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Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

226 by beto
foghorn wrote:Thats a great analogy, and wonderfully put. I work in mental health and anticipate this will be an interesting Monday.
How many of us are in the "closet" about gun ownership with our liberal friends???? I came out last night with friends I have known for over 30 years. (The topic had not come up before) Since I grew up in Newtown the shootings came up. When I told her I was a gun owner she was stunned. (My wife smiled but did not confess she had bought her first firearm. She is still in the "closet") We ended up having an intelligent conversation. She thought anyone could by guns off the internet with no checks etc. I gave her a lot to think about and I could see I was causing her to question some of her assumptions. We have to come out so people can have an alternative picture of gun owners.
As far as guilt about ownership, some of my enthusiasm for the sport did drain after the shooting. Now it is slowly returning recognizing we have problems we must work on as a nation. I was not part on the massacre I, we, can be part of the solution that may prevent others.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Ben Franklin
Beto in wisconsin

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

229 by M4Builder
I can hear the arguments about solutions all around work as I came in. what bothered me though is I can feel the simmering animosity for anyone left of center. It disgusts me knowing that reason is lost to these people.i'm not even here 10 minutes and get told Obama is going to ban guns and it's your fault for voting for him.
All problems can be solved with a copious amount of high explosives.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

230 by shinzen
rolandson wrote:I am a photographer by trade. I photograph stuff for advertising mostly, some fashion but mostly stuff. I am also what is called a 'fine art' photographer ... useless images that make people feel something. My instruments are my cameras.

There are some who use these same instruments for the most despicable obscenity humans can create...child pornography, exploitation photography, animal fighting and even the 'paparazzi'...unbelievable disgust...sub human.

They are not a reflection of me. They do not represent me or what I am. I make no excuses for them. I am not ashamed of myself or what I do just because someone else uses the same instrument that I do to create human degradation.

I enjoy shooting well. I appreciate a well made firearm functioning perfectly. i take pride in putting the little hole exactly where i want it to go on that sheet of paper, many times. I am not ashamed that I find this enjoyable, nor do I need to explain to anyone why I take pleasure poking holes in paper with a variety of firearms that i choose to own. it is nobody's business but mine. I have harmed no one and I will not be made to feel guilty because some other persons lost or misplaced their humanity.

This tragic horrible obscenity that fell upon us this past week is not my fault. I didn't do it, I will not be held accountable for it by anyone simply because someone took an instrument similar to one that I take pride in using responsibly and well, and created horror with it.

^ THIS

I know this is a bit cliche, but I was raised in a very liberal family here in Colorado that hunts and fishes. Have been around guns my whole life and I won't apologize for enjoying them. From the time I was 6 years old I knew what they were and was taught the respect that they need if they are to be around you.

I think perhaps that here in Colorado it's a bit more acceptable to be a liberal gun owner- maybe a thing from out west, but I know that unlike some of my east coast liberal friends, I do not have the same feelings of guilt that some seem to have. Am I sad for this atrocity? Of course. Do I think that sensible reforms could be put into place? Sure. Unlike my friends on the right, I'm open to at least having a conversation about what makes sense.

Will I feel guilty for my hobby? No. Never. I will happily put holes in as many paper targets as I can (and maybe even the occasional beer can), and continue to enjoy this heritage.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

Image

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

231 by lemur
Guilt is not particularly helpful.

Introspection and self-examination, however, (which are not equivalent to "guilt") are necessary. Have there been situations where someone came to me asking for help and my answer was to just "suck it up"? Sometimes "suck it up" is the appropriate answer, but did I send the person away without listening, without knowing that "suck it up" was in fact appropriate in that specific case? Did I exclude and isolate someone who has difficulty being included? Etc.
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. -- MLK

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

232 by Bisbee
Yes, Lemur, guilt is not useful. I also agree that the discomfort of cognitive dissonance that Pr0Life mentioned may be seen as growing pains. And that is very necessary.

People who refuse to put themselves in a position of such difficult reflection really do not grow. As a people, we need desperately to grow and mature. This particular issue is just a doorway.

It is an honor to explore this issue and grow along with all of you.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

233 by Bisbee
Wabatuckian wrote:http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... =1&t=16820

Case is the latest in a spate of school attacks in China in recent years. Min Yingjun, 36, slashed an elderly woman before zoning in on the schoolchildren, police said. No deaths have been reported.

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Friday, December 14, 2012, 1:11 PM

BEIJING — A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.
Thank you, Wabatuckian, for linking that post. It is, I imagine, one of the most damning for the "ban the guns" camp to use and bears deep consideration for the fact that more lethal results occur when people run Amok in society with guns. This attack in China was almost identical with what we saw in Conn yet with completely different results.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

234 by chrisk
Sorry, I have to take issue with this. I'm a school teacher and I'd not only be qualified to carry a firearm at my school I'd be more qualified than a security guard and 99% of the officers on our city's police department. (Probably 100% but I want to give them a little credit.)

Now that I've made my point I'll say that dedicated individuals can be given a thorough training course in a matter of two weeks of 8 hour days. This would not only include the use of firearms but when to shoot and when not to shoot, weapons retention, conflict resolution an a host of other subjects.

By contrast the armed "security guard" training requirement in my state is laughable. It is a 24 hour course and yearly qualifying.

The vast majority of police officers "train" twice a year at most.

Of course you would have to be selective and thorough in the training. It's certainly not impossible.

Chris
wlewisiii wrote:No way would I ever think arming a teacher would be a good idea.

No, I do not think that any teacher or administrator should be armed. As someone upthread mentioned, teachers are not trained to be SWAT officers - all guns in their hands will get you is more victims from the cross fire.

An armed & well trained security guard? That's very differerent, much more expensive & much more likely to have positive effect.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

235 by pgaert
"As someone upthread mentioned, teachers are not trained to be SWAT officers"

To whoever said that, I'm curious... exactly how do you know SWAT officers never retire from the force and become teachers? Or ex-military? Secret service? For that matter, is your view truly that such a level of training is the logical threshold to possess a gun in a school?

I would be curious about the range of motivations among those mass murders who select schools disproportionately as their rampage site of choice. How many have a thing against children, how many know that a school is a great place to become infamous and be talked about for years (since at least Columbine, anyway), and how many are influenced by the certain knowledge that no one in the building will be armed? Of course, they are mostly to weak to face the consequences of their actions, and therefore cannot be asked.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

236 by rolandson
chrisk wrote:Sorry, I have to take issue with this. I'm a school teacher and I'd not only be qualified to carry a firearm at my school I'd be more qualified than a security guard and 99% of the officers on our city's police department. (Probably 100% but I want to give them a little credit.)

Now that I've made my point I'll say that dedicated individuals can be given a thorough training course in a matter of two weeks of 8 hour days. This would not only include the use of firearms but when to shoot and when not to shoot, weapons retention, conflict resolution an a host of other subjects.

By contrast the armed "security guard" training requirement in my state is laughable. It is a 24 hour course and yearly qualifying.

The vast majority of police officers "train" twice a year at most.

Of course you would have to be selective and thorough in the training. It's certainly not impossible.

Chris
don't be sorry, your opinion is as valid as any other.

Personally the thought of arming teachers seems as distasteful to me as arming airline pilots...or more correctly, the thought of having to arm these people is distasteful to me.

but at the same time, if one's right to self defense is a human right, as is often proclaimed...even here, shouldn't that right then extend to all rather than a select few, providing that they meet the necessary criteria?

I don't like that we should be considering arming our teachers but that doesn't mean that the teachers shouldn't have a thought or two about that.

I do not recall when exactly, or what the circumstances were that generated a similar thought process in me...it was while my children were in elementary school so that would put it before Columbine....I had the momentary thought of when we would consider it necessary to send our kids off to school in kevlar. something triggered that but I don't recall what.

My children's high school had a "school resource officer"...a Portland cop. Had an office and everything...a permanent fixture.

this is as much a part of the discussion as everything else and shouldn't, i think, be invalidated because it flies in the face of our collective comfort zones. it isn't pleasing but it is reality.
“People want leadership, and in the absence of genuine leadership they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone.”Aaron Sorkin/Michael J Fox The American President
Subliterate Buffooery of the right...
Literate Ignorance of the left...

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

237 by Fukshot
pgaert wrote:"As someone upthread mentioned, teachers are not trained to be SWAT officers"

To whoever said that, I'm curious... exactly how do you know SWAT officers never retire from the force and become teachers? Or ex-military? Secret service? For that matter, is your view truly that such a level of training is the logical threshold to possess a gun in a school?

I would be curious about the range of motivations among those mass murders who select schools disproportionately as their rampage site of choice. How many have a thing against children, how many know that a school is a great place to become infamous and be talked about for years (since at least Columbine, anyway), and how many are influenced by the certain knowledge that no one in the building will be armed? Of course, they are mostly to weak to face the consequences of their actions, and therefore cannot be asked.
I said it and your hypothetical overlap doesn't invalidate the fact that teachers are not selected to perform jobs other than teaching. I wasn't saying that there is not and will never be overlap. That would be ridiculous. Don't twist my words in to a straw man.

A common reason that schools are targeted is that the shooters are often students or former students at those schools or have other focused animosity towards a person or persons at the school. Arguing that schools are selected because of the lack of defense is looking for a way to make an argument you want to make anyway, not an analysis of what might have happened differently.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

238 by mrb7
rolandson wrote:...but at the same time, if one's right to self defense is a human right, as is often proclaimed..

For an original, and fairly thorough, examination of exactly this topic read John Locke's Second Treatesie of Government. The language and examples are a little archaic to the modern reader. But they're still fairly accessible to an intelligent reader capable of referencing the time shift, so this audience can sort it out pretty easily.

I believe the Kindle edition is free, and if you don't have a Kindle the reader is free for a lot of platforms.
"The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

239 by mrb7
Fukshot wrote:...A common reason that schools are targeted is that the shooters are often students or former students at those schools or have other focused animosity towards a person or persons at the school.
And the reason the shooters are young is because this is the common age for the onset of schizophrenia and associated disorders.

My cousin was 21 when he became psychotic the first time. That was in the late 60s. Granted he didn't shoot up his college cafeteria. But he scared the hell out of his instantly ex-girlfriend. Being the son of a relatively affluent circuit court judge kept him out of trouble until he was eventually committed a few incidents later, and he spent the remainder of his life, as well as the whole of his parents estate on medical care.

Now, these young violent offenders are extremely different from the two guys who tried to rob a jewelry store a couple of decades ago. I can't remember those details right now, but those guys were not young, were not mental health candidates, and were plain and simple bad guys.
"The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

240 by Collector1337
whitey wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:"it's our right and it's non-negotiable"
A closed mind is a terrible thing.
I also consider it close-minded when people insist on blaming an inanimate object for human failings.

Demonizing guns is an easy cop out so you don't have to think about the bigger problems of mental health in this country and a system that gives all this attention to these shootings. It's exactly what the shooter wants. All this attention contributes to mentally ill people who do this to make a statement. These rampage shooters have probably felt powerless and helpless their whole life. This is their way to finally feel like they have some control and to make other people feel as helpless and they have. All the media coverage and emotional knee jerk reactions reinforces this kind of thing for the future.
"It's our right and it's non-negotiable."

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

243 by kengrubb
M4Builder wrote:i'm not even here 10 minutes and get told Obama is going to ban guns and it's your fault for voting for him.
It's why I am so guarded about wandering over into RW Gunlandia these days. I'm seeing the RW knee jerk reactions, "It's you Obama voters!"

Any more, and I'm ready to fall back on, "If gun rights goes away, it will be on account of RW nutjobs so completely out of touch with reality having convinced the American people that they and they alone are the guardians of gun rights."

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

245 by ProD
Collector1337 wrote:
whitey wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:"it's our right and it's non-negotiable"
A closed mind is a terrible thing.
I also consider it close-minded when people insist on blaming an inanimate object for human failings.

Demonizing guns is an easy cop out so you don't have to think about the bigger problems of mental health in this country and a system that gives all this attention to these shootings. It's exactly what the shooter wants. All this attention contributes to mentally ill people who do this to make a statement. These rampage shooters have probably felt powerless and helpless their whole life. This is their way to finally feel like they have some control and to make other people feel as helpless and they have. All the media coverage and emotional knee jerk reactions reinforces this kind of thing for the future.

Collector, great post
:thumbup:
:thanks:

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

246 by Bisbee
I'm sure only a non-cable luddite like myself hasn't seen the photos of the victims on TV. However, it was truly heartbreaking for me to see the pictures and read the bio's of those who were killed in this rampage:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... r/1771725/

I think the reason why this tragedy has affected us, as a people, so dramatically is that the most innocent part of us has now been violated because of our inability to deal with the issue of gun violence... Instinctively, any one of us adults would have put our own bodies in the way to shield these little ones; the feeling that Dawn Hochsprung must have felt when lunging bare-handed toward the gunman. Looking at their photos now made me realize the magnitude of the tragedy for us on a spiritual level.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

247 by JinxRemoving
ProD wrote:
wlewisiii wrote:
No, I do not think that any teacher or administrator should be armed. As someone upthread mentioned, teachers are not trained to be SWAT officers - all guns in their hands will get you is more victims from the cross fire.

An armed & well trained security guard? That's very differerent, much more expensive & much more likely to have positive effect.
Hmmm, so "armed security" guard is cut from a different cloth than a "teacher" ?

Is a teacher PROHIBITED from being/getting "trained" ?

You make no sense.

You can go on Youtube and see hundreds of "trained police officers/veterans" shooting and can't hit a stationary target.
Where as, at shooting ranges I find teachers, mechanics, house wives, teenagers, hitting bullseyes at 15 to 100 yards.
When I'm cooking, I'm an excellent cook. When I'm driving, I'man excellent driver. When I'm cooking and driving at the same time, I'm doing a piss-poor job of both, and endangering people at the same time.

There are jobs that require attention, focus, and vigilance: teaching and security BOTH fall into that category, and expecting one person to fulfill both roles for a classroom is unrealistic and accepting of the fact that they willbe marginal at best in either duty.
"Smell the hot rain on the street; it could be love, it could be alcohol."

Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

248 by Inquisitor
JinxRemoving wrote:
ProD wrote:
wlewisiii wrote:
No, I do not think that any teacher or administrator should be armed. As someone upthread mentioned, teachers are not trained to be SWAT officers - all guns in their hands will get you is more victims from the cross fire.

An armed & well trained security guard? That's very differerent, much more expensive & much more likely to have positive effect.
Hmmm, so "armed security" guard is cut from a different cloth than a "teacher" ?

Is a teacher PROHIBITED from being/getting "trained" ?

You make no sense.

You can go on Youtube and see hundreds of "trained police officers/veterans" shooting and can't hit a stationary target.
Where as, at shooting ranges I find teachers, mechanics, house wives, teenagers, hitting bullseyes at 15 to 100 yards.
When I'm cooking, I'm an excellent cook. When I'm driving, I'man excellent driver. When I'm cooking and driving at the same time, I'm doing a piss-poor job of both, and endangering people at the same time.

There are jobs that require attention, focus, and vigilance: teaching and security BOTH fall into that category, and expecting one person to fulfill both roles for a classroom is unrealistic and accepting of the fact that they willbe marginal at best in either duty.
That's a pretty eloquent way to state that.

Re: Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting

249 by whitey
Collector1337 wrote:
whitey wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:"it's our right and it's non-negotiable"
A closed mind is a terrible thing.
I also consider it close-minded when people insist on blaming an inanimate object for human failings.

Demonizing guns is an easy cop out so you don't have to think about the bigger problems of mental health in this country and a system that gives all this attention to these shootings. It's exactly what the shooter wants. All this attention contributes to mentally ill people who do this to make a statement. These rampage shooters have probably felt powerless and helpless their whole life. This is their way to finally feel like they have some control and to make other people feel as helpless and they have. All the media coverage and emotional knee jerk reactions reinforces this kind of thing for the future.
I see what you did there, you put words in my mouth. I can do the same, when you say our rights are non negotiable then you're telling me your not open to any ideas of attacking a recurring problem. You're copy catting of the NRA's thoughts of arm everyone and we should have any weapon we desire as long as we can afford it gets old.
*DISCLAIMER* This post may have been made from a barstool.
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