senorgrand wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 1:22 pm I'm not sure we need 100% compliance, just better than the maybe 50% compliance we have now.

Very much this.

The problem with the sentiment is that 51% compliance is better than 50. So is 54%. So is 60. Even 99% doesn't stop school shootings.

In this instance, how do we know the guns weren't locked up? Maybe dad didn't know the kid found the combination in the sock drawer. So we need to not only get 100% of guns locked up, we need the parents to 'never' mess up their security process so the kids can't get keys or combinations. To really do the job, safes aren't enough - and we already know that we'll never get all the guns into safes.

Root cause.

Root cause is great but that doesn't mean we have to abandon a certain expectation as a society.

Social scorn alone can be powerful. Sure we won't get all guns locked up safely but there is no harm in, as a society, expecting people do with some sort of social judgment.

I'm ok being a little judgy about it and expecting people do better.

http://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/f ... -statement

SANTA FE, Texas - The family of the suspected gunman who opened fire at Santa Fe High School, killing 10 and wounding 13 others, released a statement.

17-year-old Dimitrious Pagourtzis confessed to the shooting, authorities said. His family said they are "saddened and dismayed by yesterday’s events at Santa Fe High School."

The rest of their statement is below:

"We extend our most heartfelt prayers and condolences to all of the victims. We also wish to thank all the first responders from all over Texas that assisted in rendering aid and support.

We are as shocked and confused as anyone else by these eventsthat occurred. We are gratified by the public comments made by other Santa Fe High School students that show Dimitri as we know him: a smart, quiet, sweet boy. While we remain mostly in the dark about the specifics of yesterday’s tragedy, what we have learned from media reports seems incompatible with the boy we love.

We share the public’s hunger for answers as to why this happened, and will await the outcome of the investigation before speaking about these events. We have been and will continue to cooperate with the authorities conducting the investigation, and ask for the public’s patience while it moves forward.

We ask the public to please extend privacy, both to the victims and to our own family, as all of us try process these events, and begin the healing process."

I'm thinking parents don't seem to know their children. Perhaps parenting and community involvement would prevent some of these type of incidents. Still I know too little about this event and I'm not enthusiastic about digging into it.

DougMasters wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 7:08 pm Root cause is great but that doesn't mean we have to abandon a certain expectation as a society.

Social scorn alone can be powerful. Sure we won't get all guns locked up safely but there is no harm in, as a society, expecting people do with some sort of social judgment.

I'm ok being a little judgy about it and expecting people do better.

A suggestion I saw on a different forum was basically a law that would offer immunity from civil and criminal issues if your firearms were used in a crime if you took measures to secure them -- like lock them in a safe -- and the opposite if a kid or prohibited person used your gun in a crime and the gun was not secured in some fashion. I like that approach and we basically have that sort of situation anyway -- fear of lawsuits is part of the reason (as well as building codes) why people put fences around pools. A good example how such a law would work is reckless driving laws -- you can have as fast of a car as you want, but if you do something reckless and harm someone there's a price to pay, both civil and criminal.

I don't really have a problem with being a little judgy toward people who keep firearms in a reckless fashion because when bad people get those easily misappropriated guns and do evil, they give the Antis fuel for their crusades and that hurts all gun owners by making draconian legislation likely. So being a bit judgy is totally fair, and not just fair, essential.

I would consider a carrot/stick lock-up law, especially if access to 0 % financing for one gun safe.

And the thing about secured guns, is we'll never know about that impact, whether it's 50%, 85% or 99.99%, because those guns don't usually make the 5 o'clock news.

senorgrand wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 8:23 pm I would consider a carrot/stick lock-up law, especially if access to 0 % financing for one gun safe.

As an example of a common sense gun law, WA state does not charge sales tax on gun safes.

Immunity from civili and criminal liability if your guns are locked up. No sales tax on gun safes. I like these ideas. Time to call my state rep and senator.

senorgrand wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 8:25 pm And the thing about secured guns, is we'll never know about that impact, whether it's 50%, 85% or 99.99%, because those guns don't usually make the 5 o'clock news.

This is the crux of the biscuit.

All's we need is a good marketing campaign to secure one's guns. My best is "Protect your investment."

Cynically perhaps, that statement does not reflect the ancillary benefit that no one else can get to them outside the owner.

Inside the owner it's too dark to see the safe combo dial.

CDFingers

The reaction in Santa Fe, TX is different than in Parkland, FL, people aren't blaming guns.

There was no outcry against firearms in Santa Fe after a gunman killed 10 and wounded 13 others Friday. Guns didn't come up at a prayerful vigil attended by 1,000 people that evening. On Saturday, there were no protests, and local leaders don't expect any Sunday.

But three months earlier in Parkland, Fla., the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School that left 17 dead unleashed a movement, with students and parents of the dead organizing, protesting and calling for expanded gun control laws. Their activism led to school walkouts nationwide, voter registration drives and massive demonstrations, including the March for Our Lives in Washington.

Polls show the U.S. remains deeply divided about guns, and the responses in Parkland and Santa Fe help explain why.

The Rev. Brad Drake has ministered to the Santa Fe community for seven years at Dayspring Church, an Assemblies of God congregation of about 150 people a few miles from the high school. The town of about 13,000 has 15 churches, and Drake serves on the local ministerial alliance as well as the Chamber of Commerce.

After the shooting, he worried that outside groups might show up with political agendas. He noticed a man openly carrying a handgun on his hip at the Friday vigil. But that was it, he said."We're able to look past that stuff and just take care of people," Drake said as he sat in his office. Drake, 45, is a gun owner, with a deer head mounted on his office wall. He's also a father of five who lost a member of his congregation in the shooting, student Angelique Ramirez. On Friday, he was waiting nearby as officials notified her parents and the parents of seven other victims. "You could hear it down the hallway as each family reacted," he recalled.

Like many in Santa Fe, the pastor didn't fault guns. He faulted himself, and society. Schools need help to improve security, but that won't prevent shootings, he said. Neither will prayer alone, he added.

Asked about gun control, Galveston County Judge Mark Henry said expanding laws wouldn't prevent mass shootings. "I can't speak for our entire country, but we need to pay more attention to mental health," Henry said, saying tougher gun laws won't keep firearms out of the hands of criminals because "they won't abide any."

A few yards away, Clarissa Potts and her 7-year-old daughter, Kaylee, added flowers to a growing memorial under a tree outside the school. She, too, opposes expanding gun control laws. She said parents need to get more involved with their children. "We need better communication. We need to pay more attention to mental health. I don't think it's a gun control issue. It's their constitutional right to carry guns," said Potts, 41, who does not own guns.

Up the street, a Santa Fe High junior who stopped at the Shell gas station that sells "Hunter for life" caps said she agreed. "It's not the guns; it's the people," said Dawn Pence, 17, who wore cowboy boots and a Def Leppard T-shirt. She wasn't at the school Friday, and didn't know the alleged shooter or any of the victims.

Among those drawn to Santa Fe by the shooting was Jason Rogers, a self-described moderate Democrat and community college teacher campaigning for the Legislature farther east.

Rogers, a veteran and gun owner who favors expanded background checks, said he recently joined the American Legion and was assisting with the group's raffle for a semiautomatic rifle Friday when he heard about the shooting. Instead of continuing, he came to Santa Fe to talk to people, but says he found that "they don't really want outside help."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-san ... story.html

senorgrand wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 8:25 pm And the thing about secured guns, is we'll never know about that impact, whether it's 50%, 85% or 99.99%, because those guns don't usually make the 5 o'clock news.

In my past life in uniform, it was a career killer to leave classified unsecured. We had big safes in rooms. Each safe had an open/close log pinned to the front. We had to have two people check the safe at night and initial that it was locked. The safe was in a locked room and the building had a vault door with another 2-person sign-off. We also had two people assigned to make rounds at night before locking the final vault door. And the security folks checked the log sheets.

Even in that environment with regulations, peer pressure, multiple sets of eyes, and quarterly training; documents were left on desks, safes were left unlocked at the end of the day, and processes weren't always followed.

Anyone that thinks that any sort of regulatory change to get people to buy safes or cable locks or trigger locks is going to stop school shootings is missing some really important insights about human critters.

Most parents these days only see their kids for a couple of hours a day. They send them off to schools where hormones are still in play; social media and phones are in the mix; recess, band, and shop are missing; and there's no time for them to safely unwind. The only thing missing is solitary confinement - might as well be a medium-security prison experience. Yeah, what could go wrong?

This is exactly why we promote root cause mitigation here. New laws won't fix this. Neither will giving everyone a safe.

A real rag of a newspaper posted a story about the victims' accounts of the shooting and the shooter. Pretty sociopathic descriptions if accurate. The shooter displayed more than just anger at having been bullied.
https://nypost.com/2018/05/19/texas-sch ... -the-dust/

AndyH wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 2:27 am... Anyone that thinks that any sort of regulatory change to get people to buy safes or cable locks or trigger locks is going to stop school shootings is missing some really important insights about human critters. ...

And there are still people who won't wear seatbelts but despite that, the laws have been extremely useful and saved many lives with minimal government intrusion. The risk of a ticket costing $100 or so is good enough incentive for enough people to wear them that it makes a real difference.

Pakistani businessman Abdul Aziz Sheikh says he learned of the tragedy unfolding at a high school in Texas when he turned on the TV after iftar, the fast-breaking meal during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Realizing it was the school where his 18-year-old daughter, Sabika, was an exchange student, he flipped through channels trying to learn more and left her messages, but she didn't reply.

He called his daughter's friends, but they weren't responding either. It was only when he reached the exchange program that he got the bad news: Sabika Khan was among the 10 people killed in Friday's mass shooting at Santa Fe High School, southeast of Houston.

Fighting back tears, her father told The Associated Press on Saturday in Karachi that Sabika was due home in about three weeks for the holiday marking the end of Ramadan. He says he thought she would be safe in the U.S.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/05/ ... 25326.html

Has anyone heard what type of shotgun was used? I assume if it was a semi-auto that would have been an assault shotgun.
Pump, O/U, SxS, or single?

Found it. Pump, Rem 870.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/19/texas-sch ... -dust/amp/

The parents have released a statement about the kid. They are so shocked that their wonderful sweet kid could have done this. I don't know how parents can be so oblivious, this wonderful sweet gentle little soul made pipe and pressure cooker bombs and stole their shotgun and handgun and committed mass murder. I'm a parent and both my wife and I had to work and I put in very long hours, both of our kids had problems with bullys and other problems growing up. It was truly a full time job and we had a house full of guns and no safe. As far as I'm concerned these parents aren't exactly model parents.

awshoot wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 3:43 am

AndyH wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 2:27 am... Anyone that thinks that any sort of regulatory change to get people to buy safes or cable locks or trigger locks is going to stop school shootings is missing some really important insights about human critters. ...

And there are still people who won't wear seatbelts but despite that, the laws have been extremely useful and saved many lives with minimal government intrusion. The risk of a ticket costing $100 or so is good enough incentive for enough people to wear them that it makes a real difference.

Yes, there are still plenty of people that won't wear seatbelts. The last numbers I found were from 2014 - 87% do and 13% don't, out of 214,092,472 drivers. About 27.8 million drivers don't wear 'em.

Highlights: In 2014, seat belt use rates in the United States ranged
from a low of 68.9 percent in South Dakota to a high of 97.8
percent in Oregon. Nineteen States, the District of Columbia
and the U.S. territories of Guam and Northern Mariana Islands
achieved belt use rates of 90 percent or higher. These results
are from probability-based observational surveys conducted
by 50 States, the District of Columbia, and U.S. Territories.

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Pu ... ion/812149
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformat ... 4/dl1c.cfm

I've said upthread that controlling guns in the home is a good idea. But school shootings are a very tiny segment of gun use by anyone (and at least one shooter got the guns out of the family safe...) - and because they're such a small chunk, it's going to take a 'couple of nines' worth of compliance for safes/locks to work. Thing is, the gun isn't even the root cause.

Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick shows how ignorant he is about root causes.

Violent video games. Sure Gov. Violent video games make kids stupid, not violent.

"We have devalued life in this country. We threw God out of school."

Sure Gov. If anything, stories about a vengeful, violent hairy old white man who lives in the sky is just what kids should not be hearing if we want them to be good citizens.

Abortions and broken families. Sure Gov. The divorce rate in Europe is pretty much the same as it is here but they don't have kids killing each other at the rate we do.

Irresponsible gun owners?

Too many entrances to schools. I leave readers to figure this one out.

Unarmed teachers. Sure Gov. What about all those brain dead teachers we hear about packing heat who leave their guns in desks and rest rooms?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/20/us/texas ... index.html

Demanding safes is not fair to poorer gun owners. Often folks own one gun for game and home defense. Buying a safe for a $300 shotgun makes only no sense, but is not doable for the family that struggled to afford the shotgun and a box of shells.

I personally know several families like this.

If you go into the Wabash, Indiana, police station, you'll find a box filled with free cable locks. I used to stop in and grab one whenever I'd buy a new gun.

Regards,
Josh

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 8:33 pm Demanding safes is not fair to poorer gun owners. Often folks own one gun for game and home defense. Buying a safe for a $300 shotgun makes only no sense, but is not doable for the family that struggled to afford the shotgun and a box of shells.

I personally know several families like this.

If you go into the Wabash, Indiana, police station, you'll find a box filled with free cable locks. I used to stop in and grab one whenever I'd buy a new gun.

Regards,
Josh

Gun locks are good too. I just want to do things that encourage people to keep their guns locked up when not in use, home defense weapons excluded, of course. Lets try and get people to be as safe as reasonably possible.

Eris wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 9:11 pm

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 8:33 pm Demanding safes is not fair to poorer gun owners. Often folks own one gun for game and home defense. Buying a safe for a $300 shotgun makes only no sense, but is not doable for the family that struggled to afford the shotgun and a box of shells.

I personally know several families like this.

If you go into the Wabash, Indiana, police station, you'll find a box filled with free cable locks. I used to stop in and grab one whenever I'd buy a new gun.

Regards,
Josh

Gun locks are good too. I just want to do things that encourage people to keep their guns locked up when not in use, home defense weapons excluded, of course. Lets try and get people to be as safe as reasonably possible.

Yes trigger locks, or even a lesser expensive case with a lock would do.

I wouldn't think to mandate it but strongly encourage or incentivize it.

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 8:33 pm Demanding safes is not fair to poorer gun owners. Often folks own one gun for game and home defense. Buying a safe for a $300 shotgun makes only no sense, but is not doable for the family that struggled to afford the shotgun and a box of shells.

I personally know several families like this.

If you go into the Wabash, Indiana, police station, you'll find a box filled with free cable locks. I used to stop in and grab one whenever I'd buy a new gun.

Regards,
Josh

Mandating a specific way to store equipment is not good idea, agree.

There is clearly a deep problem with a society when schoolkids are killing their classmates. This is not really about guns, it's about alienated individuals who feel that killing people is somehow cool or justified or a solution to a problem, and all that matters in the world is their own hurt feelings or their 15 minutes of infamy. Guns are just an easy way to inflict death and suffering on others. Why all the darkness among young people in the last few decades? Economic pressure on families? Lousy parenting? Disengagement from society due to video games and computers? The spread of angry, hateful ideas? The shallow materialism of our society? Alienation from society and isolation driving people crazy? In this case, there was a story about him targeting certain people he disliked and not shooting people he liked.

Texas Shooter Spared Students He Liked, Court Document Says

"The 17-year-old suspected of killing 10 people and wounding 10 after opening fire on a high-school art class told police he spared students he liked during the rampage, according to court documents released late Friday."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-shoo ... 1526735627

Teen Laid Out Texas School Shooting Plans in Journals, Officials Say

"The Texas student charged in the shooting at Santa Fe High School described planning the attack in private journals, including a plan to kill himself, posted an image on Facebook of a “Born to Kill” shirt and used his father’s shotgun and pistol in the rampage that left 10 dead and 10 wounded, authorities said Friday."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/teen-laid-te ... 48179.html

Texas shooting suspect's choice of guns complicates debate over assault rifles

"The reality that weapons not included in proposed assault-rifle bans can still exact a double-digit death toll further complicates a wrenching national debate about how to prevent future tragedies."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

He apparently was planning to kill himself too, so this was clearly a deeply unhappy individual. But he wanted others to suffer too, so I assumed he blamed them in some way for his suffering. Hopefully he will get a chance to tell his story, so we can better understand his motives. Was he bullied? Shunned?