaningful questions and I'll do my best to answer them.


I sincerely believe the country is becoming too fractured and divisive. I do worry about the country's future course and where we will be in 10years from now.

We're all gun owners here. We have that in common. We have that as a mutual interest we would all like to keep and preserve.

I'm just taking the time and making an effort to build a bridge and hopefully everyone will have a better understanding of the other side.

Well... Have at it.

We have a number of conservatives and right-wing libertarians here. We've also spent a lot of time working to build bridges. At the end of the day, each bridge project died. Why did they die? One word: Facts. Yes, we're a divided country. Propaganda and personal belief continues to widen that division. If you really want to build a bridge, please agree that facts are good.

Why did baby jesus make earth flat and all the other planets round?

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:59 pm We have a number of conservatives and right-wing libertarians here. We've also spent a lot of time working to build bridges. At the end of the day, each bridge project died. Why did they die? One word: Facts. Yes, we're a divided country. Propaganda and personal belief continues to widen that division. If you really want to build a bridge, please agree that facts are good.

Sure I'll play along facts are good.

But as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Anyone can find anything they want on the internet to support whatever position it is that they take.

I'm intellectually curious and I try to avoid confirmation bias. I'm not afraid to be challenged or to critically think or reconsider.

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:08 pm Why did baby jesus make earth flat and all the other planets round?

I don't know

Ask this guy

http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/20084/t ... rocket-man

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:10 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:59 pm We have a number of conservatives and right-wing libertarians here. We've also spent a lot of time working to build bridges. At the end of the day, each bridge project died. Why did they die? One word: Facts. Yes, we're a divided country. Propaganda and personal belief continues to widen that division. If you really want to build a bridge, please agree that facts are good.

Sure I'll play along facts are good.

Thanks. That's a start.

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:10 pmBut as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Anyone can find anything they want on the internet to support whatever position it is that they take.

And instantly we're off the rails. (kidding) Facts here are real facts. They're not lies (damned or regular) and they're not statistics.

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:10 pm I'm intellectually curious and I try to avoid confirmation bias. I'm not afraid to be challenged or to critically think or reconsider.

If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

How come people died in a public assault on a pizzaria conservatives said was a democrat pedophile ring but we dont ever talk about this guy?

Second, why is this guy allowed to keep his life let alone not be in prison?

If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

No. That's ridiculous. The media puts those labels on people and the ignorant are stupid enough to believe it and think that they need to be in one of those two categories. Some lefties are communists but most are not as some gun owners are racist right wingers and most are not.

willjr75 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:23 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

No. That's ridiculous. The media puts those labels on people and the ignorant are stupid enough to believe it and think that they need to be in one of those two categories. Some lefties are communists but most are not as some gun owners are racist right wingers and most are not.

I fixed the quote. I cannot agree with your suggestion that what I posted is a media label. I've learned those generalizations from members of arfcom, ammoland, and other right-wing pro-gun areas. I call them items of faith because they're even more prevalent in comments than in the bodies of articles. With the rest I'll agree - the reality is that people's beliefs are a continuum of grey rather than black/white.

But I didn't ask you.

You didn't ask me but I gave my opinion anyway since this is an open forum and not a private message. Why the hostility?

No

I think democrats (just like republicans) come in different flavors. They are not homogeneous groups.

A blue collar Democrat is probably quite different from a classical liberal and compared to a modern progressive.

My neighbor is a retired DEMOCRAT politician. He loves America, is a really good guy and I like him a lot. He also has NRA endorsements.

willjr75 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:36 pm You didn't ask me but I gave my opinion anyway since this is an open forum and not a private message. Why the hostility?

You didn't receive any hostility but you gave it. Relax.

Believe me I've also learned many republicans are also sneakily anti gun.

When NY enacted their NY safe act unconstitutional law, the state republican representatives had enough numbers to block it. They didn't. Many voted in favor of it.

Underatanding, at least intuitively, that time is linear and the physical world we live in is always in a state of change, why would you associate yourself with what is by definition a fundementally losing notion such as conservatism? Given this realization do you see how conservatism itself is generally a mental disorder or shortcoming not a choerent, rational political stance?

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm
If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm No

I think democrats (just like republicans) come in different flavors. They are not homogeneous groups.

A blue collar Democrat is probably quite different from a classical liberal and compared to a modern progressive.

My neighbor is a retired DEMOCRAT politician. He loves America, is a really good guy and I like him a lot. He also has NRA endorsements.

Aside from quote tags, our first problem is that you think that the Democratic party is liberal or progressive. That's a common misconception, and it's one that's echoed in right-wing pro-gun echo chambers. Another is your choice to use the 'Democrat' label rather than the name of the Democratic party. The 'Democrat' politician label is pejorative coined by right-wingers to slur their enemies.

What would you say if I told you that in the 2016 election that President Trump was the leftist and that Secretary Clinton was the more conservative choice?

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm
If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm No

I think democrats (just like republicans) come in different flavors. They are not homogeneous groups.

A blue collar Democrat is probably quite different from a classical liberal and compared to a modern progressive.

My neighbor is a retired DEMOCRAT politician. He loves America, is a really good guy and I like him a lot. He also has NRA endorsements.

Aside from quote tags, our first problem is that you think that the Democratic party is liberal or progressive. That's a common misconception, and it's one that's echoed in right-wing pro-gun echo chambers. Another is your choice to use the 'Democrat' label rather than the name of the Democratic party. The 'Democrat' politician label is pejorative coined by right-wingers to slur their enemies.

What would you say if I told you that in the 2016 election that President Trump was the leftist and that Secretary Clinton was the more conservative choice?

On some issues you would be correct. Hillary is definitely more hawkish / neo con

The single biggest divide was Hillary is a big government globalist while trump is a nationalist. That's why he received so much support from blue collar democrats.

OK, here's a question: what's you're stance on LGBT rights? For my part I am a liberal gun owner precisely because I want *all* of my rights and not just some of them. The Democrats offer to protect some rights and take away others. The Republicans do they same, but they generally reverse the lists of what to protect and what to take away.

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm
If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm No

I think democrats (just like republicans) come in different flavors. They are not homogeneous groups.

A blue collar Democrat is probably quite different from a classical liberal and compared to a modern progressive.

My neighbor is a retired DEMOCRAT politician. He loves America, is a really good guy and I like him a lot. He also has NRA endorsements.

Aside from quote tags, our first problem is that you think that the Democratic party is liberal or progressive. That's a common misconception, and it's one that's echoed in right-wing pro-gun echo chambers. Another is your choice to use the 'Democrat' label rather than the name of the Democratic party. The 'Democrat' politician label is pejorative coined by right-wingers to slur their enemies.

What would you say if I told you that in the 2016 election that President Trump was the leftist and that Secretary Clinton was the more conservative choice?

On some issues you would be correct. Hillary is definitely more hawkish / neo con

The single biggest divide was Hillary is a big government globalist while trump is a nationalist. That's why he received so much support from blue collar democrats.

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm Underatanding, at least intuitively, that time is linear and all things change why would you associate yourself with what is by definition a fundementally losing notion such as conservatism? Given this realization do you see how conservatism itself is a mental disorder not a choerent, rational political stance?

Calling conservatism a mental disorder is not helpful or even correct. It is natural for humans to want to avoid change, because fear of change is built in to our pysches. It is only through reason that we come to accept change as good.

Eris wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:55 pm

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm Underatanding, at least intuitively, that time is linear and all things change why would you associate yourself with what is by definition a fundementally losing notion such as conservatism? Given this realization do you see how conservatism itself is a mental disorder not a choerent, rational political stance?

Calling conservatism a mental disorder is not helpful or even correct. It is natural for humans to want to avoid change, because fear of change is built in to our pysches. It is only through reason that we come to accept change as good.

In other words an irrational, emotion based, psychological shortcoming.....better known as a mental disorder

Rationally, policy should be argued on merit not on 'its different so nay'

Eris wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:54 pm OK, here's a question: what's you're stance on LGBT rights? For my part I am a liberal gun owner precisely because I want *all* of my rights and not just some of them. The Democrats offer to protect some rights and take away others. The Republicans do they same, but they generally reverse the lists of what to protect and what to take away.

Could care less one way or the other. What consenting adults do is their own business and it's not my place to judge others. Everyone should be treated with dignity.

I honestly think many younger conservatives are more open to gay rights than you would expect.

You live your life how you want, let me live my life how I want

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:57 pm

Eris wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:55 pm

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm Underatanding, at least intuitively, that time is linear and all things change why would you associate yourself with what is by definition a fundementally losing notion such as conservatism? Given this realization do you see how conservatism itself is a mental disorder not a choerent, rational political stance?

Calling conservatism a mental disorder is not helpful or even correct. It is natural for humans to want to avoid change, because fear of change is built in to our pysches. It is only through reason that we come to accept change as good.

In other words an irrational, emotion based, psychological shortcoming.....better known as a mental disorder

That's your opinion. The exact same can be said in reverse by others. Its a matter of perspective.

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:57 pm

Eris wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:55 pm

Bardo wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm Underatanding, at least intuitively, that time is linear and all things change why would you associate yourself with what is by definition a fundementally losing notion such as conservatism? Given this realization do you see how conservatism itself is a mental disorder not a choerent, rational political stance?

Calling conservatism a mental disorder is not helpful or even correct. It is natural for humans to want to avoid change, because fear of change is built in to our pysches. It is only through reason that we come to accept change as good.

In other words an irrational, emotion based, psychological shortcoming.....better known as a mental disorder

That's your opinion. The exact same can be said in reverse by others. Its a matter of perspective.

Only if policy is argued 'its old so nay' which virtually no one does even if it seems that way to you.

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:52 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm

AndyH wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm
If so, then let's start here. Do you agree with the basic right-wing gun owner item of faith that Democrats are lefties or that Democrats are communists?

koolaidblue wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm No

I think democrats (just like republicans) come in different flavors. They are not homogeneous groups.

A blue collar Democrat is probably quite different from a classical liberal and compared to a modern progressive.

My neighbor is a retired DEMOCRAT politician. He loves America, is a really good guy and I like him a lot. He also has NRA endorsements.

Aside from quote tags, our first problem is that you think that the Democratic party is liberal or progressive. That's a common misconception, and it's one that's echoed in right-wing pro-gun echo chambers. Another is your choice to use the 'Democrat' label rather than the name of the Democratic party. The 'Democrat' politician label is pejorative coined by right-wingers to slur their enemies.

What would you say if I told you that in the 2016 election that President Trump was the leftist and that Secretary Clinton was the more conservative choice?

On some issues you would be correct. Hillary is definitely more hawkish / neo con

The single biggest divide was Hillary is a big government globalist while trump is a nationalist. That's why he received so much support from blue collar democrats.

I appreciate your answer. I disagree with your assessment that President Trump received so much support from blue-collar Democrats because he's a nationalist (but maybe some of the votes from Caucasian blue-collar folk was), but we can save that for later.

The folks that run this project work from the totality of what a politician does, not what they say in rallies.


https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016

So - the first problem with the beliefs of pro-gun Republican/Libertarian folk is their insistence that Democratic = liberal or leftist. Today's Democratic party is neither, just as today's Republican party is not the one that existed in the 1960s and early 1970s when they were actually 'conservatives' (as in the root: conservation).

What do you think?