The Liberal Gun Club Forum

AndyH wrote:
The government is the people. The people don't have to wait for the representatives they hired and pay to act if it's clear they have no intention of doing what's right.

Frankly, for the folks that wonder how we got here today with the resurgence of the KKK and with white nationalists marching in the streets carrying citronella tiki torches it's from thinking like the above. No, dammit - it's not up to 'someone else' to fix this. The damn statues shouldn't be 'relocated' - they should be melted down and turned into something that helps us move forward rather than continually reminding the folks that are trying to make ends meet exactly why they're still stuck in a system that should have been dead and buried 100 years ago.

curtism1234 wrote:

AndyH wrote:
The government is the people. The people don't have to wait for the representatives they hired and pay to act if it's clear they have no intention of doing what's right.

Frankly, for the folks that wonder how we got here today with the resurgence of the KKK and with white nationalists marching in the streets carrying citronella tiki torches it's from thinking like the above. No, dammit - it's not up to 'someone else' to fix this. The damn statues shouldn't be 'relocated' - they should be melted down and turned into something that helps us move forward rather than continually reminding the folks that are trying to make ends meet exactly why they're still stuck in a system that should have been dead and buried 100 years ago.

That right there just proves my point that, indeed, both sides can be wrong.

One side are neo-nazi / kkk and the other side is vigilantism

That doesn't make anyone right; there are only degrees of wrong.

Its not about the guns. Its about the Nazis. Saying its about ANYTHING else, is saying that its not about the Nazis. That is unacceptable. That is whataboutism salted with political opportunism.

shinzen wrote:No. One side is Nazis. Our very recent family members went to war against Nazis. If the Nazis went away today, Antifa wouldn't exist. If Antifa goes away today, the Nazis will still exist. There's a difference. A big one.

AndyH wrote:

highdesert wrote:

AndyH wrote:It might be therapeutic to load 30 round mags while watching this.
https://youtu.be/RIrcB1sAN8I

Very interesting. I think this mini-documentary could have been better with a different reporter.

Maybe. This one had the blonde hair and blue eyes that would be most acceptable to the subjects, tho. </only superficially sarcastic>

AndyH wrote:

highdesert wrote:A lot of officials involved in this event: Charlottesville, UVA, county, Commonwealth and a US District judge. A few articles are asking the question if there was enough preparation and if the policing could have been better. Portland kept the groups separated, they didn't have the confrontations.

If I remember correctly, the terrorist driver had to travel a number of blocks from the park in order to find the counter-protesters after they withdrew. That the attack was pre-planned is supported by the organizer's info from Discord.

I wonder about the police presence, though. On one hand, 'we're' calling for fewer militarized police when BLM and others protest, so I'm not sure we should suggest more when the Nazi's protest. There were already indications that the police were protecting the KKK from the counter-protesters. Hard for anyone to win with optics like that.

321FLSurfer wrote:

shinzen wrote:No. One side is Nazis. Our very recent family members went to war against Nazis. If the Nazis went away today, Antifa wouldn't exist. If Antifa goes away today, the Nazis will still exist. There's a difference. A big one.

THIS RIGHT HERE

We can infer what stands behind a person’s public statements if we’ve seen them enough, under different pressures and in different contexts. Trump’s repeated expressions of sympathy for racist activists, refusals to denounce racist activists, coddling and appointments of racist activists can only really mean one thing: that he instinctively sympathizes with them and indeed is one. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 80 million times, I need to seriously consider what the fuck is wrong with me.

I confess I had a small degree of surprise that the events of the weekend – as horrifying and tragic as they are – have had quite the effect on people they seem to have had. This is not to diminish them. It is only to say that I do not think they should be so surprising. I don’t think they should amount to a revelation that shifts our basic understanding of things. We have if not a growing white supremacist movement in the US at least an increasingly vocal and emboldened one. They both made Trump possible and have in turn been energized and emboldened by his success. He reacts this way because he is one of them. He is driven by the same view of the world, the same animus and grievances. What we’ve seen over the last five days is sickening and awful. The house is on fire. But it was on fire a week ago. It’s been on fire since November. The truth is indeed unimaginable and terrifying. But we need to accept the full truth of it if we are going to be able to save our country.

Donald Trump’s connections to the business community are disappearing after the president failed to clearly denounce white supremacists following the protests in Charlottesville. A string of CEOs have disavowed associations with the president this week, forcing Trump to disband several groups of business advisers to the White House.

On Tuesday, Trump tweeted that for every CEO leaving his Manufacturing Council he had plenty to take their place. A day later, he changed his mind. On Wednesday, Trump announced on Twitter that he was ending both the Manufacturing Council and his Strategic and Policy Forum.

AndyH wrote:
What's the purpose of being a citizen? What are our duties and responsibilities to our society, to each other, and to our country? When a CCL holder comes to the aid of a police officer being beaten by a criminal, is that citizen a vigilante? When a citizen stands up to thug attacking someone they don't know are they a vigilante? Or are they an active, caring, citizen? If an enemy lands on our beaches intending to overthrow our society, do we take arms and fight back, or do we grab our smart phone and try to call our representative? How about if someone's breaking into our house?

curtism1234 wrote:

AndyH wrote:
What's the purpose of being a citizen? What are our duties and responsibilities to our society, to each other, and to our country? When a CCL holder comes to the aid of a police officer being beaten by a criminal, is that citizen a vigilante? When a citizen stands up to thug attacking someone they don't know are they a vigilante? Or are they an active, caring, citizen? If an enemy lands on our beaches intending to overthrow our society, do we take arms and fight back, or do we grab our smart phone and try to call our representative? How about if someone's breaking into our house?

God I hate to keep quoting Donald Trump...We are a nation of laws.

Citizens have to obey the laws on the books even when we don't agree with them; that is the only thing that keeps this train rolling down the tracks. As I said in my original statement, you can legally fight to get them legally changed. If you feel that is not an option, then I guess you got to do what you got to do.

If you lose, just don't expect a memorial

The success of the proslavery guerrillas inspired Brown, with four of his sons and two other accomplices, to murder five reputedly proslavery settlers who lived along Pottawottamie Creek. Justifying his action as obedience to the will of a just God...

highdesert wrote:I'd even question a park and statue named after John Brown. Brown was a religious zealot and he and his sons murdered pro-slavery settlers in Kansas.

The success of the proslavery guerrillas inspired Brown, with four of his sons and two other accomplices, to murder five reputedly proslavery settlers who lived along Pottawottamie Creek. Justifying his action as obedience to the will of a just God...

http://www.history.com/topics/john-brown

The US Capitol is full of statues of Confederate figures.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ck-people/

curtism1234 wrote:

AndyH wrote:
What's the purpose of being a citizen? What are our duties and responsibilities to our society, to each other, and to our country? When a CCL holder comes to the aid of a police officer being beaten by a criminal, is that citizen a vigilante? When a citizen stands up to thug attacking someone they don't know are they a vigilante? Or are they an active, caring, citizen? If an enemy lands on our beaches intending to overthrow our society, do we take arms and fight back, or do we grab our smart phone and try to call our representative? How about if someone's breaking into our house?

God I hate to keep quoting Donald Trump...We are a nation of laws.

Citizens have to obey the laws on the books even when we don't agree with them; that is the only thing that keeps this train rolling down the tracks. As I said in my original statement, you can legally fight to get them legally changed. If you feel that is not an option, then I guess you got to do what you got to do.

If you lose, just don't expect a memorial

321FLSurfer wrote:

curtism1234 wrote:When you destroy monuments like that, it's no different than destroying a monument from any other US war

Just like all those statues in Germany celebrating the loss of the Third Reich to the Allies... oh wait, that's totally not a thing.

CDFingers wrote:

321FLSurfer wrote:

curtism1234 wrote:When you destroy monuments like that, it's no different than destroying a monument from any other US war

Just like all those statues in Germany celebrating the loss of the Third Reich to the Allies... oh wait, that's totally not a thing.

Note how the Germans can celebrate the war dead without celebrating Nazism.

To my mind, statues of Confederate Generals and so on are statues of traitors.

CDFingers

curtism1234 wrote:

AndyH wrote:
What's the purpose of being a citizen? What are our duties and responsibilities to our society, to each other, and to our country? When a CCL holder comes to the aid of a police officer being beaten by a criminal, is that citizen a vigilante? When a citizen stands up to thug attacking someone they don't know are they a vigilante? Or are they an active, caring, citizen? If an enemy lands on our beaches intending to overthrow our society, do we take arms and fight back, or do we grab our smart phone and try to call our representative? How about if someone's breaking into our house?

God I hate to keep quoting Donald Trump...We are a nation of laws.

Citizens have to obey the laws on the books even when we don't agree with them; that is the only thing that keeps this train rolling down the tracks. As I said in my original statement, you can legally fight to get them legally changed. If you feel that is not an option, then I guess you got to do what you got to do.

If you lose, just don't expect a memorial

In the criminal law of many nations, necessity may be either a possible justification or an exculpation for breaking the law. Defendants seeking to rely on this defense argue that they should not be held liable for their actions as a crime because their conduct was necessary to prevent some greater harm and when that conduct is not excused under some other more specific provision of law such as self defense.

Samuel Adams wrote:The liberties of our Country, the freedom of our civil constitution are worth defending at all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have receiv'd them as a fair Inheritance from our worthy Ancestors: They purchas'd them for us with toil and danger and expence of treasure and blood; and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle; or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men. Of the latter we are in most danger at present: Let us therefore be aware of it. Let us contemplate our forefathers and posterity; and resolve to maintain the rights bequeath'd to us from the former, for the sake of the latter. — Instead of sitting down satisfied with the efforts we have already made, which is the wish of our enemies, the necessity of the times, more than ever, calls for our utmost circumspection, deliberation, fortitude, and perseverance. Let us remember that "if we suffer tamely a lawless attack upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our doom." It is a very serious consideration, which should deeply impress our minds, that millions yet unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event.

Essay, written under the pseudonym "Candidus," in The Boston Gazette (14 October 1771), later published in The Life and Public Services of Samuel Adams (1865) by William Vincent Wells, p. 425

Americans are angry about last weekend’s white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, disappointed by President Donald Trump’s response to it, and largely unsure whether he opposes white nationalism, a HuffPost/YouGov survey shows. But the poll also paints a more complicated picture of the nation’s racial views. A significant minority say they view white people as facing serious discrimination. And a quarter admit that they have some sympathy for the political views of those who filled the streets of Charlottesville for the “Unite The Right” rally, attended by protesters including Ku Klux Klan members and neo-Nazis.

Views across several questions are divided by race in the poll ― which was taken after Trump’s comments Monday but almost entirely before his press conference Tuesday, in which he defended his response to the violent rally. White Americans are more likely than black Americans to perceive whites as facing discrimination and less likely to consider white nationalism a serious threat. White Americans also seem somewhat more likely to be satisfied with Trump’s response to the events of last weekend.

But those differences are eclipsed by the gap between Americans who backed Trump in last year’s presidential election and those who supported his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton. Two days after the events in Charlottesville, Trump spoke Monday to condemn the instigators of violence by name. “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans,” he said. The next day, Trump soft-pedaled that denunciation, assigning blame to “both sides,” and arguing that the group of white nationalist rally-goers included “some very fine people.”

Just 22 percent think that Trump is personally opposed to white nationalism, according to the poll. Thirty-one percent believe he personally supports white nationalism and another 24 percent that he doesn’t have a strong opinion about the ideology, with the remaining 24 percent unsure. Three in 10 Americans say the president did enough to condemn the violence in Charlottesville, with 48 percent saying he did not. Only a quarter believe he was right to wait two days before first condemning the KKK, neo-Nazis and other white supremacists by name, while 48 percent say he should have acted earlier. Six percent don’t think he should have issued condemnations of those groups at all.

Just over 60 percent of those surveyed say they’ve followed news about the rally at least somewhat closely. Most are outraged: 61 percent, including a majority of both Clinton and Trump voters, say they’re angry about the rally and just 18 percent that they are not. By comparison, in a 2014 survey, just 28 percent reported feeling anger about the death of black teenager Michael Brown, who was fatally shot by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri.

Sixty-three percent of those who responded to the new HuffPost/YouGov survey describe the incident in which a man plowed his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one woman and injuring 19 others, as a terrorist act. (The suspected driver, James Alex Fields Jr., 20, of Ohio, has been charged with offenses including second-degree murder and malicious wounding.) But although half say that the political positions of the white nationalists who attended the rally were mostly wrong, 21 percent say those marchers “went too far, but they have a point.” Four percent believe the white nationalists were mostly right in their positions.

A majority of respondents, 57 percent, believe that white nationalism poses at least a somewhat serious threat to the nation, although just under a third consider it to be very serious. And the nation overwhelmingly believes that the threat is not limited to Charlottesville: 68 percent say the violence that occurred represents a broader problem in American society, with just 17 percent calling it an isolated incident. But another question suggests that some grievances are bubbling up. Forty percent of those surveyed say that white people face a lot of discrimination in the U.S. today, up from 24 percent in November. (In the earlier poll, unlike the more recent one, white people were listed among a battery of other demographics, which may explain some of the discrepancy.) Views are deeply politicized, with Clinton voters nearly six times likelier than Trump voters to view white nationalism as a very serious threat.

Another question also points to a significant mismatch in political intensity. Sixty-five percent of Democratic voters and independents who lean toward the Democrats say it’s very important to them that their party condemn the violence in Charlottesville, while 39 percent of Republicans and GOP-leaners say the same. While two-thirds of Clinton voters believe that white nationalism is more common among the right-wing than the left, the majority of Trump voters think that white nationalism is equally as common or more common on the left.

lurker wrote:i fear the battle lines are being drawn now as we speak. at some point there will be no backing away, america will doom itself no matter who "wins", and tyrants everywhere will smile and say "we told you so".

The nation’s top military officers issued public statements condemning racial bigotry and extremism, a rare foray into domestic politics that indicated deep unease Wednesday in the Pentagon with President Trump's views on race and underscored his growing isolation. The social media posts from the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff — the commanders of the Navy, Marine Corps, Army and Air Force — came amid a torrent of criticism of Trump as business executives abandoned his advisory councils, Republican elected officials distanced themselves from him and previously friendly foreign leaders criticized his comments suggesting an equivalence between neo-Nazi groups and their opponents.

In a further sign of an administration in crisis, Vice President Mike Pence announced he was cutting short a visit to South America to return to Washington a day early for meetings with Trump. But it was the statements from the country’s top uniformed military leaders that broke most dramatically with precedent. Each used his official Twitter account to denounce the far-right protesters behind Saturday's deadly violence in Charlottesville, Va. — and not those who had confronted them. They did not mention their commander in chief by name. But three of the four posts appeared after Trump sparked a bipartisan furor Tuesday by repeatedly blaming "both sides" for the clashes that followed a march by neo-Nazis, white supremacists and their allies, ending with the death of a counter-protester.

“The Army doesn't tolerate racism, extremism, or hatred in our ranks,” Gen. Mark Milley, chief of staff of the Army, tweeted Wednesday. “It's against our Values and everything we've stood for since 1775.”

Marine Commandant Gen. Robert B. Neller tweeted Tuesday that there is "no place for racial hatred or extremism in the Marine Corps."

Adm. John Richardson, the Chief of Naval Operations, started the trend on Saturday when he posted a statement on Twitter and Facebook that called the events in Charlottesville "shameful" and "unacceptable."

"The Navy will forever stand against intolerance and hatred" he said. "We want our Navy to be the safest possible place — a team as strong and tough as we can be, saving violence only for our enemies."

Gen. David L. Goldfein, chief of staff of the Air Force, tweeted Wednesday that he stood “together with my fellow service chiefs in saying that we’re always stronger together.”

Separately, the military moved to disavow some of the white nationalists who were photographed wearing military-affiliated clothing during the clashes. The 82nd Airborne Division, whose paratroopers jumped into Europe to defeat the Nazis in World War II, took to Twitter on Monday to disavow a man photographed giving a Ku Klux Klan salute while wearing a hat with the division's insignia. "Respectfully, anyone who thinks this man represents our culture and values has never worn the maroon beret... and never will," the 82nd Airborne tweeted.

...the majority of Trump voters think that white nationalism is equally as common or more common on the left.