Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:28 pm
by Bisbee
I will always defer to those who have actually done the job of policing or of corrections officers. Yet I know that even police officers have differing views on this matter of "appropriate force."
I will be looking up that book, "Meditations on Violence." The reviews sound good.
Those who have practiced martial arts (and wresting) know that there are always two elements of combat involved regardless of whether you are practicing forms (kata) or actually sparring with a competitor: heart and body. Heart, to me is the internal world of energy, quite separate from the body and the world of technique and physical strength.
With regard to martial arts, the heart or intention of the combatant is defined by his Kiai, a strong shout or directing of courage and intention. This is a powerful example of Kiyai:
This video was a young bull-elephant sexually aroused and tracking a herd of cow elephants in heat (hormones/sweat dripping from his temples between the eyes and ears). He started charging a group of students in that aggressive state and was stopped by the knowledge and firmness (kiai) of the wilderness guide.
Again, we are all energetic beings. But if we follow the idea that all situations must be controlled by use of arms, we reduce the possibilities of outcome down to maiming and killing. Martial arts, to me, has always been the exploration of other powers available to the human species to control ourselves and the people around us.
True, policing demands that you always win the combat and control the situation. But that does not preclude expanding the repertoire of tools available to us and the way in which we win.
On a different note, it's a shame that community policing is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Peace officers are only being called in response to "strangers" who are acting out of control rather than seeing a member of the community on his beat going temporarily insane due to stress. I highly suspect the outcome would have been different if the officer in this unfortunate shooting knew the woman by name and can call it out when telling her to put the axe down.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:18 pm
by modernhamlet
That guy's got balls of frickin' diamond...
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:42 pm
by dougb
On a different note, it's a shame that community policing is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Peace officers are only being called in response to "strangers" who are acting out of control rather than seeing a member of the community on his beat going temporarily insane due to stress. I highly suspect the outcome would have been different if the officer in this unfortunate shooting knew the woman by name and can call it out when telling her to put the axe down.
No evidence that it is decreasing. It's just not covered on TV. Usually it's a non event.
Woulda coulda shoulda are not helpful. Cop had to deal with what was, and was facing a species much more dangerous than an elephant. You don't know if he knew her. Sometimes, that is a reason to shoot.
She had an axe.
This is what happens when the cops are disarmed and the BG has an axe. The cops get dismembered.
Sheffield axe attacker 'was chopping bits off police officer'
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:48 pm
by LGBTGunner
Bisbee wrote:How many of you are teachers or parents? Think back to your days of taking care of or raising a child who is angry or rebelling against you or your authority. All of us have felt threatened by that challenge before. Some of us can go back further into our own past recall the days when we ourselves were lashing out due to rage or fear.
This woman was being evicted by The Law and was obviously fearing the threat of becoming destitute, possibly the straw that broke the camel's back after a long period of economic stress. Is this the kind of person you would give a 21' rule and expect anyone in her position to follow? This condition is legally defined as "temporary insanity" and I myself know it through personal experience.
Putting myself in her position, I can imagine being easily enraged by such fear; generating thoughts both homicidal and suicidal. I would want the world to Fuck Off and leave me alone. With a Sherrif's deputy at my door telling me I had days or hours to leave the property, fight-or-flight chemicals cascading through my system would make me rush forward in rage even as my mind begs for the suffering to stop: Kill me now or stop me from wanting to kill.
Yeah, that is pretty much suicide by cop. But how different is that from how a raging a child feels? Pretty similar I suspect.
The police officer by definition plays the role of a parent in this situation. The only adult in the room. Those with training to deal with domestic disturbances learn that there is only one authority in the room and you have to quickly occupy that position: be the adult in the room. When I mentioned martial arts training, it merely refers to learned techniques that the officer can use to disarm or subdue an assailant. It ain't magic. Those with greater skill learn to due so without breaking bones or permanently disfiguring an attacker. But all the techniques in the world won't work if you don't ground and center yourself first and energetically take control of the situation before any physical engagement.
It is the same thing as a teacher or parent being confident or skillful enough to take control of the room with a screaming child or an unruly student disrupting the lclassroom. The analogy is apt. So long as you know that the screaming child or student is one you are charged to protect, you don't think of hurting them further by disfiguring them or allowing them to injure you. You need to know how to manage the situation and break that cycle of fear and rage in one who is out of control.
There certainly are cases where use of deadly force is necessary to protect oneself and police officers see that more than most people in society. I am, after all, a firm believer of putting the oxygen mask on myself first before assisting others (when they drop down from a depressurizing cabin). But I humbly suggest this was not a situation where anyone's life was being threatened nor one that justified use of deadly force. In this day and age when we see so much "I feared for my life" police shootings of unarmed civilians, that the concept of an Officer of the Peace taking a chance to stand up to protect lives and serve the community seems quaint, almost B&W film cute. Yet I believe it actually takes tremendous courage to stand in the face of fear of personal injury and do the right thing, especially if it is ostensibly your job to do so.
We, as a society, are not being taught nor practicing how to be courageous enough to do the right thing. Which is sad because the economy will only create more stress, more loss of homes, more anger, rage, and fear in the poor. And the police will be facing more and more outrage over unarmed (and minimally armed) shootings of desperate people for the same reasons.
After all, who wrecked the economy? Those "successful" captains of industry who are models for our culture, fearful people who can never feel they have enough and must take more from those unable to defend themselves. That subterranean cycle of fear and rage that Hunter S. Thompson had a field day capturing and describing in the 70's is playing itself out now in an end game -a death spiral. How many are willing to do what's necessary to stop it?
If we adopted your stratagy will you be there to do the death notification? Will you tell the partner or loved ones that the rock in there life died partly because of you? Will you drive the loved ones to therapy? Be a punching bag for their abuse and anger yet still show compassion and a willingness to help in their lives? Will you and your compatriots that feel similar help with the expenses with the family?
Will you?
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:16 pm
by dougb
LGBTGunner wrote:
Bisbee wrote:How many of you are teachers or parents? Think back to your days of taking care of or raising a child who is angry or rebelling against you or your authority. All of us have felt threatened by that challenge before. Some of us can go back further into our own past recall the days when we ourselves were lashing out due to rage or fear.
This woman was being evicted by The Law and was obviously fearing the threat of becoming destitute, possibly the straw that broke the camel's back after a long period of economic stress. Is this the kind of person you would give a 21' rule and expect anyone in her position to follow? This condition is legally defined as "temporary insanity" and I myself know it through personal experience.
Putting myself in her position, I can imagine being easily enraged by such fear; generating thoughts both homicidal and suicidal. I would want the world to Fuck Off and leave me alone. With a Sherrif's deputy at my door telling me I had days or hours to leave the property, fight-or-flight chemicals cascading through my system would make me rush forward in rage even as my mind begs for the suffering to stop: Kill me now or stop me from wanting to kill.
Yeah, that is pretty much suicide by cop. But how different is that from how a raging a child feels? Pretty similar I suspect.
The police officer by definition plays the role of a parent in this situation. The only adult in the room. Those with training to deal with domestic disturbances learn that there is only one authority in the room and you have to quickly occupy that position: be the adult in the room. When I mentioned martial arts training, it merely refers to learned techniques that the officer can use to disarm or subdue an assailant. It ain't magic. Those with greater skill learn to due so without breaking bones or permanently disfiguring an attacker. But all the techniques in the world won't work if you don't ground and center yourself first and energetically take control of the situation before any physical engagement.
It is the same thing as a teacher or parent being confident or skillful enough to take control of the room with a screaming child or an unruly student disrupting the lclassroom. The analogy is apt. So long as you know that the screaming child or student is one you are charged to protect, you don't think of hurting them further by disfiguring them or allowing them to injure you. You need to know how to manage the situation and break that cycle of fear and rage in one who is out of control.
There certainly are cases where use of deadly force is necessary to protect oneself and police officers see that more than most people in society. I am, after all, a firm believer of putting the oxygen mask on myself first before assisting others (when they drop down from a depressurizing cabin). But I humbly suggest this was not a situation where anyone's life was being threatened nor one that justified use of deadly force. In this day and age when we see so much "I feared for my life" police shootings of unarmed civilians, that the concept of an Officer of the Peace taking a chance to stand up to protect lives and serve the community seems quaint, almost B&W film cute. Yet I believe it actually takes tremendous courage to stand in the face of fear of personal injury and do the right thing, especially if it is ostensibly your job to do so.
We, as a society, are not being taught nor practicing how to be courageous enough to do the right thing. Which is sad because the economy will only create more stress, more loss of homes, more anger, rage, and fear in the poor. And the police will be facing more and more outrage over unarmed (and minimally armed) shootings of desperate people for the same reasons.
After all, who wrecked the economy? Those "successful" captains of industry who are models for our culture, fearful people who can never feel they have enough and must take more from those unable to defend themselves. That subterranean cycle of fear and rage that Hunter S. Thompson had a field day capturing and describing in the 70's is playing itself out now in an end game -a death spiral. How many are willing to do what's necessary to stop it?
If we adopted your stratagy will you be there to do the death notification? Will you tell the partner or loved ones that the rock in there life died partly because of you? Will you drive the loved ones to therapy? Be a punching bag for their abuse and anger yet still show compassion and a willingness to help in their lives? Will you and your compatriots that feel similar help with the expenses with the family?
Will you?
It would be the courageous thing to do.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:34 am
by Bisbee
Some here expressed that this woman could have killed one or maybe two officers in her rage and therefore her killing was unavoidable and justified. We can agree to disagree here. But in my own anger over this shooting, I appear to lay the blame on the lack of courage for the shooting officer or blamed the department for lack of training. If you take my words as blame, I apologize.
Some have asked whether a person of my opinion would have had the courage to tell the family of a slain officer of the death notification if they stood up to the woman with an ax without using a gun. It is reasonable to assume that the officer involved in the shooting, or someone close to him in the department, actually had to do that courageous act: to notify family members that their mother, wife, or daughter was just shot and killed, not by an armed assailant but by an officer of the law.
I hope I am wrong here but some appear to express the opinion that this woman deserved to be put down like a rabid dog. After all, aside from foaming at the mouth she did seem rather crazy approaching a police officer with an ax when repeated told to stop. Quite simply, I believe it is reasonable to assume that myself and anyone in a similarly desperate situation (when one of the fundamental needs of security -shelter- is under threat) may well go into fight-or-flight mode whether that is "sane" or not.
Further, I had hoped that police officers (especially one's encouraged to do community policing) would/could/should have at least that basic level of human understanding to realize that whatever threat this woman posed to those around her, she was not a criminal, did not break the law, was not escaping nor seeking to get away with anything. She was, in her mind, defending herself against perceived threat.
If it is indeed the policy for police these days to respond to persons threatening suicide by shooting them because they pose a threat to themselves or others, then this matter is clear cut, I would have nothing to say. But if it is that the police actually trying to keep the peace and protect even suicidal individuals in our society from harming themselves or others in moments of temporary insanity, then this case possibly is an example of what not to do, or at the very least shows the danger of relying on firearms as the first line of defense.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:07 pm
by SwampGrouch
Bisbee wrote:Some here expressed that this woman could have killed one or maybe two officers in her rage and therefore her killing was unavoidable and justified. We can agree to disagree here. But in my own anger over this shooting, I appear to lay the blame on the lack of courage for the shooting officer or blamed the department for lack of training. If you take my words as blame, I apologize.
Some have asked whether a person of my opinion would have had the courage to tell the family of a slain officer of the death notification if they stood up to the woman with an ax without using a gun. It is reasonable to assume that the officer involved in the shooting, or someone close to him in the department, actually had to do that courageous act: to notify family members that their mother, wife, or daughter was just shot and killed, not by an armed assailant but by an officer of the law.
I hope I am wrong here but some appear to express the opinion that this woman deserved to be put down like a rabid dog. After all, aside from foaming at the mouth she did seem rather crazy approaching a police officer with an ax when repeated told to stop. Quite simply, I believe it is reasonable to assume that myself and anyone in a similarly desperate situation (when one of the fundamental needs of security -shelter- is under threat) may well go into fight-or-flight mode whether that is "sane" or not.
Further, I had hoped that police officers (especially one's encouraged to do community policing) would/could/should have at least that basic level of human understanding to realize that whatever threat this woman posed to those around her, she was not a criminal, did not break the law, was not escaping nor seeking to get away with anything. She was, in her mind, defending herself against perceived threat.
If it is indeed the policy for police these days to respond to persons threatening suicide by shooting them because they pose a threat to themselves or others, then this matter is clear cut, I would have nothing to say. But if it is that the police actually trying to keep the peace and protect even suicidal individuals in our society from harming themselves or others in moments of temporary insanity, then this case possibly is an example of what not to do, or at the very least shows the danger of relying on firearms as the first line of defense.
May you acquire a genuine grasp of reality and recognize what it means to be fighting for your life with little time for consideration and even less information.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:29 pm
by dougb
You are painting the police actions with a broad brush based on media coverage of isolated events that take place in a huge nation with 312 million people. Cops deal successfully, probably daily, with potential suicides and you don't hear about it because there is no blood. Cops deal with armed people daily with no bloodshed, and you may read about it in the local newspaper. Most cop interactions never make the news because they are not violent.
You want to believe that the cop wanted to shoot someone, fine-believe it. You are probably wrong. You are adamant and certain. But wrong.
You want to take on an armed person with your martial arts skills, fine. The cop was backing up and into an obstruction. No escape. He didn't want the violence at all. Advanced martial arts training is probably not required for police work and is no guarantee that you will survive against an attacker with a weapon. The cop was not in a contest. NOT A GAME. You get hit with an axe, you hurt bad. Maybe die.
Brick wall time. I am out.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:55 am
by Bisbee
Certainly the police in our nation keep the peace more than they shoot unarmed civilians. Otherwise our country would be in chaos. Do I have to say this? I am not painting all police by my statements but concerned that there is an over-reliance on firearms by the police in our country.
Now back to just this event, pay attention to the video of the entire shooting and you should notice something. Note that there are already 3 or 4 people standing next to a marked vehicle (Sheriff dept?) and at least one uniformed officer on the scene before the two police cars speed up. Notice how the Sheriff's Deputie(s) are just standing around observing the enraged woman. When the Police Officer pulls up, he immediately pulls his service weapon and levels it on the woman, making demands while BACKING UP. Now if the Sheriff's Deputies were crouching behind their vehicles with weapons drawn, it would appear more likely that everyone considered the situation and the woman dangerous. But that wasn't the case. It appears to me that the Sheriff's Deputie(s) were just chatting about the crazy woman acting out and genuinely perplexed that the shooting even occurred!
Ella Sweatt said in a telephone interview Thursday that her daughter was bipolar and the housing authority knew about her condition. She said authorities didn’t give advance notice that they were coming to see Laronda Sweatt, who had wanted to work out a payment agreement for her rent.
No one else unhostered their service weapon which indicates the situation did not appear life-threatening to any of the other uniformed officer(s) present. The deceased left her daughter in the house where they lived in for the past seven years. This shooting was sad and preventable on the face of it and possibly indicates poor training for the 3rd year officer on the force.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:34 am
by Stiff
This convinces me that body cams are generally a good idea. If there are still people willing to fault the officer, despite the video showing aggressive action by an armed person, then he could be screwed if all he got is eyewitness accounts.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:04 pm
by AndyH
Bisbee wrote:No one else unhostered their service weapon which indicates the situation did not appear life-threatening to any of the other uniformed officer(s) present. The deceased left her daughter in the house where they lived in for the past seven years. This shooting was sad and preventable on the face of it and possibly indicates poor training for the 3rd year officer on the force.
Under-funded police departments end up fielding minimally-trained officers. When time and budges are tight, anything seen as 'fluff' is stripped away. In a culture that focuses on firearms first, prevention, deescalation, and non-lethal means of control are secondary - they're the "non-essentials".
Anyone will fight if cornered. Why didn't the other officers corner the woman? When someone arrives on scene with the intent to use deadly force, the drive to use other options falls away. As they think, so shall it be.
Toss in some 'tactical operator' mindset and a side of systemic racism and a situation can start to look and smell pretty ugly pretty quickly.
Bisbee - I think you nailed it. It's past time that our police forces add a few more tools to their belts and give them as much initial consideration as their sidearm.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:25 pm
by dougb
Perspective counts. Someone charges you with an axe, I am not shooting. I am in no danger. You, on the other hand, have a problem. Unless you are Chuck Norris and have a good script to follow. Or a mall ninja, with a great backflip out of danger.
One of my brothers ran a SWAT team backing up another team trying to remove a man from a barricaded office. Man charged the other team with a Ruger revolver, 44 caliber. My brothers team did not fire a shot. Other team unloaded on the man. Perspective.
If you carry, this is the kind of thing you might face. Choose wrong and die.
She already had one cop bleeding. She was moving in on the new cop when he drew. I won't second guess a cop who is being attacked. She wasn't moving in on the other people.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:41 pm
by AndyH
dougb wrote:Perspective counts. Someone charges you with an axe, I am not shooting. I am in no danger. You, on the other hand, have a problem.
"You" didn't corner the troubled woman. "My" problem started when I rolled into the middle of the scene and had my weapon drawn before getting both feet on the ground. In that instance, "I" am the problem, not the woman with the axe.
Here's another example - a 12 year old with an air pistol. The kid was dead before the 2nd officer left the car. I wonder which company is selling police training material these days?
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:14 pm
by Stiff
Did the guy who shot the 12 year old boy also shot the woman with the axe?
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Yet another shooting of a black American by whilte police officers in a racially charged atmosphere, indicative of problems in training or review of the police officers in certain police departments.
Wikipedia:
Timothy Loehmann
Loehmann, who fired the shots that killed Rice, joined Cleveland's police force in March 2014. In 2012, he had spent five months with the police department in Independence, about 13 miles (21 km) south of Cleveland, with four of those months spent in the police academy.
In a memo to Independence's human resources manager, released by the city in the aftermath of the shooting, Independence deputy police chief Jim Polak wrote that Loehmann had resigned rather than face certain termination due to concerns that he lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer. Polak said that Loehmann was unable to follow "basic functions as instructed". He specifically cited a "dangerous loss of composure" that occurred in a weapons training exercise, during which Loehmann's weapons handling was "dismal" and he became visibly "distracted and weepy" as a result of relationship problems. The memo concluded, "Individually, these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions, I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies." It was subsequently revealed that Cleveland police officials never reviewed Loehmann's personnel file from Independence prior to hiring him.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:43 pm
by Stiff
So it's not the same guy?
There was a mom who got shot by her toddler because she left her gun lying around in the car. Just like her I'm a civilian handgun permit holder. Am I also an idiot for carrying a gun?
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:49 pm
by SwampGrouch
Well, while you're at it, here's another one for y'all to Monday morning quarterback.
Bloodthirsty pigs just itching to shoot someone.
But if he was black they would have shot him eleventyhundred times.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:56 am
by spara
I wonder where the sheriff deputies were when this was happening.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:54 pm
by AndyH
Stiff wrote:So it's not the same guy?
There was a mom who got shot by her toddler because she left her gun lying around in the car. Just like her I'm a civilian handgun permit holder. Am I also an idiot for carrying a gun?
Are you suggesting that the toddler was an undercover officer and he witnessed the woman exceeding the speed limit?
The fact remains that there are too many examples of police arriving on scene and killing a civilian before opening their mouths, or at the same time they're yelling 'stop'. The situations are similar enough that one begins to wonder if their departments buy the same workbooks.
One of my old AF friends was married to a small town TN officer. They don't sit around with a beer and talk about pulling the white woman over in the SUV for speeding - they talk about how hard it is to get decent weapons and training, and they talk about "that black guy" they cornered in the woods a few years back, how many small towns sent officers to conduct the hunt, and how many rounds they had to shoot to "bring the boy down."
I'm not suggesting that policing has gotten any easier in the past 20/30/40 years. But when I was a kid, officers walked the beat down town and we knew their names. They talked well before they started striking tactical poses and reaching for the revolver. I'm retired AF. My neighbor is a Marine and on the local police force (large city). We both agree that modern policing is much more reminiscent of tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan than the 1960s in the Midwest. What that means for us as a country I don't know, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that something's changed in a big-dog way...
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:01 pm
by SwampGrouch
When did you go through basic, Andy?
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:25 pm
by Stiff
AndyH wrote:
Stiff wrote:So it's not the same guy?
There was a mom who got shot by her toddler because she left her gun lying around in the car. Just like her I'm a civilian handgun permit holder. Am I also an idiot for carrying a gun?
Are you suggesting that the toddler was an undercover officer and he witnessed the woman exceeding the speed limit?
The fact remains that there are too many examples of police arriving on scene and killing a civilian before opening their mouths, or at the same time they're yelling 'stop'. The situations are similar enough that one begins to wonder if their departments buy the same workbooks.
One of my old AF friends was married to a small town TN officer. They don't sit around with a beer and talk about pulling the white woman over in the SUV for speeding - they talk about how hard it is to get decent weapons and training, and they talk about "that black guy" they cornered in the woods a few years back, how many small towns sent officers to conduct the hunt, and how many rounds they had to shoot to "bring the boy down."
I'm not suggesting that policing has gotten any easier in the past 20/30/40 years. But when I was a kid, officers walked the beat down town and we knew their names. They talked well before they started striking tactical poses and reaching for the revolver. I'm retired AF. My neighbor is a Marine and on the local police force (large city). We both agree that modern policing is much more reminiscent of tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan than the 1960s in the Midwest. What that means for us as a country I don't know, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that something's changed in a big-dog way...
Define "too many".
The drama queen answer is "one innocent life lost is one too many", but that's unrealistic. If you want no mistakes whatsoever, then disarm the cops. They'd be next to useless against armed criminals and they'll incur a lot of casualties, but at least they can't kill people.
Police departments vary considerably from one place to the next, just like neighborhoods vary greatly from one town to the next. The cop who shot the woman with the axe had nothing to do with the cop who shot the kid. Merging the two unrelated cases, from unrelated towns and unrelated police departments is reaching. It's the same broad brush often used against all gun owners, whenever an idiot hurts himself or others with his gun.
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:37 am
by AndyH
Stiff wrote:
AndyH wrote:
Stiff wrote:So it's not the same guy?
There was a mom who got shot by her toddler because she left her gun lying around in the car. Just like her I'm a civilian handgun permit holder. Am I also an idiot for carrying a gun?
Are you suggesting that the toddler was an undercover officer and he witnessed the woman exceeding the speed limit?
The fact remains that there are too many examples of police arriving on scene and killing a civilian before opening their mouths, or at the same time they're yelling 'stop'. The situations are similar enough that one begins to wonder if their departments buy the same workbooks.
<much snippage>
What that means for us as a country I don't know, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that something's changed in a big-dog way...
Define "too many".
The drama queen answer is "one innocent life lost is one too many", but that's unrealistic. If you want no mistakes whatsoever, then disarm the cops. They'd be next to useless against armed criminals and they'll incur a lot of casualties, but at least they can't kill people.
Police departments vary considerably from one place to the next, just like neighborhoods vary greatly from one town to the next. The cop who shot the woman with the axe had nothing to do with the cop who shot the kid. Merging the two unrelated cases, from unrelated towns and unrelated police departments is reaching. It's the same broad brush often used against all gun owners, whenever an idiot hurts himself or others with his gun.
How many insta-kills of unarmed civilians by police should be acceptable in a society that claims to be pretty fond of the rule of law?
I'm not suggesting that police should never select their sidearm (or that they should be disarmed). I'm simply wondering why the sidearm is most often the first tool chosen - not only when, but especially when, the person they're sent to confront is unarmed (or in the case of the topic woman, armed with an incredibly short range weapon) (or in the case of the Austin shooting, NAKED).
Introducing additional cases isn't a broad-brush, it's assembling dots that might be an indicator that something is broken, just as it would be if more than 1100 parents were shot in the back by their toddlers.
The economic downturn of the past several years has devastated local economies and their local law enforcement agencies. Sworn to protect and serve the public, law enforcement faces a bleak outlook. The nation’s law enforcement agencies are confronting severe budget cuts and unmanageable layoffs, and they are fundamentally changing how they keep the public safe. COPS compiled data from a number of current surveys and data sets, which show the impact that the current economic climate has had on law enforcement agencies nationwide.**
Nearly a quarter of American cities surveyed have made cuts to public safety budgets...Many agencies have greatly reduced training opportunities for their officers.
SwampGrouch wrote:When did you go through basic, Andy?
Early '83, SG - 10 or so years after you?
Re: Tennessee: white LEO shoots, kills ax-wielding black wom
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:49 am
by SwampGrouch
AndyH wrote:
SwampGrouch wrote:When did you go through basic, Andy?
Bloodthirsty pigs just itching to shoot someone. 