http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/12/22/ ... nts-arrest

The kid was drawing weapons. Drawing as in using an instrument to make marks on a surface, not drawing as in pulling out of a holster. In my book, this does not rise to the level of probable cause. How is this not a violation of the 4th amendment? I've read more than one report on this case. None of them mention anything rising to the level of probable cause.

"But, lemur, they've found chemicals that when mixed together could make explosives and electronic components in his house!"

First, a violation of civil rights is still a violation of civil rights even when it uncovers evidence of crime.

Second, as the insightful folks at Slashdot point out, everybody has chemicals that when mixed together could make explosives. And electronic components? Really? I must be a terrorist, what with my home made morse code trainer. I mean I could snip the wires going to the speaker and use it as a detonator, an incredibly badly designed detonator, but it could do the job.

There's still a fourth amendment?

Fukshot wrote:There's still a fourth amendment?

nope, the patriot act and ndaa took care of that minor detail.

Not much information there, really. I suspect there were a great many things between staff seeing the disturbing drawings and the decision to take the kid into custody that are not included in this snippet of a story.

For example, there's no mention of whether the search of his home was done with consent or a warrant - a pretty significant element, that.

If it turns out that all they had was a drawing of a weapon and nothing more then entered the home unlawfully, I'll get up on my hind legs and woof, too. (On the other hand, if the drawing included cartridges with the names of teachers, administrators, and other students on them, that might be reasonably expected to shake folks up a little these days.)

Until then, I'll withhold judgement.

I'm not surprised that this happened, and I suspect it was a case of severe over-reacting. I hear of cases like this all the time. For instance, a young lady in Florida (straight-A student) brought a butter knife to school to spread food on her bread. She was expelled for having a dangerous weapon.

My own experience:

I used to have a business repairing machine tools, and wore a special knife which was perfect for cleaning off the ways of the machine (the smooth sliding surfaces), which always were covered with a layer of gunk and shavings. I had a contract with the school system in the next county to maintain their tools on a couple of campuses.

One day someone noticed the knife and called the cops. The school went into a panic... especially when I opened my tool case full of nice pointy objects. I had to argue with them about it - they didn't want those nice sharp objects on the campus, even though their shop was already full of them (it was an adult school btw). That was the last time I was allowed on the campus and they dropped the contract - told me I was lucky to not go to jail.

I wonder what shape their machines are in now?
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OH... and when I was in high school, I DID bring a gun to school one time. I own a Carcano - pre WWII and so better-made than the one used to shoot Kennedy, and a larger caliber than that one (7.35 instead of 6.5), but otherwise very similar. Since we were talking about Kennedy's assassination, I volunteered to bring the gun to school (with the knowledge and permission of the principal as well the teacher, who was enthusiastic). Now, I was the school pariah, partially because I was a sportsman and partially because I cannot abide the smell of pot - the odor alone makes me violently ill and being around it causes me to have trouble breathing. I'm also fat (medical problems including a radiation-burned thyroid) and not handsome at all. Needless to say I wasn't popular in the least.

When I brought the rifle into the classroom (we'd kept it in the school safe until that time), all of the kids - all of whom had bullied me at one time or another - sank in their seats and had a trapped-rat look on their faces. Then the teacher explained why I'd brought it to school (and the kids lightened up) and we talked about the assassination.

That was the last time they ever made fun of me or acted like bullies, btw. (I was a junior at the time.) I never was popular or accepted, but at least the vicious stuff stopped.

The moral of the stories - people do severely over-react all the time, and if they have no idea or experience with guns and so on... they are even more prone to do so. Usually it's the innocent who get punished after the guilty (in this case the shooter in Connecticut) have done the deed.

(Oh, and they'd have a massive panic at the things I own today... I work in an archaeology lab and have chemicals there like concentrated nitric acid and concentrated hydrogen peroxide, and I'm an amateur radio operator who builds stuff and likes to mess around with inventions...)

lemur wrote:http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/12/22/ ... nts-arrest

The kid was drawing weapons. Drawing as in using an instrument to make marks on a surface, not drawing as in pulling out of a holster. In my book, this does not rise to the level of probable cause. How is this not a violation of the 4th amendment? I've read more than one report on this case. None of them mention anything rising to the level of probable cause.

Did the cops happen to be all wearing Jack Boots and perhaps Goose Step their way into the kids house?

Walkaway wrote:OH... and when I was in high school, I DID bring a gun to school one time. I own a Carcano - pre WWII and so better-made than the one used to shoot Kennedy, and a larger caliber than that one (7.35 instead of 6.5), but otherwise very similar. Since we were talking about Kennedy's assassination, I volunteered to bring the gun to school (with the knowledge and permission of the principal as well the teacher, who was enthusiastic). Now, I was the school pariah, partially because I was a sportsman and partially because I cannot abide the smell of pot - the odor alone makes me violently ill and being around it causes me to have trouble breathing. I'm also fat (medical problems including a radiation-burned thyroid) and not handsome at all. Needless to say I wasn't popular in the least.

When I brought the rifle into the classroom (we'd kept it in the school safe until that time), all of the kids - all of whom had bullied me at one time or another - sank in their seats and had a trapped-rat look on their faces. Then the teacher explained why I'd brought it to school (and the kids lightened up) and we talked about the assassination.

That was the last time they ever made fun of me or acted like bullies, btw. (I was a junior at the time.) I never was popular or accepted, but at least the vicious stuff stopped.

The moral of the stories - people do severely over-react all the time, and if they have no idea or experience with guns and so on... they are even more prone to do so. Usually it's the innocent who get punished after the guilty (in this case the shooter in Connecticut) have done the deed.

Can you imagine the shitfest that would occur today if anyone even suggested do that?

Walkaway wrote:I'm also fat (medical problems including a radiation-burned thyroid)

I'm sure you get a lot of shit about that. There's a long post I have yet to write about folks who think they know better than those afflicted with some illness what the "obvious" cure for this illness is. "Just exercise!" Or my favorite: "If I've been able to shed 50 pounds, lower my cholesterol, control my gout, clear my psoriasis, cure my allergies just by changing my diet, anybody can!" Sure, lady! I'm acutely aware how lucky I am that most of my afflictions are not visible. Typically, if I end up at the receiving end of uninformed advice that's because I misjudged who I was talking to and I opened my yap.

I noticed a sudden plethora of those stupid " ( blank) bans guns on these premises" all over local businesses.
Like someone crazy enough to commit mass murder would see that sign, say to himself " Well, I can't go in there!", turn on his heel, and go home.

comedian wrote:I noticed a sudden plethora of those stupid " ( blank) bans guns on these premises" all over local businesses.
Like someone crazy enough to commit mass murder would see that sign, say to himself " Well, I can't go in there!", turn on his heel, and go home.

Right? It's ridiculous to think that a simple sign, or even a law (or 50) being on the books will do one actual thing to stop a determined person with nothing to lose from committing violence. Knife violence in the UK and China anyone? I'm pretty sure that most schools, movie theatres, and even military bases have no unauthorized gun possession rules in place. That doesn't seem to have helped much, and in much the same way, neither do restraining orders on their own save lives. I'm not saying that there are no possible recourses through legislation that could help some with random violence (Mental Health, I'm looking at you), but simply banning guns, either in specific locations or in a broader general ban, will continue to be as ineffective as it has been thusfar.

I used to draw pictures of guns in school; all the time, in fact. I also drew pictures of cars that I know for a fact weren't street legal. Unless there are details that come out that specifically point to some kind of plan, instability, or threats, this is being severely overblown. It's also not the first time that a kid has been made to look like an evil madman for drawing a picture of a gun. I've heard of these occasionally for at least several years now. It's sad, and certainly not right. The SCOTUS has said that children do not give up their constitutional rights just because they enter the school doors. 1st, 4th, maybe even 5th amendments (if the child were coerced into giving permission to search their home) would appear to have been bypassed.

Understanding that the recent spate of in-school violence has everyone emotionally charged these days, we must maintain some semblance of rationality. There is far too much 'disaster capitalism' at play recently, and frankly, I think it should be reeled in quickly.

Zero tolerance rules are a cop out. They are zero thinking rules that allow teachers and administrators to not have to actually make case-by-case decisions.

goalie wrote:Zero tolerance rules are a cop out. They are zero thinking rules that allow teachers and administrators to not have to actually make case-by-case decisions.

I remember reading about a kid in a "zero tolerance" school getting suspended for having a PLASTIC KNIFE, of all things, in his lunch, along with a plastic fork and plastic spoon. His parents were fit to be tied because of it... as I remember he got caught because he used it to spread something on his sandwich (like the girl with the butter knife). His mom had put it in for him as part of his regular utensils.

What makes me laugh is that from when I was about 10 years old (maybe younger), I've carried a pocketknife. It used to be one of those "Swiss Army" knives with a bunch of attachments, now it's a multitool which gets used all the time. Gun ownership, like knife ownership, doesn't mean you're going to use it to hurt someone.

lemur wrote:

Walkaway wrote:I'm also fat (medical problems including a radiation-burned thyroid)

I'm sure you get a lot of shit about that. There's a long post I have yet to write about folks who think they know better than those afflicted with some illness what the "obvious" cure for this illness is. "Just exercise!" Or my favorite: "If I've been able to shed 50 pounds, lower my cholesterol, control my gout, clear my psoriasis, cure my allergies just by changing my diet, anybody can!" Sure, lady! I'm acutely aware how lucky I am that most of my afflictions are not visible. Typically, if I end up at the receiving end of uninformed advice that's because I misjudged who I was talking to and I opened my yap.

Please everyone excuse getting a bit OT...

I get them too. Usually "You need to exercise - push back from the table!" or "If you'd go on a _____ diet, you'd do a lot better!". I respond "Have you ever heard of medically caused obesity? I've lost almost 140 pounds since the doctors finally listened to me and started providing medicines that worked. I've tried all of the diets - they only made me sick and weak."

The amazing thing is that even then, once in a while someone will keep pushing. Then I really tell them off. Or almost as aggravating, they'll confront you if you're eating out, and are outraged because you're eating a balanced meal rather than grazing on a dry lettuce leaf with a tiny side of lowfat cottage cheese.

Walkaway wrote: Please everyone excuse getting a bit OT...

No problem here. I'm the one who derailed the thread.