I think it was brilliant strategy. They know they can't stop whatever is coming, but they can stir things up to benefit their supporting industry in the short term. Anything more conciliatory would have lost them some of their loudest and stupidest supporters, who might have gone on to create an alternative to the NRA that had real momentum. Being the only game in town is a critical piece of their power. The fact that they are the only major national gun rights advocacy organization keeps their ranks full of people who don't actually support the positions the NRA advocates.

The more I think about it, this was perfect political chess for their primary concerns: Money for the industry and the power of their organization. Who, a few weeks ago, would have thought that our recent sales bubbles could be surpassed? Look what is happening now.

What's the next step in this game? I dunno, but they have done the best they could so far.

Hey Milsurp, there's 3 or 4 threads going right now on this press conference including one specific to the issue you just raised here. Let's try to have them not be all the same conversation.

He had me until he threw video games under the bus. The NSSF has been working very hard to ensure that the newest generation will want modern rifles. Oops.

Redbird wrote:

ProD wrote:Do you know something about the "course" that the rest of us don't ? NRA courses are the most widely accepted methods in states to receive a concealed carry license. So please tell us what we don't know, but you do.

In the course my wife and I took we were the only ones who could actually put holes in the targets during the final test. EVERY other person in our group - 9 of 'em, IIRC - had a pristine sheet of paper after firing 5 or 6 rounds. The NRA instructor said, and I quote: "I don't care if you hit the wall or the ceiling, if it's a good tight grouping, I'm happy." And everyone in that class got their NRA certificate afterwards.

When I shared this story on another board, I suggested that this was irresponsible at best, homicidal at worst. And the wingnut loonies immediately piled on to suggest that I was a fucking douchebag liberal who didn't know shit. Only ONE person there agreed that the NRA instructor was wrong for signing off on airball shots. The rest were just thrilled that nine more guns were being carried concealed, and that was all that mattered. One guy even flamed me for bragging about what great shots my wife and I were - totally not my point.

And that's how I came to find LGC as an oasis in the fiery desert.

Point here is that if the NRA is gonna train security forces for every K-26 in the land, there are gonna be unethical, irresponsible instructors like the one I had. Lots of them. And a whole lot of "security" volunteers will be shooting everything but a shooter if one comes through the door.

Sorry, ProD. You know I have no specifics so for that I apologize. However I won't apologize for the tone or the sentiment of it.
Actually my experience is more like Redbirds then yours or Inquisitors is seems. My safety class was about 8 hours on a Sunday held in the back room of one of my areas better gun shops. Could have been compressed into 4 hours except for all the anti government BS and birther theory discussion. My class consisted of myself, an obsessive first timer gun fanatic who reminded me of Tackelberry from Police Academy, two woman who never fired a gun before and two guys who wanted to take up hunting. After lecture and handling a few empty handguns "for familiarity" we were done. No one had to qualify at any range but everyone was pretty sure the liberals were coming for our guns. We got our certificates and left.

ErikO wrote:He had me until he threw video games under the bus. The NSSF has been working very hard to ensure that the newest generation will want modern rifles. Oops.

Sorry, dude, but video games are part of the problem. Maybe not for normal people, but for those on the edge, they're just feeding their delusions.

I know you like 'em, and I hear you want to develop them.

But nobody who knows anything about abnormal psychology can possibly imagine that first-person shooters don't exacerbate issues that certain psychoses and neuroses carry with them.

If that's what you want to do for a living fine; but don't kid yourself about the consequences to a small segment of society. It's no worse than wanting to work in in a brewery or distillery pr winery or the gambling industry or any one of a number of industries where some folks will use the product in a harmful way.

But really--- get out of denial.

JoeW1911 wrote:
Actually my experience is more like Redbirds then yours or Inquisitors is seems. My safety class was about 8 hours on a Sunday held in the back room of one of my areas better gun shops. Could have been compressed into 4 hours except for all the anti government BS and birther theory discussion. My class consisted of myself, an obsessive first timer gun fanatic who reminded me of Tackelberry from Police Academy, two woman who never fired a gun before and two guys who wanted to take up hunting. After lecture and handling a few empty handguns "for familiarity" we were done. No one had to qualify at any range but everyone was pretty sure the liberals were coming for our guns. We got our certificates and left.

Wow, that doesn't sound good. I took my class back when I lived in FL. It was put on by the Charlotte County Sheriff's Office at their facility and they did a great job. A good classroom portion by a sworn officer and we shot a lot, the instructor working with all of us. It was very well done. When I moved back to Mass. 18 or so years ago, they accepted the course I took in FL. Have had my LTC ever since.

It's like everything else... it depends on the instructor. I learned to fly an airplane with guys who were just in it to get their hours in to fly for the airlines and knew squat about really flying airplanes.

Then I fell in with 2 things. First was the top-rated flight instructor in the country in unusual attitudes and spin recovery. He taught me to take charge of the damn airplane instead of letting it fly me. And Microsoft Flight Simulator--- actually Combat Flight Simulator, where I was compelled to find out what worked--- and didn't work--- on their very fine computer model. When I'd discover something in the sim, I'd take it out and try it on the real plane. What do you know? It WORKED!

But the best thing was Rich (you pilots know the last name now), the CFI. This guy can say five words that are worth 500 from one of the young dudes passing through.

I came out feeling like the airplane wings were attached to my own shoulders.

Hundreds of hours of practice helped, too. And when things went wrong, walking away or sitting around in the air thinking about it.

Same thing applied to learning to shoot properly. First of all, even if you want to shoot a 9mm, you need a .22 Because there have to be HOURS of "good days and bad days" and "WTF went wrong with that last target?" and thinking about it, and remembering the fundamental rules and then going back to try again. You can't do that at $.25/round.

And then there have been some rather generous NRA instructors / RSOs who've watched what I'm doing and said just one or two words about what they've observed me doing wrong.

So I'm working on "Distinguished Expert" for the Spring...

And I don't pretend that it'd help me all that much in a defensive situation.

Wurble wrote: 1) I'm tired of the video game argument. There have been numerous studies now. All same conclusion: no causality whatsoever.
2) The lack of prosecution of violent crime is true. The only exception is if there is a drug offense along with the violent crime. Worse: many states actually routinely lets violent offenders go free early because of jail overcrowding while keeping locked up the guy who got busted with a bag of weed.
3) Copycats do exist and the media is mostly to blame for them
4) Yes hurricanes. Look what happened with Katrina. Looters everywhere and racist scumbags using the lack of police presence to start shooting anyone with brown skin. So yes, hurricanes!
5) Violent movies? See number 1. No causality.
6) Hell yes the media is at fault. Stop ####ing plastering the killers face and name everywhere. Anyone with a shred of ethical integrity would do their best to minimize mention of the killers name and showing his face.
7) I'm not worried so much about gun bans. This is the first time in a long time I'm relieved we have a Republican House. No ban of anything could possibly pass the House. Any Republican passing gun control will get eliminated in the following primary and they know this. What is so stupid of the Democrats is that even getting such a bill to the floor would be suicide for them. 2014 could wind up being 1996 all over again. When will they learn?!

Thank you Wurble, I concur.

To quote a poster on Reddit:

"The second amendment is necessary to protect ourselves from jackbooted government thugs.

Now would you please hire 100,000 new government employees, give them guns an station them in our schools?"

Banks don't have guards anymore b/c it raised fatalities without doing much to drive down robberies. Militarizing schools isn't going to solve this problem.

Video games, rap videos and movies. Give me a fucking break. This guy is so harmful to our cause it's just insane. He had a real opportunity to lead on this issue and take a serious position, but instead he spouts this bullshit that is purely insane. There have been a number of good ideas on this board alone that could be worked toward that would make a real difference in this and could help the country find a center, but now everyone will be completely entrenched in their existing positions with nothing actually happening.

Fucking ridiculous.

shinzen wrote:Video games, rap videos and movies. Give me a fucking break. This guy is so harmful to our cause it's just insane. He had a real opportunity to lead on this issue and take a serious position, but instead he spouts this bullshit that is purely insane. There have been a number of good ideas on this board alone that could be worked toward that would make a real difference in this and could help the country find a center, but now everyone will be completely entrenched in their existing positions with nothing actually happening.

Fucking ridiculous.

Which is exactly what they want. Entrenchment, and nothing else happening except people panicking about restrictions that may never come to pass, and newly made guns flying off of the shelves. Who benefits? You and me? The average shooter? The country? Hell no. Follow the money. LaPierre did his douchebag dog and pony show, and made the corporations that pull his strings a shit-ton of money.

Wurble wrote:1) I'm tired of the video game argument. There have been numerous studies now. All same conclusion: no causality whatsoever.

These events are actually very, very rare. Their significance derives from their being so horrific, not from their frequency.

Might the number of people moved to commit an attack by a violent video game be so tiny that they escape statistical sampling?

Fukshot wrote:I think it was brilliant strategy. They know they can't stop whatever is coming, but they can stir things up to benefit their supporting industry in the short term. Anything more conciliatory would have lost them some of their loudest and stupidest supporters, who might have gone on to create an alternative to the NRA that had real momentum. Being the only game in town is a critical piece of their power. The fact that they are the only major national gun rights advocacy organization keeps their ranks full of people who don't actually support the positions the NRA advocates.

The more I think about it, this was perfect political chess for their primary concerns: Money for the industry and the power of their organization. Who, a few weeks ago, would have thought that our recent sales bubbles could be surpassed? Look what is happening now.

What's the next step in this game? I dunno, but they have done the best they could so far.

Hey Milsurp, there's 3 or 4 threads going right now on this press conference including one specific to the issue you just raised here. Let's try to have them not be all the same conversation.

interesting take...!?

And here I was thinking that he probably served to drive a fair number of moderate NRA members out the door...I forgot that his interest is not his members.

First sentence: "Public relations experts who have experience working with the gun industry expressed horror on Friday afternoon at the National Rifle Association's response to the Newtown, Conn., shootings." LaPierre has insured that the NRA will continue to hemorrhage.

I never was a big NRA fan, but this is about as bad of a response as could be.

Wayne has been a total disaster since he took over the NRA. At one time, it was a decent, kind of folksy and USEFUL organization. It provided good information on various guns, some very obscure, man very interesting...it gave safety instruction for young shooters and hunters, and general good information for gun enthusiasts of all kinds.

It still does much of that, but it's political/hysterical/bullshit side had eclipsed the good it was founded to do.

It is a damn shame.

mark

rolandson wrote: And here I was thinking that he probably served to drive a fair number of moderate NRA members out the door...I forgot that his interest is not his members.

They keep the (relative) moderates by being the only game in town. Look at gascolator's "I May Join the NRA" thread. Preventing a split is more important in keeping the moderates than making the moderates happy. They keep the moderates with fear and lack of other options. Just like the Democratic party keeps my vote out of my fear and loathing for the Christian Falange. If someone actually got the ball rolling on a viable third party on the left, I would be on that shit in a second.

The reason I hate Feinstein and Brady so much is that they help keep the moderates scared enough to stick with the NRA.

I watched LaPierre's melt down earlier today and just a little while ago, I watched Pierce Morgan also have a melt down from the other side. This would be a great time for the Liberal Gun Club to publically join the conversation and present a carefully crafted and sensible approach addressing the issue of violence --- particularly gun violence -- in America. Don't mention banning gun and don't talk about second amendment rights. Talk about other proactive things like requiring a license before being allowed to purchase a firearm from ANY source ... closing the gun show loophole ... registering all firearms ... talk about expanding the availability of mental health assistance ... talk about firearms training ... talking about the correlation between poverty/joblessness and crime. In other word, hit all the hot button issue but do it gently while radiating concern and empathy for those most concerned about a "weaponized" America.

If this idea sounds interesting to a number of you, I'd also suggest you choose a representative the public will like and identify with,e.g., an attractive young white female paired up with clean cut looking young white guy who also looks fit but not overly muscular and certainly no buzz cuts. In other words, recruit spokes people who have what some might call that "Abercrombie & Fitch" look.

Just some thought, guys. Have a good night (I'm going to bed) and I'm pleased you survived the end-of-the-world. LOL

I think Mark is Professor Abercrombie personified. He is the perfect spokesman, the straight, slightly outdoorsy, gun owning version of Dan Savage. He's even white, not that I agree about that being a requirement.

As a gun geek with a proclivity for old crap, I have to say here that it's Griffin and Howe not Abercrombie and Fitch.

As far as I'm concerned, video games, movies and music are all protected speech. I think the NRA is just trying to deflect attention from themselves and their interests. I doubt that all LaPierre said was in good faith.

what about me?? Add a few dozen pounds and lose some more hair and i would be a dead ringer for Karl Rove!

edit: oh....personality of a fish...yeah, I ain't got that.

Fukshot wrote:I think Mark is Professor Abercrombie personified. He is the perfect spokesman, the straight, slightly outdoorsy, gun owning version of Dan Savage. He's even white, not that I agree about that being a requirement.

As a gun geek with a proclivity for old crap, I have to say here that it's Griffin and Howe not Abercrombie and Fitch.

"the straight, slightly outdoorsy, gun owning version of Dan Savage"

That is the greatest quote about me ever. YAY. Wait, didn't you say Dan Savage was a dick in another thread? hmmmm

I think this is all great and we are definitely working on this, but to do anything but flap our mouths will take a little time. And if all we do is flap our mouths we will look as ignorant as Wayne did.

Libshooter, I agree with you but....

"Talk about other proactive things like requiring a license before being allowed to purchase a firearm from ANY source ... closing the gun show loophole ... registering all firearms ... talk about expanding the availability of mental health assistance ... talk about firearms training ... talking about the correlation between poverty/joblessness and crime. "

Most of those things will freak out the current gun culture as badly as an AWB. If we decide they are good ideas they need to be approached very very carefully. And there are definitely questions of constitutional ability of the feds to regulate this stuff at a state level. We are consulting with a variety of people to make sure we have a well informed opinion/position before we do anything.

rolandson wrote:what about me?? Add a few dozen pounds and lose some more hair and i would be a dead ringer for Karl Rove!

edit: oh....personality of a fish...yeah, I ain't got that.

Are you kidding? Everybody knows you're the enforcer. That's the only thing about you at all like Rove.

Mark, you've got a whole crew of people here who are thinking about the things you aren't. That's what Dan Savage doesn't have to keep him from being a dick.

IMO the media glorification and preoccupation with stylized gun violence perpetuates the culture of depersonalized murder.
I don't care whether it's TV shows, movies, or anything else, as we sew, so shall we reap.

If murder is believed to be cool without consequences, some weak minds apparently think, why not get some, and then look how famous we'll be!
I guess if media violence profit, or you like it, none dare call it promoting murder.

Some limits to free speech have long been recognized as reasonable, the cliche' of yelling fire in a crowded theater, or phoning in a bomb threat come to mind.

The fact is, there have been many studies that positively correlate viewing violence with subsequent violent behavior in children. Here's one: http://bscw-app1.let.ethz.ch/pub/bscw.c ... ehavio.pdf
About the NRA, the joke Not Responsive (to) Anyone isn't too far off, though I thought the 'speech' was one of his better moments. For me NRA went off the rails back in the mid-'80's.

I don't think we can point to one thing, but as a whole all of the things mentioned have an impact. The other 800lb gorilla that folks like Piers Morgan dont discuss is the effect that our international actions have on things here at home.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/06 ... port-says/. 132,000 civilians killed in the war on terror. How does tha not impact our blood lust? It demonstrate to the sick and demented in this country that life is cheap. People want to ban our semi-autos but don't seem to be concerned when we use advanced technology to wipe out a village.

Also, I would add to this list our failed drug war. The drug war is fueling the gun violence far beyond what one crazy person does, yet we keep trudging down this path.

Fukshot wrote: Mark, you've got a whole crew of people here who are thinking about the things you aren't. That's what Dan Savage doesn't have to keep him from being a dick.

It takes a village, right?

BTW, if we ever need a balding, slightly overweight, "homeless professor"-type, I'm always ready!