The Liberal Gun Club Forum

SilasSoule wrote:

Stiff wrote:
Do you have stats to back up this assertion that a lot more non-criminal citizens aren't making it home than cops? No, Alex Jones' site doesn't count as fact.

Since the government doesn't keep stats on this kind of trivial information, we have a range of estimates for citizens killed by police in 2015:

"... the Washington Post cites 975, while the Guardian puts the tally at 1,125 — the website killedbypolice.net found that police have killed 1,186 people in 2015..."

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/1 ... lice-2015/

Police killed by citizens is much better tracked for some reason. According to this group, 124 officers were killed in 2015, 42 of which were firearm related:

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/research-bulletins/

Just because you are a suspect doesn't mean you are a criminal - judges or juries decide that, not police officers.

Technically speaking all of them were innocent because they died before they got a chance to be convicted. However, are you saying that most of these people was shot without proper justification?

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes ... n-the-job/

This guy fired 21 shots at a cop. Since he died before he could get arrested, he was forever a 'suspect', technically 'innocent' because that's how the legal system work. Fortunately the legal system also recognizes that shooting back at a suspect and causing his death outside court is ok.

Your number simply shows how many suspects died. Until you can show how many of them were wrongfully shot, you can't claim innocent citizens lives were lost.

England and Wales: 55 fatal police shootings in 24 YEARS.
U.S.: 59 fatal police shootings in first 24 DAYS of 2015.

Hmmm, does this mean we have that much more crime?

By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... -countries

SilasSoule wrote:England and Wales: 55 fatal police shootings in 24 YEARS.
U.S.: 59 fatal police shootings in first 24 DAYS of 2015.

Hmmm, does this mean we have that much more crime?

By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... -countries

We have many more suspects, with guns. Wales population: 3 million, U.S. population 318 million. The average number of firearms in Britain is 3.3 per 100 people, there are more guns than people in USA.

Does that meme still sound as impressive when other facts are brought in?

More people live in the state of Minnesota than Wales. There is a bigger population in LA county California then many European countries.

The population of England AND Wales is about 57,000,000.

SilasSoule wrote:The population of England AND Wales is about 57,000,000.

You can either take them separately or cite the population for the entire United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Otherwise, you're playing bullshit games with stats - nothing more, nothing less.

Are you afraid that including Northern Ireland will throw your argument into the tank?

Not my figures, The Guardian's figures. Maybe they were going for symmetry?

SilasSoule wrote:Not my figures, The Guardian's figures. Maybe they were going for symmetry?

Maybe you should be more careful about who you cite as an authoritative source. What cred you had left is in the toilet.

SwampGrouch wrote:

SilasSoule wrote:Not my figures, The Guardian's figures. Maybe they were going for symmetry?

Maybe you should be more careful about who you cite as an authoritative source. What cred you had left is in the toilet.

SilasSoule is using the best figures available, SG. There's no mandatory reporting process for police shootings in the US. The Guardian project scours death notices, newspaper articles, and police reports to put numbers together. Last I checked, the DoJ/FBI numbers are running about 50% lower.

AndyH wrote:

SwampGrouch wrote:

SilasSoule wrote:Not my figures, The Guardian's figures. Maybe they were going for symmetry?

Maybe you should be more careful about who you cite as an authoritative source. What cred you had left is in the toilet.

SilasSoule is using the best figures available, SG. There's no mandatory reporting process for police shootings in the US. The Guardian project scours death notices, newspaper articles, and police reports to put numbers together. Last I checked, the DoJ/FBI numbers are running about 50% lower.

I stand by my statement. The Guardian's coverage is more editorial than news in nature.

SwampGrouch wrote:

AndyH wrote:

SwampGrouch wrote:

SilasSoule wrote:Not my figures, The Guardian's figures. Maybe they were going for symmetry?

Maybe you should be more careful about who you cite as an authoritative source. What cred you had left is in the toilet.

SilasSoule is using the best figures available, SG. There's no mandatory reporting process for police shootings in the US. The Guardian project scours death notices, newspaper articles, and police reports to put numbers together. Last I checked, the DoJ/FBI numbers are running about 50% lower.

I stand by my statement. The Guardian's coverage is more editorial than news in nature.

Fair enough, and I agree with you 100% on their 'coverage' - I take that as 'stories'. I started digging deeply into this subject the day after Brown was killed in Ferguson (caution...retired intel analyst with too much time on his hands ) and frankly am very surprised to find how 'broken' our information processes appear to be. We don't have good numbers from the well run police forces, much less from the ones that are broken.

As for the idiots in Oregon...I was searching my desk for the button to call in a drone strike when the 2nd week of the armed insurrection started. While a few of the FBI processes seem...defective..., the Oregon State Police and local Sheriff offices seemed to be amazing overall. The OSP officer standing in knee-deep snow with a taser should get a commendation - much respect. I was surprised that the shots fired at Finicum were .223 and .308 and not 9mm or .40 though - that had to hurt...

AndyH wrote:...I agree with you 100% on their 'coverage' - I take that as 'stories'. I started digging deeply into this subject the day after Brown was killed in Ferguson (caution...retired intel analyst with too much time on his hands ) and frankly am very surprised to find how 'broken' our information processes appear to be. We don't have good numbers from the well run police forces, much less from the ones that are broken.

I suspect we attended some of the same schools in the AF.

Add to that 30+ years between the private and public sectors as a criminal investigator. Makes one fussy about sources of information and what we called "validity ratings" when I was a zoomie (A = sure thing, D = rumor at best and maybe even disinformation, IIRC).