First off, it's one these: http://www.itwredhead.com/product.php?T ... e-Anchor-9

I am dead-certain I did not drill deep enough for the anchor to wedge itself into the hole. The problem now is that is too deep to pull out and not deep enough for me to properly thread a nut on to it to secure. The bolt is also too loose to secure the nut with it spinning with the bolt as I try to tighten it down

I've spent the morning researching all over the internet and have come to conclusion the only remedy is to take a dremel wheel and cut it down to the concrete/move/reseat/retry.

If there is any other way to fix this I'd be eternally grateful. I've already got 2/4 bolts seated and bolted down and would strongly prefer not using the nuclear option.

Thanks in advance.

Can you move the safe off of the anchor? If you can, then thread a nut on it and tighten, it should pull up enough to be usable.

Also, impact wrenches do a wonderful job on tightening wedge style anchors.

Mohead wrote:Can you move the safe off of the anchor? If you can, then thread a nut on it and tighten, it should pull up enough to be usable.

I should add that I think the top 2-3 threads on the bolts are most likely borked due me trying to hammer the anchor home.

My current plan of attack is to dremel off the marred threads and try the bolts again. From what you are saying, that might actually work.

Is the top too deformed to back off the nut completely? Regardless, I'd try giving it a couple of sound taps with a hammer to re-seat, then try tightening again. The threads on those are usually agreeable, and I've seldom had a problem with the anchor spinning with the nut; If it is otherwise deep enough to bite, and the problem is with the spinning of the anchor - and if you can back the nut off - I would jam slender pieces of wood alongside the anchor to keep it from spinning. You don't need much - a toothpick would work well for this, or a shaving off the side of a paint stick. Tap in the toothpick/wood splinter along side the anchor to jam it in place, then re-try the nut.

Good luck!

P.S. Those anchors are generally excellent - if you've already got two firmly planted in thick and sound concrete, it's likely that the bottom of the safe will rip out before the anchors give way if the anchors are properly sized.

atxgunguy wrote:

Mohead wrote:Can you move the safe off of the anchor? If you can, then thread a nut on it and tighten, it should pull up enough to be usable.

I should add that I think the top 2-3 threads on the bolts are most likely borked due me trying to hammer the anchor home.

My current plan of attack is to dremel off the marred threads and try the bolts again. From what you are saying, that might actually work.

If the threads are bunged up, that would account for the anchor spinning. Generally, you want to thread on the nut just below the top of the anchor before tapping the anchor in the hole with these.

I do not fully understand the situation but can you inject epoxy into the hole around the anchor?

Wow, lots of good responses. I'll try and consolidate my own below:

Bacchus wrote:Is the top too deformed to back off the nut completely? Regardless, I'd try giving it a couple of sound taps with a hammer to re-seat, then try tightening again. The threads on those are usually agreeable, and I've seldom had a problem with the anchor spinning with the nut; If it is otherwise deep enough to bite, and the problem is with the spinning of the anchor - and if you can back the nut off - I would jam slender pieces of wood alongside the anchor to keep it from spinning. You don't need much - a toothpick would work well for this, or a shaving off the side of a paint stick. Tap in the toothpick/wood splinter along side the anchor to jam it in place, then re-try the nut.

The nuts are off, thanks to some CLP. I have tapped them about as much as I'd like to without completely destroying the bolt head, so your toothpick/paint stick (damn, I had one of those around and should have thought of that!) method may be viable.

Bacchus wrote:If the threads are bunged up, that would account for the anchor spinning. Generally, you want to thread on the nut just below the top of the anchor before tapping the anchor in the hole with these.

Wish the instructions would have told me that!

Bucolic wrote:I do not fully understand the situation but can you inject epoxy into the hole around the anchor?

Possibly. I can remove the washer sitting over the exposed bolt, leaving 1mm or so of space around the anchor. Which epoxy would you recommend?

atxgunguy wrote:Wow, lots of good responses. I'll try and consolidate my own below:

Bacchus wrote:Is the top too deformed to back off the nut completely? Regardless, I'd try giving it a couple of sound taps with a hammer to re-seat, then try tightening again. The threads on those are usually agreeable, and I've seldom had a problem with the anchor spinning with the nut; If it is otherwise deep enough to bite, and the problem is with the spinning of the anchor - and if you can back the nut off - I would jam slender pieces of wood alongside the anchor to keep it from spinning. You don't need much - a toothpick would work well for this, or a shaving off the side of a paint stick. Tap in the toothpick/wood splinter along side the anchor to jam it in place, then re-try the nut.

The nuts are off, thanks to some CLP. I have tapped them here to Christmas, so your toothpick/paint stick (damn, I had one of those around and should have thought of that!) method may be viable.

Bacchus wrote:If the threads are bunged up, that would account for the anchor spinning. Generally, you want to thread on the nut just below the top of the anchor before tapping the anchor in the hole with these.

Wish the instructions would have told me that!

Bucolic wrote:I do not fully understand the situation but can you inject epoxy into the hole around the anchor?

Possibly. I can remove the washer sitting over the exposed bolt, leaving 1mm or so of space around the anchor. Which epoxy would you recommend?

Good news about getting the nut off. I don't remember you mentioning the actual depth of the hole... Depending on the size of the anchor (I use the size that requires a 1/2" hole), if the hole is too shallow, then getting the anchor set may be moot. The reason is that these anchors are incredibly effective; if the hole is too shallow, the top of the hole will simply chip out if enough leverage is applied. So, while the anchor may feel secure, the concrete around it won't survive a 3 foot crowbar. (but you've got those other two anchors...)

If threads are the issue below the nut (between the nut and the surface of the safe), you can try adding a washer or two (or three) to build some space between the nut and the bad threads, allowing enough space for the anchor to move up against the jam ring.

I learned the hard way about putting the nut on first, so don't feel bad. Also, the hammering part is only to get the anchor to the bottom of the hole- it has no effect on the actual 'anchoring' part. That's the job of that little ring at the bottom of the anchor that rides on the flared end. It's the turning of the nut, drawing the anchor up and jamming the little ring against the sides of the hole that does the anchoring.

When properly sized, and when in sound concrete, you can hang a truck from one of these. I wouldn't feel bad, personally, if I got three out of four.

Bacchus wrote: Good news about getting the nut off. I don't remember you mentioning the actual depth of the hole... Depending on the size of the anchor (I use the size that requires a 1/2" hole), if the hole is too shallow, then getting the anchor set may be moot. The reason is that these anchors are incredibly effective; if the hole is too shallow, the top of the hole will simply chip out if enough leverage is applied. So, while the anchor may feel secure, the concrete around it won't survive a 3 foot crowbar. (but you've got those other two anchors...)

If threads are the issue below the nut (between the nut and the surface of the safe), you can try adding a washer or two (or three) to build some space between the nut and the bad threads, allowing enough space for the anchor to move up against the jam ring.

I learned the hard way about putting the nut on first, so don't feel bad. Also, the hammering part is only to get the anchor to the bottom of the hole- it has no effect on the actual 'anchoring' part. That's the job of that little ring at the bottom of the anchor that rides on the flared end. It's the turning of the nut, drawing the anchor up and jamming the little ring against the sides of the hole that does the anchoring.

When properly sized, and when in sound concrete, you can hang a truck from one of these. I wouldn't feel bad, personally, if I got three out of four.

The two bolts (the O's) I have all the way in are catercorner to each other, so I guess that going for me if anything.

O__________X


X__________O

Good to know it's the not the hammering that activates the anchor. I intentionally went longer than usual (3" rather than 2" bolts), so I think dremel-ing off the marred top bits (it's maybe a 1/4 inch of the total length) won't matter too much in terms of anchoring ability.

I'll try the toothpick method this evening and report back, but it's very relieving to know that two anchors are most likely already overkill.

OK, last bit: If the hole really is just too shallow overall for the thing to bite, using stacks of washers under the nut should effectively pull it out, so long as it will thread without the anchor spinning. So, put on some washers, tighten the nut; take off the nut, put on more washers, then the nut, and tighten more; repeat. So long as you can turn the nut without spinning the anchor, it'll either bite, or will pull out eventually.

Mohead is exactly right about it being better to move the safe off, if you can do it safely. (hey, there's a pun there!) If it's a stack-on style locked cabinet, go for it; if it's as heavy as my soapstone wood stove, forget it. If you can lift off the cabinet without damaging the threads of the existing anchors, it would be helpful to have some room to work, especially if you need to drill more depth in the hole. Once set, those anchors are in for life, so don't worry about backing the nut off and then re-tightening later.

Best luck!

This is a good thread. Mine anchors through the floor. In the basement I put a Vicegrip on the head then then zip tied it to a nail, then went upstairs and tightened nut above. Four times--only one Vicegrip...

CDFingers

atxgunguy wrote:

Bacchus wrote: Good news about getting the nut off. I don't remember you mentioning the actual depth of the hole... Depending on the size of the anchor (I use the size that requires a 1/2" hole), if the hole is too shallow, then getting the anchor set may be moot. The reason is that these anchors are incredibly effective; if the hole is too shallow, the top of the hole will simply chip out if enough leverage is applied. So, while the anchor may feel secure, the concrete around it won't survive a 3 foot crowbar. (but you've got those other two anchors...)

If threads are the issue below the nut (between the nut and the surface of the safe), you can try adding a washer or two (or three) to build some space between the nut and the bad threads, allowing enough space for the anchor to move up against the jam ring.

I learned the hard way about putting the nut on first, so don't feel bad. Also, the hammering part is only to get the anchor to the bottom of the hole- it has no effect on the actual 'anchoring' part. That's the job of that little ring at the bottom of the anchor that rides on the flared end. It's the turning of the nut, drawing the anchor up and jamming the little ring against the sides of the hole that does the anchoring.

When properly sized, and when in sound concrete, you can hang a truck from one of these. I wouldn't feel bad, personally, if I got three out of four.

The two bolts (the O's) I have all the way in are catercorner to each other, so I guess that going for me if anything.

O__________X


X__________O

Good to know it's the not the hammering that activates the anchor. I intentionally went longer than usual (3" rather than 2" bolts), so I think dremel-ing off the marred top bits (it's maybe a 1/4 inch of the total length) won't matter too much in terms of anchoring ability.

I'll try the toothpick method this evening and report back, but it's very relieving to know that two anchors are most likely already overkill.

Good thing about the longer anchors in this case. When using 3" anchors, you'll want about 2 1/4" of that in the hole, so when you tap the thing in, the nut will seat against the washer firmly against what you are anchoring, and only about 1/8" or so of the anchor protruding from the top of the nut, allowing you to smack it with the hammer without disturbing the nut. The top of the anchor is usually tapered ever so slightly to allow for a bit of mushrooming at the top while still allowing the nut to back off without getting stuck.

To get the correct depth of the hole with that masonry bit, I use a couple of wraps of sacrificial painter's tape around the shank of the bit telling when to stop drilling. (when the tape gets to the surface of the concrete, stop drilling) I'd also recommend getting the best masonry bit you can, if you've got other projects. I use Bosch SDS bits with my kit. It's astonishing how much better a good bit goes through concrete vs. cheap bits; it's really much more like drilling through wood.

Again, good luck!

Bacchus wrote:OK, last bit: If the hole really is just too shallow overall for the thing to bite, using stacks of washers under the nut should effectively pull it out, so long as it will thread without the anchor spinning. So, put on some washers, tighten the nut; take off the nut, put on more washers, then the nut, and tighten more; repeat. So long as you can turn the nut without spinning the anchor, it'll either bite, or will pull out eventually.

Mohead is exactly right about it being better to move the safe off, if you can do it safely. (hey, there's a pun there!) If it's a stack-on style locked cabinet, go for it; if it's as heavy as my soapstone wood stove, forget it. If you can lift off the cabinet without damaging the threads of the existing anchors, it would be helpful to have some room to work, especially if you need to drill more depth in the hole. Once set, those anchors are in for life, so don't worry about backing the nut off and then re-tightening later.

Best luck!

I think the marred bolt head has a lot to do with the overall threading issues. It's most likely over-torquing the whole assembly and causing the anchor to spin.

I'm also thinking that filing off the the marred threads might also work in light of bringing a dremel into play.

Step 1: Toothpick/wood-jam the bolt so the nut will travel
Step 2: File the marred bolt heads
Step 3: Dremel off the bad bits
Step 4: Well, crap...I'll be moving the whole production and dremeling the dead anchors flush.


That said, are there merits to other types of anchors? "Lag Shields" and Concrete Screw Anchors seem to be viable, easier alternatives.

Bacchus wrote:I'd also recommend getting the best masonry bit you can, if you've got other projects. I use Bosch SDS bits with my kit. It's astonishing how much better a good bit goes through concrete vs. cheap bits; it's really much more like drilling through wood.

Again, good luck!

Couldn't agree with you more on the right bits. I've got a Makita hammer drill and use the SDS bits. It's like butter and it's remarkable how much less time you spend messing with it.

CDFingers wrote:This is a good thread. Mine anchors through the floor. In the basement I put a Vicegrip on the head then then zip tied it to a nail, then went upstairs and tightened nut above. Four times--only one Vicegrip...

CDFingers

The zip tie is a great idea. Working alone, one really gets to explore innovative solutions and I always like getting good ideas from others.

For me, I figure if someone can defeat my anchoring system by sawing out a section of wall and taking some foundation slab with them, they're welcome to what's inside the safe.

Bacchus wrote: Good thing about the longer anchors in this case. When using 3" anchors, you'll want about 2 1/4" of that in the hole, so when you tap the thing in, the nut will seat against the washer firmly against what you are anchoring, and only about 1/8" or so of the anchor protruding from the top of the nut, allowing you to smack it with the hammer without disturbing the nut. The top of the anchor is usually tapered ever so slightly to allow for a bit of mushrooming at the top while still allowing the nut to back off without getting stuck.

To get the correct depth of the hole with that masonry bit, I use a couple of wraps of sacrificial painter's tape around the shank of the bit telling when to stop drilling. (when the tape gets to the surface of the concrete, stop drilling) I'd also recommend getting the best masonry bit you can, if you've got other projects. I use Bosch SDS bits with my kit. It's astonishing how much better a good bit goes through concrete vs. cheap bits; it's really much more like drilling through wood.

I use Bosch for the reasons you stated. I also thought I had correct depth on all four, clearly that was not the case.

FWIW, the safe has remained unharmed through the entire install, so if I have to go the reposition route, it'll be just fine. I gotta learn some patience, morseo when the term "permanently installed" is being used.

If you've got three of those bolts in, I seriously wouldn't worry about a fourth-

http://www.itwredhead.com/pdfs/submitta ... ndix_B.pdf

shinzen wrote:

Bacchus wrote:I'd also recommend getting the best masonry bit you can, if you've got other projects. I use Bosch SDS bits with my kit. It's astonishing how much better a good bit goes through concrete vs. cheap bits; it's really much more like drilling through wood.

Again, good luck!

Couldn't agree with you more on the right bits. I've got a Makita hammer drill and use the SDS bits. It's like butter and it's remarkable how much less time you spend messing with it.

I've got a 21-year old German-made Milwaukee roto-hammer with interchangeable standard chuck and SDS, selectable between drill only, hammer drill, and hammer only. F-ing burly. I used to be in trades, and good tools meant less time on the job, better work, less fatigue, and fewer injuries. Good tools come at a price, but they're a pleasure to use when you can get 'em. Fortunately, local equipment rental places usually stock the good stuff because they last longer, and that's really cost effective if you don't need them all the time.

Bacchus wrote:
I've got a 21-year old German-made Milwaukee roto-hammer with interchangeable standard chuck and SDS, selectable between drill only, hammer drill, and hammer only. F-ing burly. I used to be in trades, and good tools meant less time on the job, better work, less fatigue, and fewer injuries. Good tools come at a price, but they're a pleasure to use when you can get 'em. Fortunately, local equipment rental places usually stock the good stuff because they last longer, and that's really cost effective if you don't need them all the time.

Yup. For better or worse, our local home deficit doesn't do rentals- and the rental place isn't open on the weekend, so I wind up buying more stuff than I probably need. My pops was in various trades over the years as well so I learned that lesson on buying good tools. To be fair though, all the tools I've bought I've needed several times at least, so it's been worth it.

shinzen wrote:If you've got three of those bolts in, I seriously wouldn't worry about a fourth-

http://www.itwredhead.com/pdfs/submitta ... ndix_B.pdf

Also promising!

I've managed to get through this with my tried-true Dewalt 20V.

atxgunguy wrote:

Bacchus wrote: Good thing about the longer anchors in this case. When using 3" anchors, you'll want about 2 1/4" of that in the hole, so when you tap the thing in, the nut will seat against the washer firmly against what you are anchoring, and only about 1/8" or so of the anchor protruding from the top of the nut, allowing you to smack it with the hammer without disturbing the nut. The top of the anchor is usually tapered ever so slightly to allow for a bit of mushrooming at the top while still allowing the nut to back off without getting stuck.

To get the correct depth of the hole with that masonry bit, I use a couple of wraps of sacrificial painter's tape around the shank of the bit telling when to stop drilling. (when the tape gets to the surface of the concrete, stop drilling) I'd also recommend getting the best masonry bit you can, if you've got other projects. I use Bosch SDS bits with my kit. It's astonishing how much better a good bit goes through concrete vs. cheap bits; it's really much more like drilling through wood.

I use Bosch for the reasons you stated. I also thought I had correct depth on all four, clearly that was not the case.

FWIW, the safe has remained unharmed through the entire install, so if I have to go the reposition route, it'll be just fine. I gotta learn some patience, morseo when the term "permanently installed" is being used.

In my youth, my answer to most things would be 'bigger hammer.' I guess I still use that method for some things, but I've found that patience yields a better result more often than not -though not nearly so satisfying.

Good that the safe is unharmed - that's the main thing. In regards to the lag shield/bolt combo: I'd stick with what you have, as they're far better anchors. The lag option would work, but you'd get less hold. If it's only one out the three? Go for it.

Shinzen: Great link to the anchor specs! Did I say those can hang a truck? I meant house.

shinzen wrote:

Bacchus wrote:
I've got a 21-year old German-made Milwaukee roto-hammer with interchangeable standard chuck and SDS, selectable between drill only, hammer drill, and hammer only. F-ing burly. I used to be in trades, and good tools meant less time on the job, better work, less fatigue, and fewer injuries. Good tools come at a price, but they're a pleasure to use when you can get 'em. Fortunately, local equipment rental places usually stock the good stuff because they last longer, and that's really cost effective if you don't need them all the time.

... buying more stuff than I probably need.

Nonsense! I treat tools the same way I do firearms: the definition of need is infinitely variable.

atxgunguy wrote: I think the marred bolt head has a lot to do with the overall threading issues. It's most likely over-torquing the whole assembly and causing the anchor to spin.

I'm also thinking that filing off the the marred threads might also work in light of bringing a dremel into play.

Step 1: Toothpick/wood-jam the bolt so the nut will travel
Step 2: File the marred bolt heads
Step 3: Dremel off the bad bits
Step 4: Well, crap...I'll be moving the whole production and dremeling the dead anchors flush.
.

Bolt number three surrendered with the toothpick method...mostly. It's not going anywhere. Number four is dead to rights. It might take a nut, but then again....it's been dremeled to not be an issue any more. That's TBD tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the advice.

If you haven't killed it yet try this...

Use a Dremel to cut slot cross-wise on the top of the bolt big enough to get in a screwdriver. Hold the screwdriver (and bolt) steady while you crank down the nut and eventually things should lock down.