Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 8:33 pm Demanding safes is not fair to poorer gun owners. ...

While I'm sympathetic to that argument, we don't have laws that allow poor people to drive without insurance.

Insurance is $70/mo or less.

ETA: Around here, far fewer people drive regularly or even own cars than they used to. The bicycle has become a popular mode of transportation again.

Regards,
Josh

SilasSoule wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 9:56 pm... "The reality that weapons not included in proposed assault-rifle bans can still exact a double-digit death toll further complicates a wrenching national debate about how to prevent future tragedies."...

This is why I'm interested in safe storage incentives (and punishments if unsafely stored firearms in homes where prohibited people or minors can access them). Many of these shootings involve kids easily accessing parental firearms (not all, but enough). If the kids couldn't access firearms they could use a knife, or a car, or build bombs, or whatever -- I get that too. The key though, is that those situations do not provide Antis with made-for-tv marketing materials for whatever confiscatory ban pops into their minds. I see safe storage as insurance against 2A infringements because while it would not eliminate all shootings, it has the potential to reduce some of them and thus take wind out of Antis' sails.

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 10:20 pm Insurance is $70/mo or less.

Regards,
Josh

And? A few months of insurance would buy a small rifle safe. Less than one month's would buy a safe big enough for a pistol. https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Sec ... B00UG9HB1Q

People who let their kids access their weapons as easily as getting something out of the closet are generating marketing materials for confiscatory gun laws.

1. Talking about the family shotty.
2. A few months' insurance would buy a safe, sure -- but then there would be no car insurance.

May I ask, where are you from?

Regards,
Josh

The NRA's new president, Oliver North, is blaming "a culture of violence" and prescription medication. It will be interesting to see if this kid was taking any psychotropic medications, as several of these mass shooters were.

Oliver North Blames School Shootings On Ritalin

“And the disease in this case isn’t the Second Amendment. The disease is youngsters who are steeped in a culture of violence,” he said. “They’ve been drugged in many cases. Nearly all of these perpetrators are male. ... Many of these young boys have been on Ritalin since they were in kindergarten.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ol ... 46186d22be

I have a theory including psychoactive drugs and violent video games as parental surrogates.

Ritalin etc makes it easier for some kids to learn, right? What are they being taught?

I suspect the kids are being made into Manchurian candidates. Not by the government, but by pharmaceuticals, and not purposely.

When you know the effects of these drugs and the effects of combat simulators, it seems obvious.

Regards,
Josh

I'm curious, do we know if these guns were secured? I knew how to access my parent's safe, sunk under the concrete of the foundation of the house, by the time I was 10.

Just wondering.


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DougMasters wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 9:18 pm

Eris wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 9:11 pm

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 8:33 pm Demanding safes is not fair to poorer gun owners. Often folks own one gun for game and home defense. Buying a safe for a $300 shotgun makes only no sense, but is not doable for the family that struggled to afford the shotgun and a box of shells.

I personally know several families like this.

If you go into the Wabash, Indiana, police station, you'll find a box filled with free cable locks. I used to stop in and grab one whenever I'd buy a new gun.

Regards,
Josh

Gun locks are good too. I just want to do things that encourage people to keep their guns locked up when not in use, home defense weapons excluded, of course. Lets try and get people to be as safe as reasonably possible.

Yes trigger locks, or even a lesser expensive case with a lock would do.

I wouldn't think to mandate it but strongly encourage or incentivize it.

Our local big box sports store has locking gun cabinets for like $129 or something. Still, a safe is not the only way to secure one's guns, as the gun lock fans know. There's also locking them through the trigger guards with a home made case hardened chain and lock system. Or a giant hit-cat. Many ways. The point is to mandate secured guns. Provide many options.

CDFingers

Yeah -- some guns can also easily be disabled by removing the bolt. You could fit a lot of bolts into a small $200 safe you could get at home depot.

How is it that right wing mouthpieces broadcast a "theory" on an issue and the following day hundreds of conservatives believe they came up with the same "theory" on their own? What happens in the brains of some uncritical absorbers of propaganda that makes the regurgitation of said propaganda seem novel to them?

awshoot wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 10:30 pm

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 10:20 pm Insurance is $70/mo or less.

Regards,
Josh

And? A few months of insurance would buy a small rifle safe. Less than one month's would buy a safe big enough for a pistol. https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Sec ... B00UG9HB1Q

People who let their kids access their weapons as easily as getting something out of the closet are generating marketing materials for confiscatory gun laws.

Well hell - let me just cancel my insurance for a few months to buy a safe. I'm sure the state police will understand when they pull me over.

I'm thinking we need more authoritarians to spend some time working for minimum wage for a bit.

Wabatuckian wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 10:53 pm I have a theory including psychoactive drugs and violent video games as parental surrogates.

Ritalin etc makes it easier for some kids to learn, right? What are they being taught?

I suspect the kids are being made into Manchurian candidates. Not by the government, but by pharmaceuticals, and not purposely.

When you know the effects of these drugs and the effects of combat simulators, it seems obvious.

Regards,
Josh

How many times does this right wing myth about video games have to be smashed before it dies for good?

AndyH wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 am... Well hell - let me just cancel my insurance for a few months to buy a safe. I'm sure the state police will understand when they pull me over.

I'm thinking we need more authoritarians to spend some time working for minimum wage for a bit.

Rich or poor, some things come with responsibilities. If a person can only afford the dangerous thing, whether that's a dog, a car, or a gun, but can't afford the accouterments required to protect the public at large, the person can't actually afford that dangerous thing. That isn't being authoritarian, it is being responsible.

senorgrand wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 12:20 am Yeah -- some guns can also easily be disabled by removing the bolt. You could fit a lot of bolts into a small $200 safe you could get at home depot.

I store the bolts, critical working components of rifles and handguns in a locked steel cabinet. I am shopping around for a rifle safe though.
I bet he knew the combination to his dad's safe if there was one or knew where the key was or knew how to force a lock if there was one. Most kids have time to figure these things out if they want to. Many parents, I suspect don't even think about their child being the one to keep away from the arms. It's to keep robbers out in their minds.
These parents were either totally delusional about their child or they condoned his behavior as acceptable and encouraged it.
At this point it might be easier to lock up all males between the ages of 16-26. Yeah, a bit draconian or we could start looking at the root causes and try to figure out why a 17 year old turns to killing as an acceptable solution to really insignificant social events.

awshoot wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 3:46 am

AndyH wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 am... Well hell - let me just cancel my insurance for a few months to buy a safe. I'm sure the state police will understand when they pull me over.

I'm thinking we need more authoritarians to spend some time working for minimum wage for a bit.

Rich or poor, some things come with responsibilities. If a person can only afford the dangerous thing, whether that's a dog, a car, or a gun, but can't afford the accouterments required to protect the public at large, the person can't actually afford that dangerous thing. That isn't being authoritarian, it is being responsible.

Thanks to California, most new guns come with cable locks. Trigger locks aren't the best solution, but a pack of 3 can be had on Amazon for a little over $20.

An inexpensive steel tool box with a pad lock is better than nothing. A large toolbox could easily accommodate multiple handguns, bolts, and/or a disassembled AR/Shotgun.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/URREA-Heavy ... /202796480

Or how about just forgoing anything other than NOT buying more guns until you have a secure place to store them? Seems like the easiest solution.

AndyH,

It's not right-wing so far as I know. It's been my personal theory since c.1998 when I ran a subjective experiment involving myself and one other and experienced the results.

I'm getting really tired of my views being categorized as right or left wing. I never bothered with most news until I started being accused of parroting this out that idea -- liberals accused me of parroting Limbaugh, Hannity, etc; and conservatives accused me of parroting - what's his name? O'Reilly or something? That might also be a right-wing guy; I don't recall names well and I really don't give a shit for most of these people.

Emerging studies seem to at least somewhat back the Ritalin/video game theory. We can't afford to dismiss this yet.

Regards.

http://time.com/4000220/violent-video-games/

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/ ... games.aspx

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... lf-control

Amphetamines, including ADD meds:

https://www.narconon.org/drug-abuse/amp ... ptoms.html

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/am ... gnsofabuse

The first set of articles are all citing the same study. Later, more rigorous studies showed that there was no difference. (The first study failed to do an initial survey to get baselines, only tested them during the same visit with no follow ups, etc).
https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once- ... 1823811169

As to Amphetamine abuse, that is certainly an issue where addicts who are not treated can have additional criminal behavior. Addicts are not medically supervised patients.

https://apnews.com/a9d58fdda3ba49e0b212a5bfd33c39d3

“What’s more likely is that kids with mental health conditions who engage in this type of violent behavior, it’s the underlying condition and not the treatment that leads to this behavior,” he said.

Shinzen,

Dependence is usually a side-effect of legitimate use.

Ritalin and Adderall are often abused by students because it's so easy to get. Those who are prescribed it also often abuse it.

As far as video games go, some thoughts: They have not been disproven. Disproving something tends to be difficult. There is a correlation, but correlation is not causation.

My argument isn't solely amphetamines; isn't solely video games; isn't solely bad home life; isn't solely isolation by technology, esp social media; isn't solely bullying.

Rather, it's an aggregate of all these and more. In my opinion, dismissing any of the possible factors is a helluva big mistake.

Regards,

Josh

Clarifying video games:

I see them as a violent subsection of a larger dissociative addiction surrounding electronics and the virtual world.

In other words, I'm not sure the violence of the games doesn't contribute to an already unstable mind. Kids mimic what they see and experience. That effect can be more on a mind with an already disassociative bent.

The larger problem is constant escapism through technology. Kid is bullied, and instead of dealing with it, kid withdraws into a virtual world where he is rewarded for killing.

Regards,
Josh

The subjects certainly warrant study, but they've become a deflection by some, along with those same folks decrying the "Moral decay" of traditional family values as root causes of the issue, when there are concrete things that can be done instead of blaming dems, gay marriage, et et al. for the issue.
http://theliberalgunclub.com/2018/02/15 ... -do-today/

I'm not interested in all that. I doubt the folks getting killed are partisan. The shooters mostly aren't.

Regards,
Josh

It takes an insane person to shoot an unarmed kid. Root causes address that fact more than any other, and discussions on other matters are distractions and worth less than a bucket of crab shells.

CDFingers