Save the Warthog!!!

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http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2 ... ts-future/
But the twin-jet A-10, an ungainly-looking, single-pilot plane with thick, straight wings and a massive, nose-mounted cannon, is out of favor with Air Force leaders — despite being vitally important to the U.S.-led campaign against Islamic State. The flying branch’s top generals and civilian officials have fought for years to get rid of all 300 A-10s and divert their operators and budget to other initiatives. Meanwhile, a grass-roots effort led by current and former U.S. ground troops and bolstered by key lawmakers has protected the A-10, also known by its nickname “Warthog.”

Why the Warthog fell out of favor, and how the plane endures despite the Air Force’s eagerness to retire it, reveals deep schisms within the U.S. military as it continues its war against Islamic extremists while also retooling to deter high-tech Russian forces.
“The A-10 and the close-air support mission have always been seen as lower priorities that take money away from favored programs,” said Mandy Smithberger, director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Center for Defense Information, part of the Project On Government Oversight in Washington. [“For the Air Force, it’s not an emotional issue: it’s a sequestration-driven decision,” explained General Mark Welsh, the Air Force chief of staff. “We don’t have enough money last year or this coming year to fund all of the things that we currently have in our force structure.” The Air Force said it would reassign F-15s and F-16s — and eventually F-35s — to support the ground troops.

The flying branch justified the plan to get rid of the A-10 on technological grounds. “Ten years from now, we must be a more modern Air Force,” Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James told the Washington Post. “We have to buy new [aircraft], and we have to keep advancing the ball on technology so that we stay ahead of our potential adversaries around the world.”

The Government Accountability Office questioned the Air Force’s assertion that retiring the A-10s would save billions of dollars. “The Air Force has not fully assessed the cost savings associated with A-10 divestment or its alternatives,” the agency reported. “Our analysis found that the Air Force’s estimated savings are incomplete.”

Indeed, the brute-simple Warthog costs just $17,000 per flight hour for fuel and maintenance. An F-16 costs $22,000 per hour. An F-35 costs almost double the Warthog — $32,000 per hour. And an F-15 costs even more, roughly $42,000 for every hour it’s in the air. The A-10 is cheap.
These are two excerpts from the longer article. I can't recommend reading it highly enough. More importantly, I think we (either as individuals or as a group) need to wade into this. It's absolute horseshit to get rid of the best warplane in our inventory. Keeping the ground troops safe HAS to be our highest priority.

I plan on contacting my elected officials about this. I will be sending them a polite but very strongly worded opinion on how we need to keep the A-10 flying. I hope I convince all of you to do the same.
If liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory. - Mickey Kaus, The New Republic

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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I have always been a long time fan and supporter of the Wart Hog. Best damn airplane for the job ever .. If they really want to retire this model, they need to make a upgrade model or a craft similar, not just drop it all together. But for the economics, I would for sure be for keeping it. However, the pentagon has never been one to make calls based on quality and cost effectiveness. They would rather spend as much as they can on pure crap. A great example of that was Burt Rutan / Scaled Composites enter a bid for aircraft specified by the Pentagon. Not only did the aircraft do everything and more than required, it cost 30 million per plane less than the nearest competitor. So they lost. Reasoning by the pentagon, they had a budget allocated and his cost did not fit the budget.
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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The Air Force has never liked the A-10. It is not the fast glamour plane and it is used for ground support not a mission the Air Force likes to perform. Now the Air Force will tell you the F-35 will be able to do everything the A-10 can do and more at a lower cost. If you believe that then you are also voting for Trump or Carson for their foreign affairs expertise.

The dividing factions of Fighter vs. Bomber Vs Tactical vs Strategic in the Air Force go back to before WWII. After the War and before the creation of the Air force as a separate service there was Bomber Command a semi separate service from the Army. Later to become Strategic Air Command. SAC even had its own fighter wings with the mission to protect the bombers. These were separate from Tactical Air Command the redheaded stepchild that was to do the ground support. This carries on to this day even with Drones and Missiles space command etc.

Many of the generals are still fighting the wars of 60 years ago. Just recently the Air Force and DOD signed a contract with Northrop Grumman to build a long rage strike bomber that will be able to penetrate deeply into Soviet Russian and Chinese air space and deliver nuclear weapons.
Northrop Grumman has won the contract to build the US Air Force’s next-generation Long Range Strike Bomber (LRS-B), an industry-shaping award that breathes new life into the world's sixth-largest defense company.

After US financial markets closed Tuesday evening, Defense Secretary Ash Carter and Air Force leadership announced that Northrop beat out the team of Boeing and Lockheed Martin for the contract, which is expected to top $55 billion over the life of the program. It's the largest military aircraft contract since Lockheed Martin won the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) more than a decade ago.

Northrop now has the Pentagon's blessing to build a new fleet of aircraft to replace the Air Force’s aging B-52s and B-1s. As builder of the B-2 stealth bomber, Northrop beat out a joint Lockheed Martin-Boeing team in a closely watched competition that has lasted months longer than anticipated.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /74661394/

Instead of building another close support aircraft like the A-10 the Air force goes for a heavy bomber that will rarely be used. like the B-1 of today.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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TrueTexan wrote:The Air Force has never liked the A-10. It is not the fast glamour plane and it is used for ground support not a mission the Air Force likes to perform. Now the Air Force will tell you the F-35 will be able to do everything the A-10 can do and more at a lower cost. If you believe that then you are also voting for Trump or Carson for their foreign affairs expertise.
Simple solution. Give all the A10s to the Army and Marines. But of course if you decide to do that, the Airforce will then demand they just have to keep them and they are so important.

Kind of like my kids when one doesnt want something, so you offer it to the other. Then it becomes invaluable and they never wanted to NOT have it.... :lol:
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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As said before, the Airforce has always hated the A-10, which is one of those few Cold War weapon systems that found good use after The Wall came down.

It's funny how the Air Force says the A 10 is too old, when we have bombers (B52), cargo planes (almost the whole damn fleet) and fighters that are as old or older than the A10.

I love the A10, both in it's new role of close air support and it's original role as a tank killer. Since American military strategy since WWII has depended on obtaining air superiority, it only made sense that we put wings on our tank killers and put them in the sky.

The A10 saved us BILLIONS in trying to match USSR tank-for-tank in Europe.
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Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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The A-10 was designed to kill Soviet tanks...now it can do a whole lot more.....never mind that it's 40+ years old.
The J-35 has failed to fulfill any of it's roles, costed way too much and still doesn't work.
Why don't we just upgrade the A-10 as did the Israelis with the F-4 Phantom...

Give it new engines, new avionics, new ground and air radar along with a host of new munitions and stores for it to carry.
They turned a 40+ year old obsolete A/C into an all-weather air interdiction and close air support system.
The Kurnas 2000.

I think we need to stop pandering to the services as far as 'what they want or don't want, clearly we've been down this road before.
The system was the F-111, the Navy didn't like it...and later they redesigned it into the F-14.
Clearly all the Armed Forces won't agree on a particular weapons system.
They each want their own toy...but when shown what the other has...they start whining.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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I think its more pandering to the MIC than the armed services. The MIC gives lots of contributions and brides to the politicians.
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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dandad wrote:
Simple solution. Give all the A10s to the Army and Marines. But of course if you decide to do that, the Airforce will then demand they just have to keep them and they are so important.

Kind of like my kids when one doesnt want something, so you offer it to the other. Then it becomes invaluable and they never wanted to NOT have it.... :lol:
I should have said that in my OP. :thumbup: I've always been struck that the Buck Rogers service has the A-10 and the actual ground pounding services didn't. And having an aircraft carrier variant makes sense on many different levels.
If liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory. - Mickey Kaus, The New Republic

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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MayhemVI wrote:
dandad wrote:
Simple solution. Give all the A10s to the Army and Marines. But of course if you decide to do that, the Airforce will then demand they just have to keep them and they are so important.

Kind of like my kids when one doesnt want something, so you offer it to the other. Then it becomes invaluable and they never wanted to NOT have it.... :lol:
I should have said that in my OP. :thumbup: I've always been struck that the Buck Rogers service has the A-10 and the actual ground pounding services didn't. And having an aircraft carrier variant makes sense on many different levels.
Not as simple as it sounds. The Army is not allowed by regulations and law to have fixed wing combat aircraft. That's why the Air Force has the drones with the Hellfires and not the army which is right there to control them.

The Marines have the Harriers which is good for close support and is more versatile. Has a higher top speed and does not require another fighter for top cover protection, whereas the A10 with its slow top speed is a sitting duck for enemy fighters.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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TrueTexan wrote:
MayhemVI wrote:
dandad wrote:
Simple solution. Give all the A10s to the Army and Marines. But of course if you decide to do that, the Airforce will then demand they just have to keep them and they are so important.

Kind of like my kids when one doesnt want something, so you offer it to the other. Then it becomes invaluable and they never wanted to NOT have it.... :lol:
I should have said that in my OP. :thumbup: I've always been struck that the Buck Rogers service has the A-10 and the actual ground pounding services didn't. And having an aircraft carrier variant makes sense on many different levels.
Not as simple as it sounds. The Army is not allowed by regulations and law to have fixed wing combat aircraft. That's why the Air Force has the drones with the Hellfires and not the army which is right there to control them.

The Marines have the Harriers which is good for close support and is more versatile. Has a higher top speed and does not require another fighter for top cover protection, whereas the A10 with its slow top speed is a sitting duck for enemy fighters.

change the law. Its done all the time. Im sure the law was put in place to appease some anally retentive air force generals back during the inception of the AF, so they could be "different"
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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dandad wrote:
TrueTexan wrote:
MayhemVI wrote:
dandad wrote:
Simple solution. Give all the A10s to the Army and Marines. But of course if you decide to do that, the Airforce will then demand they just have to keep them and they are so important.

Kind of like my kids when one doesnt want something, so you offer it to the other. Then it becomes invaluable and they never wanted to NOT have it.... :lol:
I should have said that in my OP. :thumbup: I've always been struck that the Buck Rogers service has the A-10 and the actual ground pounding services didn't. And having an aircraft carrier variant makes sense on many different levels.
Not as simple as it sounds. The Army is not allowed by regulations and law to have fixed wing combat aircraft. That's why the Air Force has the drones with the Hellfires and not the army which is right there to control them.

The Marines have the Harriers which is good for close support and is more versatile. Has a higher top speed and does not require another fighter for top cover protection, whereas the A10 with its slow top speed is a sitting duck for enemy fighters.
change the law. Its done all the time. Im sure the law was put in place to appease some anally retentive air force generals back during the inception of the AF, so they could be "different"
While we're at it lets add a rider that the army has command of all ground forces including Marine Corp, SEALS, Air Force Special Ops. If it fights on land it's Army. If it fights on water it's Navy except for strategic weapons and long range weapons like cruise missiles. All tactical ground support aircraft goes to the army.

Of course we could just get rid of all branches of the military and combine them into one service called the US Military with three divisions of Air Naval and Ground. Before taking on higher command you will have had to serve in at least two of the divisions and had training in the third.

At the sametime we can reinstate the Draft to include women as the all volunteer forces is too expensive.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-la ... 29092.html

Give us back the citizen military and we won't have these ongoing continuing wars of glory.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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The Warthog was our favorite close air support aircraft in the Sandbox. Whenever we would call in support, we were never quite sure what would show up. If it was A-10s you just knew shit was getting real.

Had B-1Bs come in a few times. Not quite the same but the sheer size scared the hell out of the insurgents...
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Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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Turbo07 wrote:
TrueTexan wrote:Give us back the citizen military and we won't have these ongoing continuing wars of glory.
How long did Vietnam drag on again?
Exactly. If my 8 years taught me anything, it was that we don't want anyone who doesn't want to be there.

But back to the actual subject, so the Army doesn't get the Warthog. Fine. That still leaves the Navy (possibly) and the Marines (definitely). Say what you want about the Harrier, I'll take the A-10 any day. And there's nothing wrong with them working in tandem. I've also always thought that they really should explore a smaller caliber nose cannon. 20mm or even .50 caliber. Think of the ammo capacity then. And when you're only taking on personnel and/or soft targets, 30mm is kinda like whitetail hunting with a .460.

Now if I can just get the Joint Chiefs on the phone...
If liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory. - Mickey Kaus, The New Republic

Re: Save the Warthog!!!

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MayhemVI wrote:
Turbo07 wrote:
TrueTexan wrote:Give us back the citizen military and we won't have these ongoing continuing wars of glory.
How long did Vietnam drag on again?
Exactly. If my 8 years taught me anything, it was that we don't want anyone who doesn't want to be there.

But back to the actual subject, so the Army doesn't get the Warthog. Fine. That still leaves the Navy (possibly) and the Marines (definitely). Say what you want about the Harrier, I'll take the A-10 any day. And there's nothing wrong with them working in tandem. I've also always thought that they really should explore a smaller caliber nose cannon. 20mm or even .50 caliber. Think of the ammo capacity then. And when you're only taking on personnel and/or soft targets, 30mm is kinda like whitetail hunting with a .460.

Now if I can just get the Joint Chiefs on the phone...
I am working down the river from Patuxent NAS. Where they test planes. There has been a pair of A-10's "playing" for the last couple weeks. My jobsite is on the path in for them when they fly. Its neat to see what they have actually in flight including the F-35's.
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