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Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:35 am
by Wino
Headline - "GOP fears damage to brand from Charlottesville" - we can only hope so. :rant:

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:14 am
by CDFingers
Bacchus wrote:From Highdesert's post above:
...the majority of Trump voters think that white nationalism is equally as common or more common on the left.
Can someone explain this to me? My gut tells me this is hogwash, that nazis in this country are products of the right and that the perception of Trump voters that as many or more come from the left is the result of the insane alt-right alternate facts media machinery, but honestly I have no idea of the political make-up of neo nazi scum. Or maybe I'm afraid that if it is true, I'll have to just fling myself over a cliff. :confused:
It's not likely that "T voters" and "think" should appear in the same line.

I'm not just saying that. These people get the feels about T. Feels are not a good way to make decisions in .gov. The actual facts put the lie to their notion that white nationalism is equally prominent on the left. Balderdash.
Starting in the 1960s, white nationalism grew in the US as the conservative movement developed in mainstream society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism

CDFingers

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:09 am
by Bacchus
:)

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:09 pm
by CDFingers
Image


CDFingers

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:17 pm
by TrueTexan
CDFingers wrote:
Image


CDFingers
I thought a group of Trump supporters was called an Idiocy. :cry:

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:21 pm
by AndyH
I wonder how many Americans would be locked in the throes of false equivalency and competing laws, or if their assessment of the threat would look different, if the driver of the car prayed 5 times a day, and if instead of declaring war to make 'white privilege great again' it was to create a NA Caliphate?

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:16 pm
by Inquisitor
Barcelona.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:38 am
by HuckleberryFun
How to make fun of Nazis:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opin ... nazis.html

For decades, Wunsiedel, a German town near the Czech border, has struggled with a parade of unwanted visitors. It is the birthplace of one of Adolf Hitler’s deputies, a man named Rudolf Hess. And every year, to residents’ chagrin, neo-Nazis marched to his grave site there. The town had staged counterdemonstrations to dissuade these pilgrims. In 2011 it had exhumed Hess’s body and even removed his grave stone. But undeterred, the neo-Nazis returned. So in 2014, the town tried a different tactic: humorous subversion.
The campaign, called Rechts Gegen Rechts — the Right Against the Right — turned the march into Germany’s “most involuntary walkathon.” For every meter the neo-Nazis marched, local residents and businesses pledged to donate 10 euros (then equivalent to about $12.50) to a program that helps people leave right-wing extremist groups, called EXIT Deutschland.

They turned the march into a mock sporting event. Someone stenciled onto the street “start,” a halfway mark and a finish line, as if it were a race. Colorful signs with silly slogans festooned the route. “If only the Führer knew!” read one. “Mein Mampf!” (my munch) read another that hung over a table of bananas. A sign at the end of the route thanked the marchers for their contribution to the anti-Nazi cause — €10,000 (close to $12,000). And someone showered the marchers with rainbow confetti at the finish line.
The approach has spread to several other German towns and one in Sweden (where it was billed as Nazis Against Nazis).

This week, following the violence in Charlottesville, Va., Wunsiedel has come back into the news. Experts in nonviolent protest say it could serve as a model for Americans alarmed by the resurgent white supremacist movement who are looking for an effective way to protest (and who might otherwise be tempted to meet violence with violence). Those I spoke with appreciated the sentiment of the antifa, or anti-fascist, demonstrators who showed up in Charlottesville, members of an anti-racist group with militant and anarchist roots who are willing to fight people they consider fascists. “I would want to punch a Nazi in the nose, too,” Maria Stephan, a program director at the United States Institute of Peace, told me. “But there’s a difference between a therapeutic and strategic response.”
The problem, she said, is that violence is simply bad strategy.

Violence directed at white nationalists only fuels their narrative of victimhood — of a hounded, soon-to-be-minority who can’t exercise their rights to free speech without getting pummeled. It also probably helps them recruit. And more broadly, if violence against minorities is what you find repugnant in neo-Nazi rhetoric, then “you are using the very force you’re trying to overcome,” Michael Nagler, the founder of the Peace and Conflict Studies program at the University of California, Berkeley, told me.
Most important perhaps, violence is just not as effective as nonviolence. In their 2011 book, “Why Civil Resistance Works,” Dr. Stephan and Erica Chenoweth examined how struggles are won. They found that in over 320 conflicts between 1900 and 2006, nonviolent resistance was more than twice as effective as violent resistance in achieving change. And nonviolent struggles were resolved much sooner than violent ones.
The main reason, Dr. Stephan explained to me, was that nonviolent struggles attracted more allies more quickly. Violent struggles, on the other hand, often repelled people and dragged on for years.

Their findings highlight what we probably already intuit about protest: It’s a performance not just for the people you may be protesting against but also for everyone else who may be persuaded to join your side.
Take the American civil rights movement. Part of what moved the country toward the Civil Rights Act of 1964 were the images, broadcast to the entire country, of steadfastly nonviolent protesters, including women and occasionally children, being beaten, hosed and abused by white policemen and mobs.

Those images also highlight two points emphasized by Stephanie Van Hook, the executive director of the Metta Center for Nonviolence. First, nonviolence is a discipline, and as with any discipline, you need to practice to master it. Nonviolence training was a fixture of the movement. Even the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his companions rehearsed in basements, role playing and insulting one another to prepare for what was to come.
And second, sometimes being on the receiving end of violence is the whole point. That’s how you expose the hypocrisy and rot you’re struggling against. They attack unprovoked. You don’t counterattack. You’re hurt. The world sees. Hearts change. It takes tremendous courage: Your body ends up being the canvas that bears the evidence of the violence you’re fighting against.

But ideally, of course, we’d avoid violence altogether. This is where the sort of planning on display at Wunsiedel is key. Humor is a particularly powerful tool — to avoid escalation, to highlight the absurdity of absurd positions and to deflate the puffery that, to the weak-minded at any rate, might resemble heroic purpose.

Germany is not America, of course. For one, neo-Nazis aren’t allowed to carry assault rifles through the streets there, let alone display swastikas. But we do have similar examples of humor being used to counteract fascists in the United States. In 2012, a “white power” march in Charlotte, N.C., was met with counterprotesters dressed as clowns. They held signs reading “wife power” and threw “white flour” into the air.
“The message from us is, ‘You look silly,’ ” a coordinator told the local news channel. “We’re dressed like clowns, and you’re the ones that look funny.”

By undercutting the gravitas white supremacists are trying to accrue, humorous counterprotests may blunt the events’ usefulness for recruitment. Brawling with bandanna-clad antifas may seem romantic to some disaffected young men, but being mocked by clowns? Probably not so much.
Which brings us to Charlottesville, and the nine or more alt-right rallies that have been scheduled in American cities for this weekend alone. To those wondering how to respond, Dr. Stephan says that “nonviolent movements succeed because they invite mass participation.” Humor can do that; violence less so.
The broader issue, in her view, is this: Why do oppressive regimes and movements invest so much in fomenting violence? (Think of our president and his talent for dividing the country and generating chaos.) Because violence and discord help their cause. So why would you, she asks, “do what the oppressor wants you to do?”

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:03 am
by Bisbee
I read about this before. Great post, Huck! Once again we have much to learn from Europe regarding an issue they have been dealing with for years...

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:08 am
by DispositionMatrix
http://www.guns.com/2017/08/17/virginia ... -governor/
Allegedly the Virginia State Police claimed they found none of the weapons McAuliffe said were hidden "around the city."
Virginia governor Terry McAuliffe revealed on Monday that the far right activists had hidden caches of weapons around the city. “They had battering rams and we had picked up different weapons that they had stashed around the city,” McAuliffe told civil rights campaigner DeRay Mckesson on his podcast Pod Save the People.
They also disputed his claim the state police were outgunned, which was edited out of this NYT story:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/c ... .html?_r=0
as shown here:
http://newsdiffs.org/diff/1457427/14575 ... lists.html
Governor McAuliffe also defended the police response, saying, “It’s easy to criticize, but I can tell you this, 80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons.

“You saw the militia walking down the street, you would have thought they were an army,” he added. “I was just talking to the State Police upstairs; they had better equipment than our State Police had,” he said, referring to the militia members. “And yet not a shot was fired, zero property damage.”
With a genuine tragedy working politically in McAuliffe's favor, embellishing should not have been necessary.

Police in Virginia had 1033 equipment out on the streets in Charlottesville. Still, Minnesota Democratic Representative Keith Ellison tweeted a claim the militias were "rivaling state power" with their gear.
https://twitter.com/keithellison/status ... 7766912000
Rep. Keith Ellison‏Verified account
@keithellison
Says VA Gov, 80% of Racists at Charlottesville had semi-auto assault rifles. Armed militias rivaling state power.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:48 am
by TrueTexan
Now we even have Mitt Romney condemning Trump and calling for him to condemn the Alt-Right.
Former Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney called on President Donald Trump to “acknowledge that he was wrong” and apologize for his remarks about the violent Charlottesville rally.

In a Facebook post Friday, Romney urged Trump to “state forcefully and unequivocally that racists are 100% to blame for the murder and violence in Charlottesville.” He asked the president to “definitively repudiate” the support of David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader who thanked Trump for condemning “leftist terrorists” in his remarks on the events in Virginia.

“Whether he intended to or not, what [Trump] communicated caused racists to rejoice, minorities to weep, and the vast heart of America to mourn,” Romney wrote.

Romney emphasized that Trump’s hesitation to explicitly condemn white supremacist groups could be a national security issue.

“Our allies around the world are stunned and our enemies celebrate; America’s ability to help secure a peaceful and prosperous world is diminished,” Romney wrote. “And who would want to come to the aid of a country they perceive as racist if ever the need were to arise, as it did after 9/11?”

He also argued Trump should be setting a better example for children across America.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mit ... mg00000009

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:57 am
by lurker
"the majority of Trump voters think that white nationalism is equally as common or more common on the left."
projection, i think. and denial. "they" MUST be at least as bad as "us".

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:23 pm
by highdesert
HuckleberryFun wrote: They turned the march into a mock sporting event. Someone stenciled onto the street “start,” a halfway mark and a finish line, as if it were a race. Colorful signs with silly slogans festooned the route. “If only the Führer knew!” read one. “Mein Mampf!” (my munch) read another that hung over a table of bananas. A sign at the end of the route thanked the marchers for their contribution to the anti-Nazi cause — €10,000 (close to $12,000). And someone showered the marchers with rainbow confetti at the finish line. The approach has spread to several other German towns and one in Sweden (where it was billed as Nazis Against Nazis).
That's a great idea from a country that has a lot of experience with Nazis.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:29 pm
by 321FLSurfer
highdesert wrote:
HuckleberryFun wrote: They turned the march into a mock sporting event. Someone stenciled onto the street “start,” a halfway mark and a finish line, as if it were a race. Colorful signs with silly slogans festooned the route. “If only the Führer knew!” read one. “Mein Mampf!” (my munch) read another that hung over a table of bananas. A sign at the end of the route thanked the marchers for their contribution to the anti-Nazi cause — €10,000 (close to $12,000). And someone showered the marchers with rainbow confetti at the finish line. The approach has spread to several other German towns and one in Sweden (where it was billed as Nazis Against Nazis).
That's a great idea from a country that has a lot of experience with Nazis.
Agreed! We can also participate in their chants with "white flour" "tight showers" "wife power"...gleefully stolen from a song by Dave LaMotte about clowns counter protesting a Klan rally.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:34 pm
by shinzen
Love it. Mock them relentlessly.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:44 pm
by joemac
curtism1234 wrote:
featureless wrote:
curtism1234 wrote:While not in any way presidential, I think Donald Trump is actually correct (it pains me to say that) in stating both sides are anarchists and asking where does this stop.
Sure, it takes two to tango. But only one group of those anarchists promote genocide. And they must be denounced. If the president is incapable, the people will (and did). Free speech is free speech until it crosses the line of death threats (genocide). Fuck trump and fuck Nazis and fuck any who support white supremacists and all that they stand for. You do not evoke with a swastika unless you are prepared to feel the consequences of that action.

(not meaning to attack you here, just extremely agitated and this is a personal line for me beyond which there are consequences when encountered)
Agreed

Well said. I stand right there on that line with you to back you up.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 am
by joemac
AndyH wrote:
curtism1234 wrote:
AndyH wrote:
What's the purpose of being a citizen? What are our duties and responsibilities to our society, to each other, and to our country? When a CCL holder comes to the aid of a police officer being beaten by a criminal, is that citizen a vigilante? When a citizen stands up to thug attacking someone they don't know are they a vigilante? Or are they an active, caring, citizen? If an enemy lands on our beaches intending to overthrow our society, do we take arms and fight back, or do we grab our smart phone and try to call our representative? How about if someone's breaking into our house?
God I hate to keep quoting Donald Trump...We are a nation of laws.

Citizens have to obey the laws on the books even when we don't agree with them; that is the only thing that keeps this train rolling down the tracks. As I said in my original statement, you can legally fight to get them legally changed. If you feel that is not an option, then I guess you got to do what you got to do.

If you lose, just don't expect a memorial :hmmm: :smart: :smart: :smart:
Cool words and stuff, but can you please explain to me how 'we are a nation of laws' answers my questions? So: If someone breaks into my house to kill my son, I can or can't shoot him/her without being a vigilante because nation of laws? If some idiot terrorist runs a car down the street into a crowd we have to stand quietly and watch because there might be a law against taking action? No. Just no.

If nothing else, it's called necessity or competing harms. There's also the duty to protect and defend the Constitution of the US from all enemies, foreign and domestic, though not all are bound by that, I guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competing_harms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_(criminal_law)
In the criminal law of many nations, necessity may be either a possible justification or an exculpation for breaking the law. Defendants seeking to rely on this defense argue that they should not be held liable for their actions as a crime because their conduct was necessary to prevent some greater harm and when that conduct is not excused under some other more specific provision of law such as self defense.
I'm not an attorney and didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, so do your own due diligence before deciding to meet insurrection with another round of drinks. ;)
Samuel Adams wrote:The liberties of our Country, the freedom of our civil constitution are worth defending at all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have receiv'd them as a fair Inheritance from our worthy Ancestors: They purchas'd them for us with toil and danger and expence of treasure and blood; and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle; or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men. Of the latter we are in most danger at present: Let us therefore be aware of it. Let us contemplate our forefathers and posterity; and resolve to maintain the rights bequeath'd to us from the former, for the sake of the latter. — Instead of sitting down satisfied with the efforts we have already made, which is the wish of our enemies, the necessity of the times, more than ever, calls for our utmost circumspection, deliberation, fortitude, and perseverance. Let us remember that "if we suffer tamely a lawless attack upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our doom." It is a very serious consideration, which should deeply impress our minds, that millions yet unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event.

Essay, written under the pseudonym "Candidus," in The Boston Gazette (14 October 1771), later published in The Life and Public Services of Samuel Adams (1865) by William Vincent Wells, p. 425
Yes, and also this - a trans-woman showed tremendous courage and leaned-in instead of turning away. She drew her handgun and chased after the coward that drove into the crowd: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ottesville

That is courage and an example for all Americans.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:37 am
by CDFingers
shinzen wrote:Love it. Mock them relentlessly.
This, to the max. Every single T voter should be so embarrassed about what they did that they donate to their local mosque. Shame is a powerful emotion when they know they did a shitty thoughtless thing.

CDFingers

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:33 pm
by highdesert
From a column by Doyle McManus.
Much of the punditry clucked last week over which prominent Republicans dared to criticize Trump by name, and which (including Senate leader Mitch McConnell and House Speaker Paul D. Ryan) did not.

Far more significant was the less-noticed fact that almost no Republicans spoke out in defense of their party’s president. Fox News Channel’s Bret Baier said his producers spent a full day searching for a GOP senator who would stand up for Trump. There weren’t any.

“They are running away from him,” the GOP advisor said. “They are going to try to create some distance. They don’t want Trump to become their brand.”

But that’s hard to do. Most American voters consider the president the chief spokesman for his party. Trump, angry and erratic, is redefining the image of the GOP, whether other Republicans like it or not.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:35 am
by AndyH
It's a good piece worth the read.

http://auburnseminary.org/what-i-saw-in ... ttesville/
As I wrote last week, I accepted an invitation from the Charlottesville clergy to come to their city the weekend of the Unite the Right rally, to join them in witness against white supremacy, Neo-naziism, racism, and associated evils, which are counter to both the Christian gospel and American democracy.Free speech is a protected right and we were not protesting against the rally’s right to speak; rather, we were using our right to free speech to bear witness for a better message of conciliation and peace, and we were supporting the clergy of Charlottesville to stand against the incursion of white supremacists like Richard Spencer.

Here are some initial reflections based on my experience – on the white supremacists and their message, on the clergy and faith community, on the other anti-racism protestors, on the police, and on next steps.
On the White Supremacists, Neo-nazis, and their allies: First, I was impressed by their organization. They showed up in organized caravans of rented white vans, pick-up trucks, and other vehicles, and then quickly lined up with flags and started marching. I don’t know what app they were using, but it worked. (After the state of emergency was declared, the organization seemed less effective, with more confusion and milling around.) Second, they were young. The majority, it seemed to me, were in their twenties and thirties, mostly men, but a few women. I was told by one protestor that many of the older leaders were retired military.
This is a link to a short video clip of a statement by the HS history teacher of the kid that killed Heather Heyer and injured 19 others.
http://cin.ci/2uDJs5a
Ex-teacher of James Alex Fields Jr. says student had neo-Nazi beliefs
"My first instinct is I failed."

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:43 am
by Bisbee
Good article.

But the good pastor did not understand the dynamics of hatred. Christians did not "fail" to instill Love in their young. They just have nothing to say about what to do in the face of fear. It makes no sense to say "love thy neighbor" when the body and mind are amped on fear and anger like a drug to addicts.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:57 am
by AndyH
https://twitter.com/ChuckModi1/status/8 ... 89/video/1
Fight broke out. Nazis beat black kid w/sticks at end. I kick one in back 2 help & he runs after me. Kid is safe but bloody #Charlottesville
Video of the attack on Deandre Harris in the parking garage next to the police station.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:27 am
by Feralhuman
Here is a first hand account from some pastors who showed up to counter protest the racist rally.
The racsists had a first amendment right to rally, and they even had a permit to be there. So what these people did was form a wall in front of the rally spot and dare the racists to try to fight their way through, perfect. They must have figured it was somehow not a horrible idea to dare a bunch of violent nazis to fight them, brilliant. And since they had made it very public that this was their plan, the racists showed up ready for the fight they had been promised.
Although, the racists probably figured the way this would go down was that the cops would keep the racists separated from the counter protesters so that they would not split each others heads open, both sides would scream at each other and throw stuff (shields), racists would declare victory and leave.
Racists had a good plan this time. But now they know that people are actually going to put hands on them and the cops are going to encourage it. Next time they will be better prepared for a lot more violence, which is what they want anyway. Perfect. Good job.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ville.html

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:49 pm
by AndyH
Feral - thanks for posting that. While I don't agree with your assessment of the situation, I appreciate that you thought this excellent piece was worthy of posting. On that, we agree.

Re: Charlottesville

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:33 am
by ErikO
My relatives had a nasty habit of executing fascist puppets of Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidkun_Quisling