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http://blackamericaweb.com/2016/04/08/b ... by-police/

“She wasn’t a bad person,” Ella Sweatt said. “She didn’t weigh but 94 pounds.”

The police report said Laronda Sweatt was shot twice.

“I want to know why he did her like that,” Ella Sweatt said. “He didn’t have to.”

She did have an axe, right? They can't understand why an officer would shoot someone with an axe? Sure if she's out back chopping firewood and they snuck up on her and shot her, I'd agree. Otherwise, she had an axe and came after the officer.

Knife, gun, sword, axe, ... it's probably not going to end well for you.

Looks like the Sumner County Sheriff's Department had tried to evict Sweatt, and allegedly she attacked a deputy. Then the Gallatin PD responded at which point an officer shot her.

I understand more than the average person how difficult it is to do police work. It is one of the few jobs in civil society where knowing the appropriate use of force is necessary. On top of that, police are the one's who respond to the worst of human tragedies.

Yet standing on the sidelines as a firearms owner burdened with the heavy responsibility that entails, I honestly feel Americans men are becoming more and more pussy-fied with this over-reliance on guns as a source of power in our culture.

You see, if a woman was coming at me wielding an axe, knife, or sword, my training requires me to stand firm and respond to what she does. She may yell, raise her arms in threat, but we all instinctively know the difference between bluster and action. My martial arts training which teaches courage in the heart for engagements before any technique in the body is released shows that every engagement is won first in the heart before action is taken (this is the same with our target practice: the feeling that the target is hit before the trigger is pulled). But pulling a firearm and aiming it at a center of mass eliminates all other forms of perception of the other person except as a target.

Most police officers Europe and Asia also have martial arts training. By the sheer amount of unarmed shootings by police under justification of fearing for one's life, I suspect there is far more reliance on use of firearms than there is for appropriate use of other force available to the average man with training.

Now watch the video again. At no time does the woman raise her axe to attack yet energetically kept going forward out of rage and lack of self-restraint. The Officer, on the other hand, immediately loses control of the engagement the moment he started backed up. It appears he actually fired his weapon when he backed into the second squad car and had nowhere else to escape. In most traditional cultures, this killing would be an ultimate act of cowardice after losing the battle. Here in the States, this killing is somehow "justified".

I can guarantee you that this officer is feeling like shit now and not sleeping well at nights for a long time to come. Because in the end we are all energetic animals and as all men we all sense where the balance of powers lay.

Need riot shields, and a lot of cops.

Bisbee wrote:Now watch the video again. At no time does the woman raise her axe to attack yet energetically kept going forward out of rage and lack of self-restraint. The Officer, on the other hand, immediately loses control of the engagement the moment he started backed up. It appears he actually fired his weapon when he backed into the second squad car and had nowhere else to escape. In most traditional cultures, this killing would be an ultimate act of cowardice after losing the battle. Here in the States, this killing is somehow "justified".

I can guarantee you that this officer is feeling like shit now and not sleeping well at nights for a long time to come. Because in the end we are all energetic animals and as all men we all sense where the balance of powers lay.

Truly tragic for all involved.

As far as I can tell, his hands come apart when he bumps into the vehicle, after firing his weapon twice. It's hard to tell if the ax came up involuntarily after she was shot, or if he shot in response to the ax coming up. From the body camera footage the off hand seems to grasp the ax handle just as she's shot. The squad car footage shows the ax coming up as well.

He gave ground and allowed her opportunities to stop. If only we had a better way of ensuring everybody had access to suitable housing no matter what then a huge stressor would be removed from society.

Bisbee wrote:You see, if a woman was coming at me wielding an axe, knife, or sword, my training requires me to stand firm and respond to what she does. She may yell, raise her arms in threat, but we all instinctively know the difference between bluster and action.

Well, either she didn't or she wanted to be shot.

Just how close would you let an armed and aggressive person get to you? She was only a few feet away when he fired, maybe just out of striking distance with that axe. Do you let her get into axe range? Into grappling range? Just hope that your hand0to-hand training is enough to keep you alive?

In most traditional cultures, this killing would be an ultimate act of cowardice after losing the battle. Here in the States, this killing is somehow "justified".

Not sure what you are saying here. If this were actually a battle he would have stood his ground and shot the woman much earlier. But it wasn't a battle. He wasn't there to take or hold territory, he was there to try and stop this woman from hurting or killing someone.

PiratePenguin wrote:

Bisbee wrote:You see, if a woman was coming at me wielding an axe, knife, or sword, my training requires me to stand firm and respond to what she does. She may yell, raise her arms in threat, but we all instinctively know the difference between bluster and action.

Well, either she didn't or she wanted to be shot.

Just how close would you let an armed and aggressive person get to you?

21 feet is the established rule here in the US, even you're trained in ninja woo-woo.

Bisbee wrote:I understand more than the average person how difficult it is to do police work. It is one of the few jobs in civil society where knowing the appropriate use of force is necessary. On top of that, police are the one's who respond to the worst of human tragedies.

Yet standing on the sidelines as a firearms owner burdened with the heavy responsibility that entails, I honestly feel Americans men are becoming more and more pussy-fied with this over-reliance on guns as a source of power in our culture.

You see, if a woman was coming at me wielding an axe, knife, or sword, my training requires me to stand firm and respond to what she does. She may yell, raise her arms in threat, but we all instinctively know the difference between bluster and action. My martial arts training which teaches courage in the heart for engagements before any technique in the body is released shows that every engagement is won first in the heart before action is taken (this is the same with our target practice: the feeling that the target is hit before the trigger is pulled). But pulling a firearm and aiming it at a center of mass eliminates all other forms of perception of the other person except as a target.

Most police officers Europe and Asia also have martial arts training. By the sheer amount of unarmed shootings by police under justification of fearing for one's life, I suspect there is far more reliance on use of firearms than there is for appropriate use of other force available to the average man with training.

Now watch the video again. At no time does the woman raise her axe to attack yet energetically kept going forward out of rage and lack of self-restraint. The Officer, on the other hand, immediately loses control of the engagement the moment he started backed up. It appears he actually fired his weapon when he backed into the second squad car and had nowhere else to escape. In most traditional cultures, this killing would be an ultimate act of cowardice after losing the battle. Here in the States, this killing is somehow "justified".

I can guarantee you that this officer is feeling like shit now and not sleeping well at nights for a long time to come. Because in the end we are all energetic animals and as all men we all sense where the balance of powers lay.

I agree that it's a tragic incident that would not make any decent person feel good about himself.

As for the rest, I disagree, especially about the cowardice stuff. This is not battle, the cop was retreating because he was actively trying to avoid shooting the woman. When he couldn't move back further he had to shoot.

It looks like a suicide by cop to me. Nobody in her right mind charges a cop with a deadly weapon in hand.

How many of you are teachers or parents? Think back to your days of taking care of or raising a child who is angry or rebelling against you or your authority. All of us have felt threatened by that challenge before. Some of us can go back further into our own past recall the days when we ourselves were lashing out due to rage or fear.

This woman was being evicted by The Law and was obviously fearing the threat of becoming destitute, possibly the straw that broke the camel's back after a long period of economic stress. Is this the kind of person you would give a 21' rule and expect anyone in her position to follow? This condition is legally defined as "temporary insanity" and I myself know it through personal experience.

Putting myself in her position, I can imagine being easily enraged by such fear; generating thoughts both homicidal and suicidal. I would want the world to Fuck Off and leave me alone. With a Sherrif's deputy at my door telling me I had days or hours to leave the property, fight-or-flight chemicals cascading through my system would make me rush forward in rage even as my mind begs for the suffering to stop: Kill me now or stop me from wanting to kill.

Yeah, that is pretty much suicide by cop. But how different is that from how a raging a child feels? Pretty similar I suspect.

The police officer by definition plays the role of a parent in this situation. The only adult in the room. Those with training to deal with domestic disturbances learn that there is only one authority in the room and you have to quickly occupy that position: be the adult in the room. When I mentioned martial arts training, it merely refers to learned techniques that the officer can use to disarm or subdue an assailant. It ain't magic. Those with greater skill learn to due so without breaking bones or permanently disfiguring an attacker. But all the techniques in the world won't work if you don't ground and center yourself first and energetically take control of the situation before any physical engagement.

It is the same thing as a teacher or parent being confident or skillful enough to take control of the room with a screaming child or an unruly student disrupting the lclassroom. The analogy is apt. So long as you know that the screaming child or student is one you are charged to protect, you don't think of hurting them further by disfiguring them or allowing them to injure you. You need to know how to manage the situation and break that cycle of fear and rage in one who is out of control.

There certainly are cases where use of deadly force is necessary to protect oneself and police officers see that more than most people in society. I am, after all, a firm believer of putting the oxygen mask on myself first before assisting others (when they drop down from a depressurizing cabin). But I humbly suggest this was not a situation where anyone's life was being threatened nor one that justified use of deadly force. In this day and age when we see so much "I feared for my life" police shootings of unarmed civilians, that the concept of an Officer of the Peace taking a chance to stand up to protect lives and serve the community seems quaint, almost B&W film cute. Yet I believe it actually takes tremendous courage to stand in the face of fear of personal injury and do the right thing, especially if it is ostensibly your job to do so.

We, as a society, are not being taught nor practicing how to be courageous enough to do the right thing. Which is sad because the economy will only create more stress, more loss of homes, more anger, rage, and fear in the poor. And the police will be facing more and more outrage over unarmed (and minimally armed) shootings of desperate people for the same reasons.

After all, who wrecked the economy? Those "successful" captains of industry who are models for our culture, fearful people who can never feel they have enough and must take more from those unable to defend themselves. That subterranean cycle of fear and rage that Hunter S. Thompson had a field day capturing and describing in the 70's is playing itself out now in an end game -a death spiral. How many are willing to do what's necessary to stop it?

It's easy to be compassionate when the guy in front of you is not carrying an axe. This wasn't a child throwing a temper tantrum while holding her toy. It was a regrettable incident, but the video is clear enough that I'm not second guessing the cop.

Sure, some aspects of our society are reprehensible, but I'm not taking it out on the police, not in this case.

Here are things to ponder:
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15312200/dome ... s-for-cops

https://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues ... es-deadly/

http://wwlp.com/2016/03/02/domestic-vio ... re-danger/

Bisbee wrote:How many of you are teachers or parents? Think back to your days of taking care of or raising a child who is angry or rebelling against you or your authority.

If I grapple an angry child, it would take a freak accident for me to not wind up back home safe with my family that night.

If I grapple an angry adult woman with an axe, the chances of me winding up in the hospital or the morgue are a lot higher.

And frankly, we have higher expectations of adults than we do of children.

PiratePenguin wrote:

Bisbee wrote:How many of you are teachers or parents? Think back to your days of taking care of or raising a child who is angry or rebelling against you or your authority.

And frankly, we have higher expectations of adults than we do of children.

Meh, I don't. So I rarely feel disappointed with shitty neighbors or out in "polite society."
If anything, I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised by adults who can actually follow the Golden Rule.

My training Officer 25 years ago in a major urban area would have beat me to a pulp. All of the members of my watch would have harassed me until I quit. The issue is not rules of engagement or fear or who is an adult in the situation. This is about COMPETENCE. The officer went all the way to the end over a 90 lb woman with an attitude. I am glad I no longer serve in this capacity. For the past several years I have seen a similar lack of thought, bravery or just plain common sense. Next thing you know they will justifying shootings over a concealed bottle (he could have broken it and made an improvised knife!! )

My head hurts

My heart aches

My Butt is chapped

Yes, looks like the officer never had control of the situation...it can happen...a woman advancing on him with a weapon in her hand.
Someone distraught, upset not in a 'right frame of mind'.
I'm sure opinions run a wide path....

What would you have done? Police training or otherwise?

This is something that we may someday have to face as folks with firearms...are you prepared for this?
It wouldn't matter to me axe, knife or gun...it's a weapon in hand and here they come....you get 5 seconds to make a choice.

At what weight does an enraged person with an axe become dangerous? Easy to criticize when sitting in your house reading about it. Not so easy when looking at it.

The cop is not paid to engage in a fair fight. If you ever fight fair in real life, your tactics suck. The cop is not interested in a trial by arms. It's a legal situation, not a test of courage. The cop is interested in going home with his/her body intact, and is required to deal with the problem. Cop probably didn't want to evict her in the first place.

An axe is a dangerous weapon even in the hands of a little old lady, and talking about facing one bare handed to prove your warrior spirit is a path to dripping your blood on the ground. Maybe losing a few body parts.

The cop probably does feel like shit. For the most part, cops are good people and don't enjoy hurting people. I watched a bunch of cops after a suicide by cop. Woman came out from behind a dumpster holding an umbrella like a gun. Dark, poor lighting. Very somber group of cops.

dougb wrote:At what weight does an enraged person with an axe become dangerous? Easy to criticize when sitting in your house reading about it. Not so easy when looking at it.

The cop is not paid to engage in a fair fight. If you ever fight fair in real life, your tactics suck. The cop is not interested in a trial by arms. It's a legal situation, not a test of courage. The cop is interested in going home with his/her body intact, and is required to deal with the problem. Cop probably didn't want to evict her in the first place.

An axe is a dangerous weapon even in the hands of a little old lady, and talking about facing one bare handed to prove your warrior spirit is a path to dripping your blood on the ground. Maybe losing a few body parts.

The cop probably does feel like shit. For the most part, cops are good people and don't enjoy hurting people. I watched a bunch of cops after a suicide by cop. Woman came out from behind a dumpster holding an umbrella like a gun. Dark, poor lighting. Very somber group of cops.

To be clear, she was being evicted by the Sumner County Sheriff's Department. She allegedly attacked a deputy prior to being gunned down by the Gallatin PD officer shown responding in the video.

Very disappointing to hear folks here talk about cowardice, yet again. Suicide by cop if I've ever seen one. Not posturing or a threat display. Generally, armed women can be more dangerous than men - they don't fuck around. If you can't tell the difference you should educate yourself or not carry a weapon. Consider learning how to run, fast. Unfortunately, not an option for police.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/threatdisplay.htm

With all this talk about facing a (90lbs) assailant with a weapon... I have to remind everyone what courage actually is:



There is always the potential for disaster when you put yourself on the line. But being human requires us to muster our courage to stand against insanity... tell the axe wielding woman, or tank driver, they will not move beyond where we stand. If they do continue forward, you act accordingly. But first you MUST stand your ground to give them an opportunity to recognize who is in charge! That is the only strategy to win in a situation like this and in any conflict we face.

The officer in this case plainly failed to do that.

Everything I've written describes what I hope I (and others) would do in a similar situation to control the situation rather than this senseless killing. To me the key for controlling any conflict is courage. This is not merely armchair speculation. Weekly engagements in (ritualized) conflict with an opponent in martial arts training allows me to experience conflict in real life and not merely speculate what I would do if challenged.

Competency in policing which Rickoshay speaks of requires that the officer knows when to draw and when to keep it in the holster. Pulling a gun (and backing up) hoping the attacker would be intimidated to stand down is always a losing strategy.

It is one thing to recognize heroism, it's another to require it. Cops aren't paid to be heroes, although many go above and beyond their call.

I personally hold LEOs to a pretty high standard and wish that they actually were held to that standard more often.

But even for me this seems like a completely reasonable use of force.

Bisbee wrote:Weekly engagements in (ritualized) conflict with an opponent in martial arts training allows me to experience conflict in real life and not merely speculate what I would do if challenged.

And here is where your logic fails utterly.

The ritual (your expression, not mine) by its very nature follows a liturgy, narrowing the range of opponents' responses. In other words, you're all playing by the rules. Your dojo or whatever your school calls it is a controlled environment. Further, you have elected to face any given opponent. Your risk of serious injury is no higher than any other contact sport and probably lower than many, and your risk of death is almost nil. You're fighting for standing and maybe a different colored belt.

Don't even compare that to policing the streets. The environment is different, the participants are different, and only one side of an encounter has any rules of engagement to follow. And the other guy is unpredictable and probably playing for keeps.

Seriously. ^^

Anyone who thinks they're preparing for real violence by point sparring in protective gear needs to read what Rory Miller or Marc MacYoung have to say, for example. I have some personal experience with "real" violence, was involved in martial arts for almost two decades and used to teach TKD, but that doesn't qualify me as an expert on anything. But it does give me a point of reference.

I read this book last year and recommend it. It effectively debunks many "martial artist" myths (armed and otherwise):

Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3396 ... n-violence

Tough call. I could not see whether the officer was wearing his baton. That would have been an appropriate weapon because he's trained. Still, tough call on a likely suicide by cop.

This is a really good discussion. Bisbee wrote:

Because in the end we are all energetic animals and as all men we all sense where the balance of powers lay.

I'm leaning in this direction.

When I was a kid and I wrestled my younger brother, I never used my full strength. That notion carried over into all my play, caring more about the play than the win, somehow.

Tough call, and I can't identify: I've never been in a situation where I was either scared or angry while I was holding a loaded gun.

CDFingers

CDFingers wrote:Tough call. I could not see whether the officer was wearing his baton. That would have been an appropriate weapon because he's trained.

No! No! No! No! No!

You do not match the threat, you do not spar with your opponent, you overcome the threat. Or you will likely die. In this instance even a Taser (one shot) couldn't be relied upon to stop the threat she presented.