The Liberal Gun Club Forum

Merkwürdigliebe!

shinzen wrote:

Antediluvian superstitious fools brutalized other superstitious fools for whatever reasons.

This. And how it's still managing to impact relations 1400 years later is beyond comprehension. Drop the damned grudge. FFS.

“History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.”

― James Joyce, Ulysses

comedian wrote:

Coach wrote:

KnightsFan wrote:Jews and Christians were long able to live peacefully under Muslim rule, they merely had to pay a tax and could worship in their own spaces and refrain from proselytizing. In fact, until the 30s Baghdad and Tehran had thriving Jewish and Christian populations. The Levant was a peaceful area full if different religions mixing and interacting.

It's only been since the Wahhabi movement joined with the al-Saud family that destruction of Christianity and Judaism has been encouraged. And that's just a front to get the little people to fight on behalf of the Saud family. Hell we're really just seeing the Crusades in reverse.

Well, that ain't exactly so...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... tment.html

While the website contains some truth - the best propaganda usually does- most of the myths the authors claim to debunk are themselves distortions or outright lies.
Let's take on the great granddaddy of all pro- Israel talking points= that from the beginning Islam was hostile towards the Jews and Mohammed personally oversaw the execution of the Banu Quraya and several other Jewish Arab tribes. The Zionist version states that the Muslims executed the men and enslaved the women of these tribes simply because they hated Jews. But, as usual, the reality is a bit more complicated.
The historical record shows that these tribes of Arab Jews were originally allies of Mohammed and the Muslims, but later they switched sides to the pagan Arabs of Mecca, who were the Muslim's bitterest foes. After a battle and siege the pagans and Jews were defeated and the Muslims killed all of the men and took the women captive.
According to the rules of war of the time, in Christian Europe as well as the Middle East, if an enemy city underwent a siege and it fell then the inhabitants' lives were forfeit and could be disposed of in any manner the conqueror saw fit. Execution of POWs and enslavement of the non- combatants was the usual fate of the defeated. Add to this the stain of betrayal and it is no surprise the Muslim forces acted in this manner.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

Please don't give loons any ideas. I have to live in DC, and it's bad enough already having Lapierre ensconced in the DC suburbs.

tc556guy wrote:For devout Muslims, I would say no. Islam requires that they convert non-Muslims, by force if need be.
Islam is simply not compatible with Western values
For Muslims who are not so devout, and not following Islam quite as closely as others, they can become Westernized, but then you run the risk that they'll be here in our midst and THEN radicalize like the shooter in CA

Wow, how did I not see this thread earlier. I was born here and I consider myself to be devout Muslim at least to the extent that I define "devout." That's a somewhat loaded term as I'm sure people would say that wahhabist are "devout" whereas I would say they are mislead.

We are not required to convert Muslims and as already quoted here we are reminded in the Quran that religion can not be forced on people. We are advised via the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad that the best way to "convert" people is to set a good example. Even if they dont convert we are required to show respect for other religious practices. Today I actually attended a Christmas music event at public venue where I live because I think traditional Christmas music is beautiful and one of the band members is a cousin who plays the Devil's instrument...the violin

Plus we are not as unified as the outside world may think. Cultural and ethnic division play a very important role in assimilation and are often larger factors than shared religion.

The Imam in my community has said over and over that in no other country in the world are we able to practice Islam is purely and freely as in America. The Muslim immigrants I know are in the United States to chase the same American dream we all want. Most escaped oppressive regimes where they demanded people practice Islam in rituals only, but didn't want their citizens to practice the day-to-day ideals such as freedom and respect for others.

America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

Himar wrote:

tc556guy wrote:For devout Muslims, I would say no. Islam requires that they convert non-Muslims, by force if need be.
Islam is simply not compatible with Western values
For Muslims who are not so devout, and not following Islam quite as closely as others, they can become Westernized, but then you run the risk that they'll be here in our midst and THEN radicalize like the shooter in CA

Wow, how did I not see this thread earlier. I was born here and I consider myself to be devout Muslim at least to the extent that I define "devout." That's a somewhat loaded term as I'm sure people would say that wahhabist are "devout" whereas I would say they are mislead.

We are not required to convert Muslims and as already quoted here we are reminded in the Quran that religion can not be forced on people. We are advised via the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad that the best way to "convert" people is to set a good example. Even if they dont convert we are required to show respect for other religious practices. Today I actually attended a Christmas music event at public venue where I live because I think traditional Christmas music is beautiful and one of the band members is a cousin who plays the Devil's instrument...the violin

Plus we are not as unified as the outside world may think. Cultural and ethnic division play a very important role in assimilation and are often larger factors than shared religion.

The Imam in my community has said over and over that in no other country in the world are we able to practice Islam is purely and freely as in America. The Muslim immigrants I know are in the United States to chase the same American dream we all want. Most escaped oppressive regimes where they demanded people practice Islam in rituals only, but didn't want their citizens to practice the day-to-day ideals such as freedom and respect for others.

America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

Off topic here, but... Dude, I really appreciate your posts.

Himar wrote:America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

I think you provided the best answer the the "question" that anyone could! Thank you!

Himar wrote: America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

Well said. Also relevant:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/10/europe/am ... index.html

"Yes. A Muslim man blew me up, and I lost my leg," he wrote. "A Muslim man also lost his arm that day wearing a British Uniform.

"A Muslim medic was in the helicopter that took me from the field. A Muslim surgeon performed the surgery that saved my life.

"A Muslim Nurse was part of the team that helped me when I returned to the UK.

"A Muslim Healthcare Assistant was part of the team that sorted out my day to day needs in rehabilitation when I was learning to walk.

"A Muslim taxi driver gave me a free ride the first time I went for a beer with my Dad after I came home.

"A Muslim doctor offered my Dad comfort and advice in a pub, when he didn't know how to deal with my medicines and side effects."

The thought that one, simply due to their religion, is unable to integrate, is simply absurd. To quote a great philosopher:

"Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Symbolising the elements that create truth and beauty."

(A few of you may get that one. If so, nerds rejoice!)

SailDesign wrote:

KnightsFan wrote: To paraphrase this and quote an old professor of mine: "England put one foot in the Mediterranean one foot in India and took a crap."

And for some inexplicable reason, the rest of the world has been sifting through that crap ever since.....

Nothing mysterious about the rea$on:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fi ... -wells.jpg

Ask Winston Churchill, First Lord of the Admiralty, why this matters.

Himar wrote:

tc556guy wrote:For devout Muslims, I would say no. Islam requires that they convert non-Muslims, by force if need be.
Islam is simply not compatible with Western values
For Muslims who are not so devout, and not following Islam quite as closely as others, they can become Westernized, but then you run the risk that they'll be here in our midst and THEN radicalize like the shooter in CA

Wow, how did I not see this thread earlier. I was born here and I consider myself to be devout Muslim at least to the extent that I define "devout." That's a somewhat loaded term as I'm sure people would say that wahhabist are "devout" whereas I would say they are mislead.

We are not required to convert Muslims and as already quoted here we are reminded in the Quran that religion can not be forced on people. We are advised via the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad that the best way to "convert" people is to set a good example. Even if they dont convert we are required to show respect for other religious practices. Today I actually attended a Christmas music event at public venue where I live because I think traditional Christmas music is beautiful and one of the band members is a cousin who plays the Devil's instrument...the violin

Plus we are not as unified as the outside world may think. Cultural and ethnic division play a very important role in assimilation and are often larger factors than shared religion.

The Imam in my community has said over and over that in no other country in the world are we able to practice Islam is purely and freely as in America. The Muslim immigrants I know are in the United States to chase the same American dream we all want. Most escaped oppressive regimes where they demanded people practice Islam in rituals only, but didn't want their citizens to practice the day-to-day ideals such as freedom and respect for others.

America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

From your perspective then, how do you explain radicalization?

Merkwuerdigliebe wrote:

Himar wrote:

tc556guy wrote:For devout Muslims, I would say no. Islam requires that they convert non-Muslims, by force if need be.
Islam is simply not compatible with Western values
For Muslims who are not so devout, and not following Islam quite as closely as others, they can become Westernized, but then you run the risk that they'll be here in our midst and THEN radicalize like the shooter in CA

Wow, how did I not see this thread earlier. I was born here and I consider myself to be devout Muslim at least to the extent that I define "devout." That's a somewhat loaded term as I'm sure people would say that wahhabist are "devout" whereas I would say they are mislead.

We are not required to convert Muslims and as already quoted here we are reminded in the Quran that religion can not be forced on people. We are advised via the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad that the best way to "convert" people is to set a good example. Even if they dont convert we are required to show respect for other religious practices. Today I actually attended a Christmas music event at public venue where I live because I think traditional Christmas music is beautiful and one of the band members is a cousin who plays the Devil's instrument...the violin

Plus we are not as unified as the outside world may think. Cultural and ethnic division play a very important role in assimilation and are often larger factors than shared religion.

The Imam in my community has said over and over that in no other country in the world are we able to practice Islam is purely and freely as in America. The Muslim immigrants I know are in the United States to chase the same American dream we all want. Most escaped oppressive regimes where they demanded people practice Islam in rituals only, but didn't want their citizens to practice the day-to-day ideals such as freedom and respect for others.

America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

From your perspective then, how do you explain radicalization?

From my non Muslim perspective it would be the same as we see with the radical evangelical Christians and the anti abortion groups, by selective repetitive propaganda and denial of facts and other views.

Merkwuerdigliebe wrote:

Himar wrote:

tc556guy wrote:For devout Muslims, I would say no. Islam requires that they convert non-Muslims, by force if need be.
Islam is simply not compatible with Western values
For Muslims who are not so devout, and not following Islam quite as closely as others, they can become Westernized, but then you run the risk that they'll be here in our midst and THEN radicalize like the shooter in CA

Wow, how did I not see this thread earlier. I was born here and I consider myself to be devout Muslim at least to the extent that I define "devout." That's a somewhat loaded term as I'm sure people would say that wahhabist are "devout" whereas I would say they are mislead.

We are not required to convert Muslims and as already quoted here we are reminded in the Quran that religion can not be forced on people. We are advised via the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad that the best way to "convert" people is to set a good example. Even if they dont convert we are required to show respect for other religious practices. Today I actually attended a Christmas music event at public venue where I live because I think traditional Christmas music is beautiful and one of the band members is a cousin who plays the Devil's instrument...the violin

Plus we are not as unified as the outside world may think. Cultural and ethnic division play a very important role in assimilation and are often larger factors than shared religion.

The Imam in my community has said over and over that in no other country in the world are we able to practice Islam is purely and freely as in America. The Muslim immigrants I know are in the United States to chase the same American dream we all want. Most escaped oppressive regimes where they demanded people practice Islam in rituals only, but didn't want their citizens to practice the day-to-day ideals such as freedom and respect for others.

America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

From your perspective then, how do you explain radicalization?

Ignorance and lack of hope and a the ability of the individual to carry out acts that the rest of us would not consider. I think underlying any radical terrorist of any stripe is that they are comfortable with inflicting harm on others irrespective of beliefs. Take a psychotic personality and add a layer of justification via misquoted, and misread religious text and you get radicalization. It also doesn't help to destroy countries and bomb people and expect that nothing bad would come out of it. I dont justify it nor defend it. Its simply a historical fact, a law of nature and a law of physics that actions have reactions. What you do today has a consequence.

Merkwuerdigliebe wrote:

Himar wrote:

tc556guy wrote:For devout Muslims, I would say no. Islam requires that they convert non-Muslims, by force if need be.
Islam is simply not compatible with Western values
For Muslims who are not so devout, and not following Islam quite as closely as others, they can become Westernized, but then you run the risk that they'll be here in our midst and THEN radicalize like the shooter in CA

Wow, how did I not see this thread earlier. I was born here and I consider myself to be devout Muslim at least to the extent that I define "devout." That's a somewhat loaded term as I'm sure people would say that wahhabist are "devout" whereas I would say they are mislead.

We are not required to convert Muslims and as already quoted here we are reminded in the Quran that religion can not be forced on people. We are advised via the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad that the best way to "convert" people is to set a good example. Even if they dont convert we are required to show respect for other religious practices. Today I actually attended a Christmas music event at public venue where I live because I think traditional Christmas music is beautiful and one of the band members is a cousin who plays the Devil's instrument...the violin

Plus we are not as unified as the outside world may think. Cultural and ethnic division play a very important role in assimilation and are often larger factors than shared religion.

The Imam in my community has said over and over that in no other country in the world are we able to practice Islam is purely and freely as in America. The Muslim immigrants I know are in the United States to chase the same American dream we all want. Most escaped oppressive regimes where they demanded people practice Islam in rituals only, but didn't want their citizens to practice the day-to-day ideals such as freedom and respect for others.

America as a country and as an idea doesn't exist without Muslims, just as much as it doesn't exist without any other group.

From your perspective then, how do you explain radicalization?

Er, maybe because the U.S, and Britain have been using the Middle East as their own personal oil pump since the early 20th century?
The West has, and continues, to support the bloodiest regimes over there and helps them suppress popular dissent ( see Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. ).